saekee
long live ROGUE
unfortunately dual shooting is not a toggle so no easy switching back and forth
The Ultimate Inquisitive Past Life Getter
- Thread starter Stoner81
- Start date
saekee
long live ROGUE
well I have an Inquisitive in early epics so I just experimented with shutting off dual shooting but still using the whole tree otherwise. The attack speed was very fast so the fun was back. I am sure the DPS will not be as good but then I got better boosts out of some of the mechanic tree enhancements by not dual shooting. Using an Epic Storm which anyway has a great crit multiplier.
I think a mechanic would be stronger without dual shooting but Epic storm is such a great weapon whereas there is no comparable named epic great xbows (other than the junk ones from challenges and borderlands). Even if the basic attack of a heavy xbow is weaker in this setup than a great crossbow, I still have No Holds Barred which is working very fast without dual shooting.
The other advantage is no overkill shots and more active attacks so the twitch experience is better. I am sure with the math on a boss my dps is lower but then on bosses I am NHB; that might be faster without dual shooting.
I think a mechanic would be stronger without dual shooting but Epic storm is such a great weapon whereas there is no comparable named epic great xbows (other than the junk ones from challenges and borderlands). Even if the basic attack of a heavy xbow is weaker in this setup than a great crossbow, I still have No Holds Barred which is working very fast without dual shooting.
The other advantage is no overkill shots and more active attacks so the twitch experience is better. I am sure with the math on a boss my dps is lower but then on bosses I am NHB; that might be faster without dual shooting.
Stoner81
Well-known member
Glad you like it!
As for updates for this build... they are coming eventually. I am running the event at the moment and I work weird shifts so my play time is very limited. The biggest change is taking Shoot First now which will/should aid heroic levelling quite a bit. There may be some other tweaks by picking up some things like the AoE attacks from Battle Engineer which is still very very good for heroics but until I TR back down to level 1 and go up again I won't know how things are with Dual Shooting specifically.
I know repeaters are beyond painful for levels 1-5 or 6 until you get the AoE from Battle Engineer, then things get a lot better. I suspect it will be similar to what I have heard regarding Alchemist in that levels 1-6 or so suck and once getting Multi Vial you are off to the races.
We will see but for now please just be patient with me
I am still working on it.Stoner81.
Stoner81
Well-known member
The only named Great Crossbow I can think of that is close to epic levels is Divine Artillery which was always my go to for levelling through epics until get the epic version of the same weapon. Sentience has somewhat ruined that now since not have a sentient weapon at level 20 really does suck but it is what it is. There is the Shining Reliquary Great Crossbow from Vecna which is level 18 so that could be an upgrade perhaps (but still no sentience).
Looking at that list the Spectral Great Crossbow could be worth it for the Improved Vorpal but I don't know if it can take a sentient gem or not. If it doesn't then I think you are stuck with the 2 from Borderlands (which aren't great but beggars can't choosers with such slim pickings to say the least
).Mechanics don't have access to an imbue though(?) so losing out on Law on Your Side is a big drop in damage at first glance (I could well be wrong here so take this with a sack full of salt).
Stoner81.
saekee
long live ROGUE
I have a Spectral, will check if it takes sentience!The only named Great Crossbow I can think of that is close to epic levels is Divine Artillery which was always my go to for levelling through epics until get the epic version of the same weapon. Sentience has somewhat ruined that now since not have a sentient weapon at level 20 really does suck but it is what it is. There is the Shining Reliquary Great Crossbow from Vecna which is level 18 so that could be an upgrade perhaps (but still no sentience).
Looking at that list the Spectral Great Crossbow could be worth it for the Improved Vorpal but I don't know if it can take a sentient gem or not. If it doesn't then I think you are stuck with the 2 from Borderlands (which aren't great but beggars can't choosers with such slim pickings to say the least
Mechanics don't have access to an imbue though(?) so losing out on Law on Your Side is a big drop in damage at first glance (I could well be wrong here so take this with a sack full of salt).
Stoner81.
Mechanics can take venomed blades from assassin and +3 imbue dice there too.
Anyway I am single shooting Epic Storm and it seems to be doing fine for epic leveling; maybe at cap swap to dual, not sure. My split has rogue levels so getting the tier 1-3 boosts of +2 damage and 1d6 without the dual shooting.
Fisto Mk I
Well-known member
Don't forget 50% bonus to lvlup Heroic Durability HP from 2 melee Martial Feat autogranted to Ranger (TWF and Improved TWF).
saekee
long live ROGUE
I think he means, what do you get from the levels of 7, 8 & 9 = so Improved wild empathy and evasion. But yes, he missed the bonus feats you point out for hp!Don't forget 50% bonus to lvlup Heroic Durability HP from 2 melee Martial Feat autogranted to Ranger (TWF and Improved TWF).
I kind of meant both questions really.
1) Going 9 levels into Ranger (when builds often only do 2-6) seems like a big commitment in the class, and as far as I can tell the critical piece is Evasion, and Improved Wild Empathy is helpful.
