The monk changes are nice, but if you want to shift the meta . . .

[Jaspar]

That ends up with playing whackamole. There will always be "a best" unless everything is equal and it's hard to maintain equality and unique.

It's better to give older stuff unique stuff than play whackamole - game actually progresses that way.

The game needs whackamole. Regular minor changes to adjust things. So you dont end up with totally broken builds for 12 months then getting nuke nerfed and everyone collapses in a fit on the floor.

Reduce xbows a bit. Reduce DL a bit. Undo the R7+ caster nerf.

Then see how things go for a month. Then adjust again.

WOW now routinely makes 5% up or down changes to classes but even still, sometimes needs to do 40% up or down changes.

It cant be that hard. Look at the class breakdown of people running R1+ raids and R8+ dungeons. Look at the specific builds. See why those builds are being chosen. Its not just "but its the only build I ever want to play and if yku nerf it even 5% I quit".

Its FOTM for a reason.

Also, buff bows and assassin rogue please

 

[Vox]

Look at the class breakdown of people running R1+ raid

We pug out r1+ raids all the time. You might be suprised what turns up for them.

 

[Ying]

It cant be that hard. Look at the class breakdown of people running R1+ raids

You have to consider completion times and death count, as R1 raids by themselves are not a litmus test for build viability. Anyone can get carried through an R1 VoD completion that takes 30 minutes with many deaths. Blazing through a 7 min R1 VoD is a different beast.

Builds are also only part of the equation. Gear is a huge factor as well. When you have max filigree slots, raid filigree, and all rare filigree along with best in slot MD rare/raid gear, it's no comparison to someone who hasn't optimized their gear.

 

[Jaspar]

You have to consider completion times and death count, as R1 raids by themselves are not a litmus test for build viability. Anyone can get carried through an R1 VoD completion that takes 30 minutes with many deaths. Blazing through a 7 min R1 VoD is a different beast.

Builds are also only part of the equation. Gear is a huge factor as well. When you have max filigree slots, raid filigree, and all rare filigree along with best in slot MD rare/raid gear, it's no comparison to someone who hasn't optimized their gear.

For sure it requires some analysis of this. But again it should be basic analytics to do.

And yes, the comparison should be like-for-like. What is the difference between fresh 34 vs another fresh 34, maxed out 34 vs maxed out 34.

I dare say most of those maxed out 34s are probably settling on the broken builds too, rather than playing for flavour.

We pug out r1+ raids all the time. You might be suprised what turns up for them.

Are all 12 randoms? Or are 6 of you in broken builds more than happy to bring along 6 of anything else because you could likely 6 man it if you wanted and youre opening a charity for half a dozen people ?

 

[zandoe]

Fusillate etc is nerfed atleast to players outside USA. With my latency of 110 - 120+ half arrows, bolts, whatever are lost in the lag void.

 

[Jaspar]

Fusillate etc is nerfed atleast to players outside USA. With my latency of 110 - 120+ half arrows, bolts, whatever are lost in the lag void.

I wonder what that means for those of us in Australia who get 250ms to 300ms....

 

[Vox]

For sure it requires some analysis of this. But again it should be basic analytics to do.

And yes, the comparison should be like-for-like. What is the difference between fresh 34 vs another fresh 34, maxed out 34 vs maxed out 34.

I dare say most of those maxed out 34s are probably settling on the broken builds too, rather than playing for flavour.



Are all 12 randoms? Or are 6 of you in broken builds more than happy to bring along 6 of anything else because you could likely 6 man it if you wanted and youre opening a charity for half a dozen people ?

Sometimes I'll just start with me on group & just put up reaper raids accepting anyone. Kinda expect deaths and chaos but honestly it's just for fun.

 

[Vox]

I wonder what that means for those of us in Australia who get 250ms to 300ms....

270ms ping in NZ, Cormyr was 'only' 180

 

[Jaspar]

270ms ping in NZ, Cormyr was 'only' 180

Yeah, they really should go with a west coast data centre !!

Then we'd be around 150ms.

