The monk changes are nice, but if you want to shift the meta . . .

rabidfox

The People's Champion
Because xbows and (I believe) RXBs do
You fire less shots per minute with xbows with patience vs without it.

But given how wonk the game is with shots vanishing and/or the ammo not even going down because things don't fire at times; it's hard to test stuff sometimes. Look at the ammo counter here in this video:
Watch the ammo counter here vs the constant pew pew pew:
 
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droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
You fire less shots per minute with xbows with patience vs without it.
i've seen several people claim you can overcap xbows attack speed so even with the penalty it still puts you at cap

so I guess needs clarification, because it makes a huge difference if it applies before or after the cap cutoff
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
i've seen several people claim you can overcap xbows attack speed so even with the penalty it still puts you at cap

so I guess needs clarification, because it makes a huge difference if it applies before or after the cap cutoff
Consider the math. You have base attack speed + bonuses. So for example 100% base + 50% - 10% = 140% with vs 150% without. And then xbows are split between attack and reload phases; patience effects attack speed not reload time. So the % of shots per minute difference isn't huge between those two factors.
 

Ying

5000+ hours played
If you play DDO long enough, you'll recognize the meta cycle is just a circle. Something will always be better than other builds. Starting Aug 2019, Inquis was on top for about six months. Melee were on top. Nukers were on top. The cycle (and game) goes on.

In terms of people soloing R10, who cares? IMO anything that gets more people into high skulls is better for the game. People have been soloing R10s for years. We had a long-standing contest in guild to solo or duo speed run R10s. The majority of those builds were melee.

Patience isn't going to change. Devs need an incentive for player characters to attack slower to reduce lag. It's a quick and easy bandaid that affects every weapon build.
 

woq

Well-known member
If you play DDO long enough, you'll recognize the meta cycle is just a circle. Something will always be better than other builds. Starting Aug 2019, Inquis was on top for about six months. Melee were on top. Nukers were on top. The cycle (and game) goes on.

In terms of people soloing R10, who cares? IMO anything that gets more people into high skulls is better for the game. People have been soloing R10s for years. We had a long-standing contest in guild to solo or duo speed run R10s. The majority of those builds were melee.

Patience isn't going to change. Devs need an incentive for player characters to attack slower to reduce lag. It's a quick and easy bandaid that affects every weapon build.
Patience should change though, because it isn't doing that job you cite as the purpose for the bandaid which is reducing the attacks of certain weapon styles (throwers for example) - only makes them do above the curve damage undeservedly. I'd argue the same applies to xbows for that feat. I do not see why patience should not simply be locked out of ranged weapon access.
 

Guntango

Well-known member
If you play DDO long enough, you'll recognize the meta cycle is just a circle. Something will always be better than other builds. Starting Aug 2019, Inquis was on top for about six months. Melee were on top. Nukers were on top. The cycle (and game) goes on.

In terms of people soloing R10, who cares? IMO anything that gets more people into high skulls is better for the game. People have been soloing R10s for years. We had a long-standing contest in guild to solo or duo speed run R10s. The majority of those builds were melee.

Patience isn't going to change. Devs need an incentive for player characters to attack slower to reduce lag. It's a quick and easy bandaid that affects every weapon build.
Welcome back, old friend.

Soloing R10s is primarily about patience and time. A dual-wielding light hammer bard (still not quite meta) could pull it off with someone who's got a strong dislike for themselves and a bit of luck.
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
In terms of people soloing R10, who cares? IMO anything that gets more people into high skulls is better for the game. People have been soloing R10s for years. We had a long-standing contest in guild to solo or duo speed run R10s. The majority of those builds were melee.
The best is folks soloing the same content that's been solo'd for years with yet another 2 levels of power added on. That's kind of an issue for most content in the game right now; we gained power from 2 levels, better gear, more feats, more DP to spend, all while running the same exact quests (other than a few new quests).
 

The Narc2

Well-known member
Patience should change though, because it isn't doing that job you cite as the purpose for the bandaid which is reducing the attacks of certain weapon styles (throwers for example) - only makes them do above the curve damage undeservedly. I'd argue the same applies to xbows for that feat. I do not see why patience should not simply be locked out of ranged weapon access.
Patience is just correcting the issue that was created when they nerfed ranged attack speed years ago by limiting animation speed for the sake of lag. Range has been brought back inline with Melee as it should be so that drunk mediocre players can also play the game.

What I hard time understanding is why people who have control of their own gaming environment don’t just create their own groups with “no inquisitors” to raid push with. There must be some reason why they cant do this??
 

Lotoc

Well-known member
Patience isn't going to change. Devs need an incentive for player characters to attack slower to reduce lag. It's a quick and easy bandaid that affects every weapon build.
Except the animation capped builds that effectively take it with no tradeoff, which is why there are people saying it needs to change.
 

Teh_Troll

Master of Baiting
What I hard time understanding is why people who have control of their own gaming environment don’t just create their own groups with “no inquisitors” to raid push with. There must be some reason why they cant do this??
You can, and we occasionally do.
for example.

But it's not about that, it's about me imposing my will on the mammals.
 

The Narc2

Well-known member
You can, and we occasionally do.
for example.

But it's not about that, it's about me imposing my will on the mammals.
Well I guess the mammals at SSG just dont find your will all that imposing. I personally hadn’t noticed your will at all and even after you mentioning it, it still seems very irrelevant. Of course that simply could be because of my own self focus, always finding it hard to get my head thru the door.

I generally approve of the recent changes by SSG and to this I am happy with my current accord with them.
 

Dalsheel

Well-known member
Attack speed and reload speeds were made worse; double shot changes are to offset that...
Do you seriously believe this or are you saying it because you don't want your cruch build nerfed? I am honestly confused by your answer.
They nerfed their attack speed by 15% and they doubled or tripled their doublestrike... in what world is this not blatant powercreep? How can you possibly make such a statement with a straight face?

