The Optional conundrum

[vryxnr]

People USED to do (some) optionals, and they didn't like it, so they nerfed optional exp.

To be fair, this was mostly due to some players power leveling by only doing the same optionals from the same quests over and over and over again, like leveling from 20 to cap in a single day by only doing WizKing optionals over and over again the entire time. The reasoning given was to prevent self inflicted burnout. When I did it, it was actually a fun social time where I met many new great people as the optimal way to do it was to have a party so you could split up and have at least one person per tower, allowing you to do the whole thing in under 5 minutes per run, and people would come and go as they pleased and we would chat and get to know each other as we ran it.

 

[AbyssalMage]

People USED to do (some) optionals, and they didn't like it, so they nerfed optional exp.

To be fair, this was mostly due to some players power leveling by only doing the same optionals from the same quests over and over and over again, like leveling from 20 to cap in a single day by only doing WizKing optionals over and over again the entire time. The reasoning given was to prevent self inflicted burnout. When I did it, it was actually a fun social time where I met many new great people as the optimal way to do it was to have a party so you could split up and have at least one person per tower, allowing you to do the whole thing in under 5 minutes per run, and people would come and go as they pleased and we would chat and get to know each other as we ran it.

Yeah, we have more burnout now (or at least it feels like it) than before. It is like making barriers to player enjoyment is detrimental to player retention. Heck, people who do slayers from 20 to 30 isn't for me but there are people who enjoy that play style.

 

[Terpilar]

Who are you and what did you do with Elminster? He just cannot be the author of such a brilliant idea!

Maybe he got his inspiration from me, who knows

 

[droid327]

I dont think you need to reinvent the wheel here, and I think the simplest solution is also both the most elegant and the most effective

Just tune up optional XP, so that its comparable XP/min to quest completion

Thats all that you need to do to incentivize optionals. The few optionals that are worth the XP/min are already ones that get run (eg Mirror). The devs have a sense of how long optionals take and how long quests take...we all do by now. Simply use real-game metrics based on how players actually play, and add more XP proportional to the expected time and added cost (ie for optionals that require some player skill, or a tough fight).

Adding a loot reward is also a proven option...if not a full named-loot end chest, then at least a special-loot chest that can drop things like filigrees, XP stones, etc.

If you do want to add something novel, maybe make a new class of special "optional chests" that can drop useful and in-demand items at a higher rate: non-named augments, cards/cleansers, XP stones, a guaranteed filigree, quest pack currency (eg fossils), rarely Reaper frags (if played on Reaper), Store items, a random piece of select Event gear, etc. No named items, nothing quest specific...just have all optional chests work the same way.

 

[Alternative]

You guys seem to be forgetting, that devs in this game operate with the mindset "if you don't like it, don't play it".

Stuff isn't here for us to be fun or rewarding.

 

[tsotate]

If the optionals don't give either named loot or rxp, they might as well not exist.

 

[Phoenicis]

If the optionals don't give either named loot or rxp, they might as well not exist.

I would add the caveat 'At cap'. While not 'worth it' prior, they do give XP.

 

[Savage]

I would like it if they added something like an "Optional Token" to each optional chest, and then have a trade in for like 50 or 100 tokens to get something useful like xp pots, discovery elixiers, named loot etc.

 

[droid327]

I would like it if they added something like an "Optional Token" to each optional chest, and then have a trade in for like 50 or 100 tokens to get something useful like xp pots, discovery elixiers, named loot etc.

They won't ever let you earn named loot without running the pack it belongs to, though

They're afraid the game will devolve back to everyone running the same ten optimal dailies for the universal loot tokens and not actually run new content

 

[l_remmie]

They won't ever let you earn named loot without running the pack it belongs to, though

They're afraid the game will devolve back to everyone running the same ten optimal dailies for the universal loot tokens and not actually run new content

Which people absolutely will.

Even many who don't like it will do so simply because it is the best method and they feel they need to do so in order to compete.

These things have been tested. Burnout is a real thing.
Making the most optimal way to play unfun will ruin a game.

 

[kmoustakas]

Yeah, we have more burnout now (or at least it feels like it) than before. It is like making barriers to player enjoyment is detrimental to player retention. Heck, people who do slayers from 20 to 30 isn't for me but there are people who enjoy that play style.

The way DDO works, it was always about repeating the same quests over and over again. Hopefully with a different build each time. Thus reincarnation. Reincarnation is amazing, it's the best thing DDO has to offer and in my oppinion DDO's true endgame.

But the way DDO evolved after Menace of the Underdark was "play this quest on heroic and epic" and now on legendary too. Worse is, they advertise those as different quests to pretend they are offering more than they actually are. Devs like to believe we get burned out from running the same quests over and over but that's not true for quests we like. We already farm the hell out of some quests for loot or experience and hell, even because we like some quests! I'm not burned out on irenstone inlet or sable manor but I am burned as hell out on gianthold and I try to avoid it even though I like those quests (except madstone, madstone sucks).

But running the same chains on heroic then epic and on legendary that's real burnout.
Who wants to put money on legendary reincarnation being shadowfail levels of disaster?

I believe they had it right the first time with epic being a difficulty level but that's another topic.

 

[Drunken.dx]

This has been a long standing problem with SSG's game design and policy.

