The monk changes are nice, but if you want to shift the meta . . .

[Monkey_Archer]

Personally I think there are few easy changes that I would implement:
1. Patience only applies to melee weapons. Only one ranged weapon style takes the speed penalty from patience (bow) and bows taking it is a dps loss
2. Remove shoot first as an aoe attack. I the biggest difference is that having a 6s CD (classless) aoe attack that can do 50-70% of a pack's health in r10. If the issue persists they could look into scaling shoot first, or altering the other aoe attacks

This is reasonable. Having essentially quick cutter at range at level 3 is pretty nuts. The multiple hit attacks are a balance issue in general, but scalpels are better than hammers.

 

[DBZ]

Scalpels are what they use to push the nuke button

 

[Vertigo]

This is reasonable. Having essentially quick cutter at range at level 3 is pretty nuts. The multiple hit attacks are a balance issue in general, but scalpels are better than hammers.

Its not as good as quick cuttter -- with 400 rp on the ship the ticks are 2k. and it doesn't stack 3x....

Artis got a similar attack but 10s CD at tier 3 (or 12 AP).

Melee builds are still king til about 12ish -- so it isn´t "nuts"

 

[Lotoc]

One thing to keep in mind is when the initial AoE shot pass happened and hunts end was turned into an active attack, and in the strike pass fatesinger strikes' sonic damage was fixed to scale with doublestrike/doubleshot inquis and repeaters were actually pretty heavily buffed already due to how well they use each of them, nobody really wanted to look at the relative dps changes from those but I'd argue crossbows at that point were at least on par with bows.

Now the xbow pass has pushed them drastically ahead.

 

[Teh_Troll]

This is reasonable. Having essentially quick cutter at range at level 3 is pretty nuts. The multiple hit attacks are a balance issue in general, but scalpels are better than hammers.

Do I need to find ANOTHER MC Hammer gif?

 

[The Narc2]

Do I need to find ANOTHER MC Hammer gif?

Will it hammer Melees, they are so much more powerful then casters and ranged at standing toe to toe with raid bosses. It makes being a ranged or a caster feel unnecessary in raids, why even bring a caster or ranged to a raid now with the way melees are soooooo overpowered now with perfect gear sets and past lives.

If the rant above sounds familiar to anyone then you have completely read between the lines on the point being made here.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

One thing to keep in mind is when the initial AoE shot pass happened and hunts end was turned into an active attack, and in the strike pass fatesinger strikes' sonic damage was fixed to scale with doublestrike/doubleshot inquis and repeaters were actually pretty heavily buffed already due to how well they use each of them, nobody really wanted to look at the relative dps changes from those ...

I'm fairly certain I even posted the math on those buffs amid the sea of players crying about it as a nerf :unsure:

 

[Teh_Troll]

I'm fairly certain I even posted the math on those buffs amid the sea of players crying about it as a nerf :unsure:

 

[Kyrr]

Change smange. Crossbows being this powerful is insanely stupid and bad game design.

ANYTHING being that much better than EVERYTHING else needs to be hammered hard. Throw in shifters to if they are over-performing also.

Nerf 'em all.

I remember those times (people complaining about DPS casters..)

 

[GrizzlyOso]

If you were bringing THF barb to push raids before, then inquis didnt kill off that play style. THF in push raids hasn't been good for years.


Personally I think there are few easy changes that I would implement:
1. Patience only applies to melee weapons. Only one ranged weapon style takes the speed penalty from patience (bow) and bows taking it is a dps loss
2. Remove shoot first as an aoe attack. I the biggest difference is that having a 6s CD (classless) aoe attack that can do 50-70% of a pack's health in r10. If the issue persists they could look into scaling shoot first, or altering the other aoe attacks

I think a lot of people are overestimating how far ahead xbows are currently. Several thrower builds were historically competitive with shifter (albeit squishier) and I never heard/saw anyone complain about that, which is why I think the issues is the aoe. If you want raw math, Inquis lost around 20% of their dps from the speed changes, and gained around 40% from the DS changes. These are roughly multiplicative, meaning that you end up 12% ahead of pre update inquis. The xbow changes alone can't account for the numbers that are currently in game

Now HANG ON - this very forum has been whining about THF dragonlord domination the entire year.

 

[Lotoc]

Now HANG ON - this very forum has been whining about THF dragonlord domination the entire year.

which is funny because 2hf dragonlord dps is kinda garbage
Like 2hf is the lowest dps melee style and dragon lord is lower dps than kensei, frenzied berserker, wolves, assassin rogues etc.
Dlord just has good cc compared to the abysmal standard for melees and that has been enough to make it the most despised class since the release.

 

[Teh_Troll]

Now HANG ON - this very forum has been whining about THF dragonlord domination the entire year.

Screenshot or it didn't happen.

 

[The Narc2]

If your Melee build isnt keeping up with ranged toons, there might be something lacking with your build and gear. Post your melee build thats underperforming and people will be able to provide suggestions on how it can be improved.

 

[Kyrr]

If your Melee build isnt keeping up with ranged toons, there might be something lacking with your build and gear. Post your melee build thats underperforming and people will be able to provide suggestions on how it can be improved.

