The monk changes are nice, but if you want to shift the meta . . .

[Tanis]

R-xbow isn't so much weak as clunky.

Holding down the LMB is no longer a smooth(ish) playstyle.
Now it's <target> <click> <wait for fire & reload animation> <target> <click>
active attacks can be subbed in for <click>
You can target early, but If you don't wait for the animations to finish before clicking again things get 'lost', potentially for up to nearly six seconds it seems.

It’s weak in early levels compared to what it once was

It’s stronger at mid to endgame however I agree it clunky

Non active attack shots are disappointingly lame in comparison to active attacks

It feels like playing a slow loading grenade launcher when it use to feel like playing with a 3round burst

 

[pirotessa]

For all those saying inquisitive isn't a big deal, please share other FvS builds that are soloing R10 anything . To an unrelated thread, for all the casters who say caster DPS is down it's because obviously you aren't playing inquisitive.

For burst DPS nothing compares to NHB/EF and IA.

 

[SpartanKiller13]

there are no accurate benchmarks in ddo because even things like the worm or illithid giants have 20-40% hp variance (it's the worst in raid bosses). My other personal beef with certain benchmarks is that anything under 3-4 minutes of dps is too focused on burst windows (epic moment, fusilade, 10k stars) vs sustained (which is what is used in raids). I can simulate active attacks/rotation and that might come out to 30, but a large part of that is the new actives.

Inquis was also pretty far behind the meta (at least 20%) pre MD, even a 40% buff wouldn't put it as far ahead of the other top builds as people are claiming (12% ahead with a 40% buff). If SSG does feel inquis is too strong, it only needs to be around a 10-15% nerf to bring in line with other dps (for reference reintroducing the DS scaling would be a 40% nerf). Personally, I like when many builds are viable or close to competitive. The DS change was absolutely necessary to make inquis useable/competitive, and the effort is better spent fixing the other aspects that makes inquis strong (patience, imbue dice, aoe actives, etc).

Can run the benchmark more times to reduce variance; average of 10 runs both ways would reduce error via HP RNG to more like 5% or something, which would be sufficient to show a 10% vs 20% vs 30% difference visibly. Can also do math if HP is visible.

A 1-minute bench works just fine with 10k & fusillade, given their respective CD's. You can also run a benchmark without using burst window or charged abilities, just checking basics (+13% or so) and sustainable actives (like most attacks, 10k, most trances, etc).

Burst window being buffed is also very visible to other players though. Perception is a big part of the DPS balance equation esp when people are asking for buffs/nerfs.

I don't just want a straight huge nerf (like re-introducing full DS reduction), I'd like a power redistribution and a small nerf. Also personally I think Inquis as a universal tree should be a little behind class trees; like ~90% as strong, IMO.

It’s weak in early levels compared to what it once was

It’s stronger at mid to endgame however I agree it clunky

Non active attack shots are disappointingly lame in comparison to active attacks

It feels like playing a slow loading grenade launcher when it use to feel like playing with a 3round burst

This is my problem; it's more DPS but feels generally worse, so there isn't a clean fix. Maybe buffing the damage of basics while cutting down actives a bit?

 

[Anurakh]

Also personally I think Inquis as a universal tree should be a little behind class trees; like ~90% as strong, IMO.

So do we apply the same to Vistani, the tree that currently every self-respecting melee and their cats use?

This philosophy would require a serious nerf to Vistani.

 

[SpartanKiller13]

So do we apply the same to Vistani, the tree that currently every self-respecting melee and their cats use?

This philosophy would require a serious nerf to Vistani.

Sure! Capstone VKF should IMO give you less than a class tree, which is often not the case currently. If you put a universal tree on a relevant class, you'll also get DPS trees from said class to support it (contrast like making a melee Cleric, where you have one useful class tree).

Also from what I've seen most melees are dipping VKF (capstone VKF discussed below). In the same way that many/most ranged are/will be dipping Inquis for 5% DS once they fix C2. Dipping for utility access is a huge part of universal trees (action boosts, trances, stat-to-X, GCS) which is great! I like it a lot! But if you're capstoning in a universal tree you're able to change your class split in ways beneficial to you, and lose much less for it (vs like a Barb dipping for a trance loses capstone access).

Personally I think it's a design flaw that many melees not using VKF weapons are using VKF capstone; I'm down for whacky builds, but that should be a flavor or off-meta choice, not one of the best options available in a lot of cases.

EG: a dagger Barb 20 being able to pick meaningfully between VKF and FB seems fine, but a greatsword Barb should not be seriously considering VKF vs FB capstone.