IIRC explanation for not putting Ravenloft style teleporters in other expansions was that they "want us to experience content" so not giving us incentive to do optionals is contradictory to that claim.

Sometimes I feel like decision making at SSG is made by two people who put most effort in avoiding all communication with each other, but both have enough influence for their decisions to get implemented.

I see number of mechanics whose entire purpose is to slow down players and yet one part where players would LOVE to be slowed down is ignored.

 

[Geezer]

Personally, I dont run optionals unless they're close by and give enough xp to be worth it. If I have to go out of my way in the dungeon for measly xp, I dont bother. And yes, if there were an added somethng for the optional, like a chance of named in the chest, I usually run them.

 

[Br4d]

IIRC explanation for not putting Ravenloft style teleporters in other expansions was that they "want us to experience content" so not giving us incentive to do optionals is contradictory to that claim.

Sometimes I feel like decision making at SSG is made by two people who put most effort in avoiding all communication with each other, but both have enough influence for their decisions to get implemented.

I see number of mechanics whose entire purpose is to slow down players and yet one part where players would LOVE to be slowed down is ignored.

The flyover effect in MMO's is real and it is exaggerated in instanced games with no open world.

There are very few games these days (maybe just LotRO?) where you have the feeling of being in a vast zoneless open world.

If they turned everything into a port to where you want to go they would lose the players who want to explore as a priority.

 

[Titus Ovid]

[snip]

If they turned everything into a port to where you want to go they would lose the players who want to explore as a priority.

I don't think so. Because people that like to explore and run wilderness will do it nevertheless.
But if you take out the necessity to run wilderness is it worth to design a wilderness?
I hope yes because I am one of those explorers. It is the perfect occupation when you are a bit mush in the brain after a long workday or a hungover morning and waiting for a strong coffee to brew; or simply a Sunday morning walk.

Cheers,
Titus

 

[Phaedra]

Dear Devs,
in the past and recently in a pair of threads the subject of worthwhile Optionals were discussed in depth and length.
While Optionals are always welcome story- and lorewise, they are rarely worth the extra effort once you experienced the story. You yourself put time and energy into it in creating it. Wouldn't it be much more rewarding for you and the players, if it was run regularly?!
I don't say, it should be a must, beause it is an Optional after all. But something can be optional for completion and still be rewarding.
Rewards work in 2 ways in this game - loot and xp. To rework Optionals would be an investment at this point and no waste of time, because you could squeeze some more use in older content.

I actually propose another reward. How about you get a little shorttime buff like +1 loot for 10 min or +5% xp for 10 min. It doesn't need to be tied to a timeframe, it could influence the next chest or the next completion. Restrict it to the bravery mechanic and I doubt it will get abused. Even if there is a quest or a handful you could disable the mechanic in those quests after some feedback.

I hope some players will chime in, as well and may have even better ideas to make an Optional worthwhile and fun to experience more often than that first time.

Cheers,
Titus

The two things most players run quests for are Named Loot and XP (fun is a distant 3rd, players will optimize the fun out of the game if you let them/us) Put one or both of those in any optional you want players to run. If it's named loot, it should be the same stuff as in the end chest, or perhaps just the most desirable item, but at a lower drop rate to make up for being the only named item in the loot table. If it's XP, it should be a fraction of the total quest XP equal to the additional time it adds to the quest (You'll have to estimate this. Maybe put it on Lama to test this, and also run it in-house so that you can throw out extreme outlier times)

 

[Phaedra]

If they turned everything into a port to where you want to go they would lose the players who want to explore as a priority.

I guess you don't want to see Sigil as level 40 expansion. The City of Doors is made for instanced content.

 

[droid327]

(fun is a distant 3rd, players will optimize the fun out of the game if you let them/us)

I think for most players, what's "fun" is becoming stronger, and being strong while fighting mobs. That's why XP and loot are the primary incentives... that's how you get stronger.

The most fun quests are those that give you the most progress. The most hated quests are those that take the most time for the same reward, have annoying barriers to completion, or even worse don't always succeed. It's not a hard formula to follow for design.

I don't think "fun" has to be defined necessarily outside the reward mechanic. That's confusing "fun" with "flavor"...and that's what leads to devs designing things with that "if you don't like it don't play it" attitude

 

[Eltronin]

Am I missing something? Optional, do it or don't. Giving out rewards to get people to do it defeats the purpose of optional.

 

[woq]

Am I missing something? Optional, do it or don't. Giving out rewards to get people to do it defeats the purpose of optional.

There are several layers of reward in this game. Favor is tied only to non-optionals. Some named items are tied to non-optionals, some to optionals.

You know, how you can have an easy adventure - but if you open a secret door, it's hard and gives you a reward - that hopefully, is in line with the challenge and time spent or nobody will ever re-visit it again? Optional, but REQUIRES a reward to be worth doing or it'll fade to novelty and irrelevance. Edit: Key point here is that even if it's worth doing, it is optional and you don't have to. You should want to though.

We want to enjoy optionals and this gives devs more room to play with quests and stories without making them obscenely long EVERY TIME you do them.

Fun optionals? I'd like challenging optional hard enouncters to take roughly as much time or even longer as the end quest and reward according to expected time spent.