 

[Shear-buckler]

We don't need Reaper 50. We just need people that want a challenge to not purposely design their characters to avoid all challenge. Most builds are still challenged, though you have previously called such builds "bad builds" and not "real builds" because they didn't do everything possible to avoid being challenged.

We can let people that want the game to be easy continue to play with their super strong builds {though it would be nice if they didn't make posts about the game needing to be harder while they purposely play on easy mode).

Pick one, nerfs or reaper 50.

 

[Kyrr]

A competitive mindset is a mental disorder. They compete over everything even when no competition is taking place. You are, of course, right. But they can't stand anyone being better than they are, so they have to call for nerfs to others (or even to themselves if they feel obligated to play what is strongest but want to play something else).

I completely disagree with this take. You have the player base who challenges and pushes themselves (more specifically Lava Divers and Surprised Pikachu on Argonnessen) and then you have the casual playerbase who just plays what they want. The problem is when a casual player gets put on a broken build that does insane amounts of numbers than it should. I am NOT discrediting the casual player, these types of builds have been nerfed in the past, and for a good reason.

The developers have said themselves that builds or classes are in a nice place where they'd like them to be, then 6 months later when gear and fine enhancement tuning comes around-gets nerfed because the build or the class they released is heavily overtuned. This has happened to Warlock, Inquisitive, Wolf, etc.

I do think the leveling sequence for the crossbows is absolute jank and tuning them down would probably make them feel like throwers when leveling, but there is no reason they should be the strongest dps at endgame while being able to hit the S key to avoid combat/getting hit.

FOR REFERENCE - R10 FoM w/ optional (completed by Pika) contained 4 crossbow dps at a bare minimum. If you don't feel like it's overtuned; then that's on you. (some of the players are the infamous 17 favored soul 2 artificer 1 barbarian NOW because it's broken atm)

 

[Jaspar]

The problem is when a casual player gets put on a broken build that does insane amounts of numbers than it should. I am NOT discrediting the casual player, these types of builds have been nerfed in the past, and for a good reason.

I liked your post but this confused me. Is it bad for casuals to use broken builds?

Is it only non-casuals who can use broken builds? Otherwise surely any time there is a broken build it should be fixed - no matter who plays it.

And yes, when dungeons or raids have a flood of particular builds then this is a sign something is wrong. The shame is even if SSG cared they dont seem to have the people who can fix it.

 

[Kyrr]

I liked your post but this confused me. Is it bad for casuals to use broken builds?

Is it only non-casuals who can use broken builds? Otherwise surely any time there is a broken build it should be fixed - no matter who plays it.

And yes, when dungeons or raids have a flood of particular builds then this is a sign something is wrong. The shame is even if SSG cared they dont seem to have the people who can fix it.

I don't think it's bad for casuals to use broken builds. The problem is that when I jump into a casual raid and things melt before I can touch them because everyone is playing a broken build is bad for the health of the game.

Now, I don't really play this game anymore, after seeing missing projectiles; constant lag in both heroics and end game; and the constant over nerfs or alterations to unnecessary classes is absurd.

Congratulations to the monk fix, you added more [REDACTED] buttons to use. You solved NO problems with that class.

 

[woq]

The numbers I've seen show repeaters went from ~260 down to ~160 or 0.62 (38% loss). (Although I haven't tested this myself, so feel free to correct if someone has). Resulting in 1.72 * 0.62 ~= +6% dps.

This is why I think talk of attack speeds and patience nerfs are going in the wrong direction. Yes its a bit silly that patience doesn't affect ranged or reload speeds like it does melee, bbut xbow base dps is not the issue. The issue is the exponential scaling you get at cap. Any nerfs should be targeted at the multi-hit active attacks and/or endgame multipliers, not attack speed or base auto attack dps. Xbows definitely do not need any nerfs in heroics.

Patience nerfs would indirectly but effectively target the overperforming active attacks in Hunt's End and Pluck; abilities that have greatly improved threat range and high damage multipliers, that are further amplified by Patience on a separate scaler for free.

 

[EinarMal]

I don't think it has to be that drastic if you want to make some positive changes.