Ranged (more specifically Inquisitive) is extremely overtuned; this isn't an issue with melee characters.

 

[SpartanKiller13]

If you were bringing THF barb to push raids before, then inquis didnt kill off that play style. THF in push raids hasn't been good for years.

I think a lot of people are overestimating how far ahead xbows are currently. Several thrower builds were historically competitive with shifter (albeit squishier) and I never heard/saw anyone complain about that, which is why I think the issues is the aoe. If you want raw math, Inquis lost around 20% of their dps from the speed changes, and gained around 40% from the DS changes. These are roughly multiplicative, meaning that you end up 12% ahead of pre update inquis. The xbow changes alone can't account for the numbers that are currently in game

Lol only our first set, before we started actually getting anywhere. If it was like 80% as good I'd bring it anyway, but it's not. I just like THF more personally.

I played a Shuri thrower this set, wasn't inquis but was disgusting output especially given the safety. Did I die? Absolutely, but mostly due to user error or after the tanks were dead. I would be completely fine with some heroic stuff being added to them and some endgame hits that ideally get DXB/RXB as well. Play at cap felt very overtuned, while everything before that felt very mediocre at best.

I think the playerbase is also more aware of better build/class combinations, DS focus has shifted builds, and ED prioritization has changed esp with Hunt's End change pushing people to FS (which was previously good, but underrated). I'm sure there are more factors, but the DPS benchmarks I have from my buddy who *does* play Inquis went up by >12% across the update (around 30% based on his Yegora bench). I'm sure some of that had to do with build/curse/etc optimization as well (since the optimization changed when the update hit), but that's a lot larger gain than you are representing with just the base math comparing identical pre- and post- builds.

I agree, the heavy AoE is a bit of a problem with a traditionally more single-target style; I'm just not sure that alone is the issue.

Compounding that, the clunkiness/bad gamefeel many have complained about means that nerfing DXB/RXB needs to come with some softening so it's not just a straight hit to a style many are currently feeling bad about, but at the same time maybe leaving competitive alternatives.

If your Melee build isnt keeping up with ranged toons, there might be something lacking with your build and gear. Post your melee build thats underperforming and people will be able to provide suggestions on how it can be improved.

If melee is significantly outperforming ranged DPS-wise I'll consider it, but if they're remotely comparable in benchmarks ranged is vastly better for most push raids I've been involved in. No point in risking extra damage, much easier to kite stuff if necessary while still outputting, no problems with floor mechanics, boss cleaves, AoE effects, etc etc etc. Also much easier to maintain buffer HP (like affirmation swapping) outside melee range.

Does this not line up with your experience?

 

[The Narc2]

One of the best players in the game holds that record on a melee.

Any scrub can will be more useful in more situations being an inquisitive.

It is broken.

But Kyrr, the OP in that created the thread is suggesting that the best players with the best melee builds are being out performed by ranged. I understand that it is possible that his opinion of the best players is subjective, but posting the melee build and its gear that is a top notch melee build that should be consider powerful may not actually be that powerful. Until we actually have a look at the build and gear he is referring to and whether or not it can be improved we will be unable to make a proper evaluation to compare the current balance of the two.

 

[Bjond]

If they honestly cared about the performance issues, they'd have done the same change to Repeater & Dual as they did to thrower and melee doublestrike: convert the real extra extra attacks to doubleshot multipliers. Leave the animations and sound-fx the same to give the illusion of 2 or 3 real shots (and it saves effort).

Then they could go back to the fast shooting fun versions and apply some better tuning, including altering NHB to apply extra doubleshot instead of an actual rate increase. If they cap rate at 86/m to match throw and bow, all the other tunings become MUCH easier across the various ranged weapons, too.

 

[Guntango]

Change smange.

Toppie.

 

[Teh_Troll]

But Kyrr, the OP in that created the thread is suggesting that the best players with the best melee builds are being out performed by ranged. I understand that it is possible that his opinion of the best players is subjective, but posting the melee build and its gear that is a top notch melee build that should be consider powerful may not actually be that powerful. Until we actually have a look at the build and gear he is referring to and whether or not it can be improved we will be unable to make a proper evaluation to compare the current balance of the two.

I'm nowhere near the best, I'm an old drunk who falls asleep during raids . . . which I can do and have done MANY times on a ranged toon and still contribute just fine.

When I'm talking about top players I am not including myself in the ranks, I'm mediocre.

 

[Phoenicis]

And 6 days ago many "monk" players were complaining about monk damage getting nerfed.

There are many who play this game who aren't particularly intelligent. Fortunately for those special mammals they have my guidance.

A little late, but I wanted to address this specifically as one of the loudest complainers about the monk changes.

I never ONCE claimed the DPS was going down for monks, though I was skeptical it was going up by much. My entire complaint was and remains the removal of 20+ free abilities from monks, only to return some for (significant in some cases) AP in the enhancement trees, while others were removed completely and still others locked behind an archtype.

And yes, removing free abilities and making you pay AP to get some of them back is a nerf. (and you can never get all of them, as many are on multi selectors now so you have to pick one or the other, even at level 32 in GMOF)