2) Going Ranger at all seems like the critical pieces you're getting are 2 useful feats and Evasion. The useful pieces you're getting are some single target damage and some durability (but this is easily replaceable by using a variety of other classes).
Basically, I'm considering using parts of the build and running with it, and trying to figure out what the most important pieces are that Ranger provides.
But that seems to confirm what I expected, so thanks for the help!
1) Going 9 levels into Ranger (when builds often only do 2-6) seems like a big commitment in the class, and as far as I can tell the critical piece is Evasion, and Improved Wild Empathy is helpful.
2) Going Ranger at all seems like the critical pieces you're getting are 2 useful feats and Evasion. The useful pieces you're getting are some single target damage and some durability (but this is easily replaceable by using a variety of other classes).
Basically, I'm considering using parts of the build and running with it, and trying to figure out what the most important pieces are that Ranger provides.
But that seems to confirm what I expected, so thanks for the help!
saekee
long live ROGUE
Don’t forget the enhancements—Sniper shot alone is one of the best active ranged attacks and there are 3d6 sneak along the way
Fisto Mk I
Well-known member
It cannot be easily replaced as you erroneously think, sorry. For any replacement from other classes you must waste precious feat slots that gained for free from 9lvl Ranger class.
Stoner81
Well-known member
Arti and Ranger automatically grant a bunch, if not most of, the key ranged feats for free. It front loads all that power early on which greatly aids with levelling. In addition Evasion is huge! At least for me it is. I did a Dark Hunter life once by accident and had no Evasion and I hated it.
The old 6/6/8 build! Classic build there, glad you are enjoying it!
Stoner81.
Glad you like it!
As for updates for this build... they are coming eventually. I am running the event at the moment and I work weird shifts so my play time is very limited. The biggest change is taking Shoot First now which will/should aid heroic levelling quite a bit. There may be some other tweaks by picking up some things like the AoE attacks from Battle Engineer which is still very very good for heroics but until I TR back down to level 1 and go up again I won't know how things are with Dual Shooting specifically.
I know repeaters are beyond painful for levels 1-5 or 6 until you get the AoE from Battle Engineer, then things get a lot better. I suspect it will be similar to what I have heard regarding Alchemist in that levels 1-6 or so suck and once getting Multi Vial you are off to the races.
We will see but for now please just be patient with me
Stoner81.
I tested BE instead of DWS on my inquisitor recently, it was only 18-30 gameplay as the update hit mid TR, not sure how it affects heroics, BE AoE was a huge help for levelling, but the overall DPS felt slightly lower. I switched to DWS just after cap again and it felt better at that point for end game. So maybe BE for levelling? Definitely needs more than my not very scientific test.
saekee
long live ROGUE
as I mentioned elsewhere here, I recommend you use the INQ tree but skip the dual shooting tier 1. There may be better options here and there depending on class splits pre-level 12
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Yes, this is technically true. However, I'm not sure how good of a fit it really is for a Inquisitive. You only get a single shot, instead of multiple, and you lose animation time as well. I suspect it's still probably the best single button attack you can pick up outside of Inquisitive anyway. However, I think the real loss is the rest of the DWS tree - For a similar number of AP, you can snag the following from BE:
+5 hit
+6 damage
15% doubleshot
+1 int
+3 imbue dice
And a variety of crit bonuses as well. On top of that, you pick up a solid AoE - something *desperately* needed, especially early in heroics when you have no other AoE. You do lose some HP and PRR compared to DWS, though.
Evasion is huge, I agree. My point is not "this build is bad", my point was "if I wanted to tinker with this build, what are the most important things to keep?" Evasion and feats seem to me at least to be the most important things the build gets from 9 levels of Ranger, so if I'm looking to change the level splits, I need to assess the value of that. Mostly I'm looking at something like 4+ Artificer / 2+ Rogue, which gets significantly more damage, better self-healing, and keeps Evasion, at the expense of Empower Healing and a lot of hit points. The biggest benefit for me, honestly, is that I hate leveling without AoE, and as is the build didn't get any until level 12 with IPS. Now with the changes to Shoot Later it does unlock some AoE earlier at least.
Why do you recommend skipping dual shooting? It's just double damage now, especially with the removal of the Doubleshot penalty. Sure, there are a few abilities that only work if you're not dual shooting but I am skeptical they add up to the damage output of dual shooting.
saekee
long live ROGUE
you shoot faster without it; in lower levels stuff dies fast so slow shooting becomes overkill. The active attacks make up for lower DPS when needed!
Do you know what the shooting speed penalty is?
saekee
long live ROGUE
hi, yes you will find it here:
It reduced the attack speed bonus of rapid shot and rapid reload; the former by half and the latter by some unknown amount—and the timing between shots was slowed as well.
It is really noticeable when you drop dual shooting in early levels, less so later. Basically up to about mid-epics are great without dual shooting, but YMMV.