And on top of this, they also added 20% extra doubleshot to the Inquis tree to add insult to injury!

Let's examine a simple example: 100% doubleshot toon
- BEFORE changes, a RXB would (on average) get 1 doubleshot bolt per repeater volley. Likewise an Inquis would get 1 doubleshot bolt per volley.
- AFTER changes, the same toon would get 3 doubleshot bolts per repeater volley (200% increase than before). Likewise, an Inquis gets 2 doubleshot bolts per volley (100% increase)

Go ahead, tell me again how this is balanced with the attack speed nerf they got.

edit for spelling
 

Phoenicis

Savage's Husband
Do you seriously believe this or are you saying it because you don't want your cruch build nerfed? I am honestly confused by your answer.
They nerfed their attack speed by 15% and they doubled or tripled their doublestrike... in what world is this not blatant powercreep? How can you possibly make such a statement with a straight face?

And on top of this, they also added 20% extra doubleshot to the Inquis tree to add insult to injury!

Let's examine a simple example: 100% doubleshot toon
- BEFORE changes, a RXB would (on average) get 1 doubleshot bolt per repeater volley. Likewise an Inquis would get 1 doubleshot bolt per volley.
- AFTER changes, the same toon would get 3 doubleshot bolts per repeater volley (200% increase than before). Likewise, an Inquis gets 2 doubleshot bolts per volley (100% increase)

Go ahead, tell me again how this is balanced with the attack speed nerf they got.

edit for spelling
While I don't know (and they never published) the fire rate/reload speed reductions, it sure FEELS like alot more than 15%.

I am leveling an Arti thru heroics and the low-to-mid level game actively blows chunks now. Add the clunky target switching and bolts 'disappearing' issues and I don't care how much double-shot you have, stuff gets to you that never used to before the change.

This all may change as I get closer to 100% DS and epics, but right now I'm not loving arti, and regretting suggesting it elsewhere..
 

Lotoc

Well-known member
There's something a bit off about saying having your doubleshot doubled means your dps is doubled really, for a start doubleshot has a cap of 400% unlike melee's 100% and values of a gain in DS aren't linear.
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
Do you seriously believe this or are you saying it because you don't want your cruch build nerfed? I am honestly confused by your answer.
They nerfed their attack speed by 15% and they doubled or tripled their doublestrike... in what world is this not blatant powercreep? How can you possibly make such a statement with a straight face?

And on top of this, they also added 20% extra doubleshot to the Inquis tree to add insult to injury!

Let's examine a simple example: 100% doubleshot toon
- BEFORE changes, a RXB would (on average) get 1 doubleshot bolt per repeater volley. Likewise an Inquis would get 1 doubleshot bolt per volley.
- AFTER changes, the same toon would get 3 doubleshot bolts per repeater volley (200% increase than before). Likewise, an Inquis gets 2 doubleshot bolts per volley (100% increase)

Go ahead, tell me again how this is balanced with the attack speed nerf they got.

edit for spelling
Be sure to post your math for how level 1, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 are on repeaters (and dual shooters). Between reload changes, it feels pretty meh to me. And even at cap, I'd generally rather play on my alts than my arti; I do a bit more damage when I don't need to swap targets but dislike the long pauses between attacks.
 

erethizon1

Well-known member
While I don't know (and they never published) the fire rate/reload speed reductions, it sure FEELS like alot more than 15%.

I am leveling an Arti thru heroics and the low-to-mid level game actively blows chunks now. Add the clunky target switching and bolts 'disappearing' issues and I don't care how much double-shot you have, stuff gets to you that never used to before the change.

This all may change as I get closer to 100% DS and epics, but right now I'm not loving arti, and regretting suggesting it elsewhere..
One of the big problems with this game is people act like the entire game takes place at level 34 when, for most of us, the vast majority of the game takes place before level 34. Part of the reason I don't care that no one posts builds anymore is that almost every build is for a level 34 character that I will never play. I don't care what you are wearing at level 34. I care what you are wearing at level 4, 14, and 24 where the game actually takes place. But then most people just play R1 until they get to cap so their "uber" build may well be a garbage build until they get to cap because they are not actually trying to play difficult content until then. I am far more interested in a build that can handle high reaper heroics than high reaper legendary. I can pike legendary. I have to be the one to do the work in high reaper heroics.
 

FaceDancer

Olde Wurm
I think I remember commenting on repeaters during testing the changes for U70 that they "felt" terrible, but noted that damage was up a bit.

They feel REALLY bad @ lower levels.... very chuggy.
 

Lominal

Well-known member
Your math doesn't add up, at all.

Inquis went from getting 50% of their doubleshot score ( whatever it is ) to 100% , that alone is twice the dps they had. RXB went from 33% doubleshot to 100% which is three times as much dps.
so (meta) inquis went from 130 to 150 DS.

post update:
150% DS = 2.5 multiplier (on average)
pre update:
130% DS x 0.5 = 65% DS = 1.65 multiplier (again, on average) (51% more dps)

it very clearly did not double, and it would only double if you have infinite DS.
repeaters went 100->130 (roughly)

100% DS x 0.33 = 33% = 1.33 multiplier
130% DS = 2.3 multiplier (72% more dps, very clearly not tripled)
I dont have the number on repeaters but inquis went from using 210 bolts/min to 160 (using 2 fusilades), which is a 24% loss. Multiplicatively
1.51 x 0.76 = 1.1325 or 13.25% more dps

I recommend showing why math is wrong rather than just feeling/guessing what the answer is because it makes you look like you cant contribute to the discussion.
 
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