1. Make patience melee only (at least exclude crossbows/throwers), if it helps bows you could add them to the allowed weapon list
2. Get rid of shoot first DOT, its good enough just as an AOE shot
3. Get rid of R7+ caster nerf in reaper

Now all three styles are much closer at least in R10 quests.

Then you can target specific over/under performing classes, maybe tone down a little Dragonlord, make other completely weak classes like Warlock a bit better etc...

 

[DBZ]

They never un nerf good luck

Admit there wrong lol

 

[Guntango]

The problem is that when I jump into a casual raid and things melt before I can touch them because everyone is playing a broken build is bad for the health of the game.

That's not a broken build problem though, it's a DDO value prop: "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind."

Build for flavor if it makes you happy, but don't cry nerf when your spicy gumbo underperforms compared to efficient players who build with purpose. Maybe join a spicy gumbo guild.

 

[jacko]

Sure! Capstone VKF should IMO give you less than a class tree, which is often not the case currently. If you put a universal tree on a relevant class, you'll also get DPS trees from said class to support it (contrast like making a melee Cleric, where you have one useful class tree).

Also from what I've seen most melees are dipping VKF (capstone VKF discussed below). In the same way that many/most ranged are/will be dipping Inquis for 5% DS once they fix C2. Dipping for utility access is a huge part of universal trees (action boosts, trances, stat-to-X, GCS) which is great! I like it a lot! But if you're capstoning in a universal tree you're able to change your class split in ways beneficial to you, and lose much less for it (vs like a Barb dipping for a trance loses capstone access).

Personally I think it's a design flaw that many melees not using VKF weapons are using VKF capstone; I'm down for whacky builds, but that should be a flavor or off-meta choice, not one of the best options available in a lot of cases.

EG: a dagger Barb 20 being able to pick meaningfully between VKF and FB seems fine, but a greatsword Barb should not be seriously considering VKF vs FB capstone.

FWIW I agree with all of this.

 

[jacko]

Oh no, because of your philosophy, a much deeper nerf to the Vistani is needed than nerfing the capstone (which by the way, yes, is an op capstone). Vistani gives a lot of good buffs, which together make it a tree as robust as the Inquisitive, and with the added bonus that its base weapons are not as useless as Xbows are without the help of the tree. And that's not to mention that everyone wants the haste boost, and according to your philosophy, everyone using something is IP. So nerf, nerf, nerf.

Nobody is using Vistan weapons? But what world do you play in? Kukri is the weapon of the moment, the vast majority of melee players are using Kukris, and they love them for the Vistan buffs and their excellent crit. So because of your philosophy... Kukris need a serious nerf too.

We could keep nerfing EDs, it's not fair that melee epic strikes are so good when casters' are so bad. And let's keep nerfing Fury's excellent healing. Why does such a robust dps tree give healing? Devs, according to these people that shouldn't be for other playstyles, so apply it to melee too. Nerf it!

Hey, I'm starting to like this whole nerf thing, especially since these are things that are really too powerful. I could go on listing a few more things that need nerfing.

But instead, I'm just going to point out that Inquisitive is the way it is because it makes a weapon that is 100% useless and no one used as a support weapon viable. Vistani was meant to be a support for weapons that were weaker than other melee weapons (though not as useless as xbows), but it's true that more builds are using it than daggers and krukris. I guess I have to agree with you, what devs have to do is make sure that no one else but those builds can use the tree. Fine, devs, do all this. At least then the whiny melee players on this forum will have something real to complain about. Just think, dev, that right now SWF dominates the ENTIRE melee landscape, that vistan is being OVERUSED, that kukris are already boring with so much abundance. People who complain about other playstyles having things overrepresented should admit that these nerfs are fair.

And when you're done with these nerfs, move on to ki bolt, which is completely stupid.

Pretty much agree with most of that too.

 

[Teh_Troll]

That's not a broken build problem though, it's a DDO value prop: "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind."

Build for flavor if it makes you happy, but don't cry nerf when your spicy gumbo underperforms compared to efficient players who build with purpose. Maybe join a spicy gumbo guild.

That sounds like a mature and healthy minded attitude.

Explains why I feel the opposite . . .