 

[Tanis]

So do we apply the same to Vistani, the tree that currently every self-respecting melee and their cats use?

This philosophy would require a serious nerf to Vistani.

Inquisitive has some good stuff in there but what I can’t stand about it spending points on nothing to get something later

Problem is that there isn’t a good enough alternative

 

[Vertigo]

Xbow was strong at early game before now it’s been flipped to be weak early & strong later

no there are only weak players. (and arguably end game builds)

 

[Anurakh]

Sure! Capstone VKF should IMO give you less than a class tree, which is often not the case currently. If you put a universal tree on a relevant class, you'll also get DPS trees from said class to support it (contrast like making a melee Cleric, where you have one useful class tree).

Also from what I've seen most melees are dipping VKF (capstone VKF discussed below). In the same way that many/most ranged are/will be dipping Inquis for 5% DS once they fix C2. Dipping for utility access is a huge part of universal trees (action boosts, trances, stat-to-X, GCS) which is great! I like it a lot! But if you're capstoning in a universal tree you're able to change your class split in ways beneficial to you, and lose much less for it (vs like a Barb dipping for a trance loses capstone access).

Personally I think it's a design flaw that many melees not using VKF weapons are using VKF capstone; I'm down for whacky builds, but that should be a flavor or off-meta choice, not one of the best options available in a lot of cases.

EG: a dagger Barb 20 being able to pick meaningfully between VKF and FB seems fine, but a greatsword Barb should not be seriously considering VKF vs FB capstone.

Oh no, because of your philosophy, a much deeper nerf to the Vistani is needed than nerfing the capstone (which by the way, yes, is an op capstone). Vistani gives a lot of good buffs, which together make it a tree as robust as the Inquisitive, and with the added bonus that its base weapons are not as useless as Xbows are without the help of the tree. And that's not to mention that everyone wants the haste boost, and according to your philosophy, everyone using something is IP. So nerf, nerf, nerf.

Nobody is using Vistan weapons? But what world do you play in? Kukri is the weapon of the moment, the vast majority of melee players are using Kukris, and they love them for the Vistan buffs and their excellent crit. So because of your philosophy... Kukris need a serious nerf too.

We could keep nerfing EDs, it's not fair that melee epic strikes are so good when casters' are so bad. And let's keep nerfing Fury's excellent healing. Why does such a robust dps tree give healing? Devs, according to these people that shouldn't be for other playstyles, so apply it to melee too. Nerf it!

Hey, I'm starting to like this whole nerf thing, especially since these are things that are really too powerful. I could go on listing a few more things that need nerfing.

But instead, I'm just going to point out that Inquisitive is the way it is because it makes a weapon that is 100% useless and no one used as a support weapon viable. Vistani was meant to be a support for weapons that were weaker than other melee weapons (though not as useless as xbows), but it's true that more builds are using it than daggers and krukris. I guess I have to agree with you, what devs have to do is make sure that no one else but those builds can use the tree. Fine, devs, do all this. At least then the whiny melee players on this forum will have something real to complain about. Just think, dev, that right now SWF dominates the ENTIRE melee landscape, that vistan is being OVERUSED, that kukris are already boring with so much abundance. People who complain about other playstyles having things overrepresented should admit that these nerfs are fair.

And when you're done with these nerfs, move on to ki bolt, which is completely stupid.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

Hey, I'm starting to like this whole nerf thing, especially since these are things that are really too powerful. I could go on listing a few more things that need nerfing.

While I think you are being intentionally sarcastic, you are un-ironically correct. Both Inquisitive and Vistani massively overcompensate for otherwise less desirable weapon choices to the point that kukri and xbow are used by probably 50% of endgame builds now.

 

[Mindos]

We need to have flavor of the week (weak) bonus. Instead of Hairdye 10 percent off, why not have fireball does 150 percent damage this weekend? Etc
You can shake up the fun with some random chaos. Next week all bards have 25 percent more sonic spellpower, after that next week everyone gets +1 dc for every 2 caster levels, etc.

 

[rabidfox]

We need to have flavor of the week (weak) bonus. Instead of Hairdye 10 percent off, why not have fireball does 150 percent damage this weekend? Etc
You can shake up the fun with some random chaos. Next week all bards have 25 percent more sonic spellpower, after that next week everyone gets +1 dc for every 2 caster levels, etc.

"I'm the best" weekend bonus, where the party leader does 10% more damage and everyone else in the group does 50% less.

 

[FaceDancer]

I would suggest a Wild Magic Farting Butterfly event (now with 500% more farting butterflies...) With massive lag inducing butterfly farting going on... They will have to nerf X-bows to compensate.

 

[Unk]

I am differently not the best player. I don’t run high reaper quest. I am luck if I can solo reaper 5 quests. I happen to have a inquisitor and a wolf shadar kai at level 27 both have terrible gear but I took them into giant hold quests on reaper 2 and kept track of completion times. The wolf on average complted every quest about 2 minutes faster then the inquisitor. Both felt equal in my opinion.
Also been running a inquisitor on cormyr and I have been running alot with a EK and have been pretty equal in the kill count.

Just my observations

 

[Lotoc]

To be honest vistani and inquisitive are actually problems, yes the weapons they support are underperformers without them but they overcompensate drastically to the point that they make their respective weapons top tier edging out other staples - bows and great xbows are pretty much dead, 2handers outside of druid form builds pale in comparison to swf kukri, the only melee weapons outside of dagger/kukri that are actually good in a meta sense are handwraps (and handaxes for swashdl/swashbarb sdk builds).
In fact until kukris were added to vistani even rogues didn't want them when assassin is designed around kukris or daggers, that is the difference vistani makes.

I'd argue the problem is more that we aren't getting universal trees anymore to support other neglected weapon types though, is anything more redundant than shortswords, clubs, greatclubs etc.? A lot of weapon types are in a state where them even being on loot tables is a detriment to player experience.

But vistani could definitely afford to lose the 20 melee power universally and gain it back only when wielding daggers/kukris, if you're going for the capstone in the tree it should actually be relevant to actually using that tree.

Vistani capstone is a drastic issue due to it having a higher power budget than pretty much every other class based martial capstone besides maybe Knight of the Chalice and Henshin Mystic.
As we all know attack speed is a very important but rare stat to get stacking quantities of, VKF capstone in most cases is simply so much better than your class options that it actually creates a situation that for dps multiclassing isn't so much an option but the default for the top end builds. 20 fighter and 20 barb are just redundant for dps.

The issue though is more that the majority of capstones are weak; look at warchanter, look at warpriest/warsoul, look at vanguard, sacred fist, dark hunter, tempest, swashbuckler and so on...
There isn't really an argument those capstones can win vs Blade Master.
Yes, the top dps build is melee, and blade master is a large part of that.
The top dps build is the kensei fighter razorclaw that takes a level in fvs for a trance, a level in warlock for an aura that's only there to stack arcane warrior

And the tradeoff for that is not being able to take kensei capstone that's weaker than Blade Master anyway.

all around, melee class based capstones could do with a buff because Blade Master has created a situation where taking 20 levels in your main class and taking the capstone in your main tree is the exception.

 

[The Narc2]

“Missile rocks” week, missiles receive a 10% extra crit chance, while casters take add an extra second to all spell cooldowns and all melees receive a 50% movement speed debuff so they have no chance of getting to any targets at all.

 

[SpartanKiller13]

Oh no, because of your philosophy, a much deeper nerf to the Vistani is needed than nerfing the capstone (which by the way, yes, is an op capstone). Vistani gives a lot of good buffs, which together make it a tree as robust as the Inquisitive, and with the added bonus that its base weapons are not as useless as Xbows are without the help of the tree. And that's not to mention that everyone wants the haste boost, and according to your philosophy, everyone using something is OP. So nerf, nerf, nerf.

Nobody is using Vistan weapons? But what world do you play in? Kukri is the weapon of the moment, the vast majority of melee players are using Kukris, and they love them for the Vistan buffs and their excellent crit. So because of your philosophy... Kukris need a serious nerf too.

We could keep nerfing EDs, it's not fair that melee epic strikes are so good when casters' are so bad. And let's keep nerfing Fury's excellent healing. Why does such a robust dps tree give healing? Devs, according to these people that shouldn't be for other playstyles, so apply it to melee too. Nerf it!

Hey, I'm starting to like this whole nerf thing, especially since these are things that are really too powerful. I could go on listing a few more things that need nerfing.

But instead, I'm just going to point out that Inquisitive is the way it is because it makes a weapon that is 100% useless and no one used as a support weapon viable. Vistani was meant to be a support for weapons that were weaker than other melee weapons (though not as useless as xbows), but it's true that more builds are using it than daggers and krukris. I guess I have to agree with you, what devs have to do is make sure that no one else but those builds can use the tree. Fine, devs, do all this. At least then the whiny melee players on this forum will have something real to complain about. Just think, dev, that right now SWF dominates the ENTIRE melee landscape, that vistan is being OVERUSED, that kukris are already boring with so much abundance. People who complain about other playstyles having things overrepresented should admit that these nerfs are fair.

And when you're done with these nerfs, move on to ki bolt, which is completely stupid.

Ignoring the tone, I'm pretty down with most of the stuff on the list lmao. Just gotta also buff the underperformers, also important. I would generally start with smaller nerfs and larger buffs though, but YMMV. Devs tend to overnerf and that's also a problem.

But hear me out, we can call it "balance" and use it to make the various styles a bit more equal! Not totally equal, because that'd be boring, but with meaningful tradeoffs and interesting choices!

If everyone is using something (that wasn't just released/updated) it's almost certainly overpowered. And IMO should be nerfed. If nobody's using something it's almost certainly underpowered (or has terrible QoL). And IMO should be buffed (or fixed, if QoL). Representation is a fast (but inaccurate) way of getting a feel of how strong things are.

Take Quick Cutter down a notch. Bring Shadowstrike up a bit. Take FS strikes down a bit. Buff Dragonbreath. Nerf Fury T4 scream heal, buff Fury mantle. Nerf Inexorable Advance, buff EA strikes. Nerf VKF capstone, buff Swashbuckler capstone. This is easy, I can go for days! Tone Inquis down a bit, bring up throwing darts.

Vistani and Inquis should be support/backup options, so you can play a class you don't like or level a build that levels poorly while having reasonable output. Making underutilized weapons viable is great! Making them Best Choice Available is not great! They should be B-A tier depending on how well your build supports them, not clearly better than whatever your class is doing.

It's like THF. SoS/ESoS/Falchions dominate the meta because of their crit profile. I'd love a reason to use a greatclub - if it was slightly less DPS but had inherent CC, would be worth considering (also they're funny).

But instead, I'm just going to point out that ki bolt is the way that it is because it makes an ability that is 100% useless and no one uses as a spell viable. Ki bolt was meant to be an offensive spell dealing damage as a support for gish casters that were weaker than other casters (they're really bad though), but it's true that more builds are using it as a vehicle for Draconic Mantle. I guess I have to agree with you, what devs have to do is nerf it into uselessness. Fine devs, do all this. At least then whiny (insert whatever you want) players on this forum will have something real to complain about. Just think, dev, that right now... wait, ki bolt does not dominate the melee, ranged, or caster landscape. Hold up a second, I'm struggling to follow the script. Where are all these ki bolt builds pumping absurd DPS numbers? Are you here to link my own screenshots at me?

Lmao having both the biggest numbers on the ki bolt thread and a dozen builds thereof (the best of which I took push raiding), I'd much rather have (or play) an Inquis or RXBow or Shuri build when push raiding I've discussed it in that thread and other places extensively as well, should you care to know more.

 

[Teh_Troll]

If you notice, the complaints always come from the same melee players who feel threatened as soon as someone comes close to their supremacy.

These same people got spellcasters nerfed to their current shameful state, and they won't be happy until all the other playstyles are too.

Please mammal, I'm deluded and arrogant enough to ever feel threatened.

 

[Teh_Troll]

For all those saying inquisitive isn't a big deal, please share other FvS builds that are soloing R10 anything . To an unrelated thread, for all the casters who say caster DPS is down it's because obviously you aren't playing inquisitive.

For burst DPS nothing compares to NHB/EF and IA.

Good background music!

 

[Teh_Troll]

I am differently not the best player. I don’t run high reaper quest. I am luck if I can solo reaper 5 quests. I happen to have a inquisitor and a wolf shadar kai at level 27 both have terrible gear but I took them into giant hold quests on reaper 2 and kept track of completion times. The wolf on average complted every quest about 2 minutes faster then the inquisitor. Both felt equal in my opinion.
Also been running a inquisitor on cormyr and I have been running alot with a EK and have been pretty equal in the kill count.

Just my observations

Drink you milk, take your vitamins, let hulkamania run wild and get back to us when you're more experienced.

 

[Hireling]

Junk, how would you balance Inquisitor?
I have been running a RXB Artificer this life and its pretty darn good. I have only been doing R1-3 solo, but almost to cap and hoping to join some RXP parties as a Healer (the Reconstruct Ability Converter) and buffer.
I just did a Warforged Acid Sorc build and they seemed about equal on R 1-3 solo (I know/hear magic is weaker at higher skulls)
Anyway, how would you suggest bringing Inquis into line with other builds?