The Unofficial Hard Core Summer League 2024!

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TroggyTrog

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As t

As the new publicist for Extreme Mortal Voyage Permadeath guild from Argonessen, i think we will muster up some guildies that will participate in this event as this is almost a match to what we run in our regular permadeath guild.

Some questions are what about favor rewards and buffers, what about hirelings, and and spoilers, some of these we allow and others we dont?

As for challenges, may i suggest you approach it as run once and earn favor and loot, any reruns can not reward loot or ingredients, just favor.

W
To answer the questions you posed: I feel favor rewards should be allowed, as they are earned. Buffers, like the House J and House P spell buffs are an up-in-the-air thing right now (something I do want to nail down). I feel those buffs really do grant a strong advantage, and obviously they are almost a must-have even on the HC league every season (thus why you'll see multiple instances of House P when the league is going on). They really aren't much different to guild ship buffs (which are very strong as well). Right now, I'd lean on not allowing the House P and House J buffs as they are just too similar to the power gained by ship buffs and thus basically in the same category. In-game (for hire via platinum) Hirelings are alright, but if they die, they are dead, and can't be rezzed. However, gold-seal hirelings are a bit of an advantage, as they can be summoned anywhere in a quest. For now, I'm leaning NO for gold-seal hires and YES for regular hires. Let me know what you all do in Extreme Mortal Voyage if you don't mind. Thanks!
 

TroggyTrog

Well-known member
As t

As the new publicist for Extreme Mortal Voyage Permadeath guild from Argonessen, i think we will muster up some guildies that will participate in this event as this is almost a match to what we run in our regular permadeath guild.

Some questions are what about favor rewards and buffers, what about hirelings, and and spoilers, some of these we allow and others we dont?

As for challenges, may i suggest you approach it as run once and earn favor and loot, any reruns can not reward loot or ingredients, just favor.

W
Oh and as far as challenges go, I'm not sure yet. But I'm leaning to just now allowing challenges, as they are in an odd spot (they are kind of like arcadey quests rather than adventures). A lot players tend to skip challenges on HC. To me, personally, they just don't feel like quests in the campaign. But, I'll leave this one open and see what feedback we get from other players. Also, if any festivals run, like Crystal Cove, for example, I'd say it'd be best for the league not to run those. I'm really just wanting players to 1 and done each quest (there would be the oddball out there like Litany for Abbott flagging, if people are inclined to attempt that). I may not even be fully decided on my Elite only idea either. As, some players might decide to attempt a quest on Normal or Hard rather than Elite. If that's the case and we allow that, then I'd say again, stick to the 1 and done philosophy (if you complete a quest on Normal, then that's it, you get stuck with a green Normal completion in your compendium). Epic/Legendary versions that overwrite a quest completion in the compendium is something else I'd like to know how you handle. What do you do in that situation? (like a Lords of Dust done on Heroic Normal, but then later on completed on an Epic Elite)?
 

TroggyTrog

Well-known member
Okay, I'm going to enjoy some DDO tonight and get back to brainstorming/reading/researching/discussions regarding the Unofficial Hard Core Summer League tomorrow. (Just a really long work week, and I need to unwind and relax a bit). So, in the meantime, feel free to post any questions or ideas or comments and we'll check those out and get back to you soon! And thanks again to everyone for showing an interest in this fun community event!
 

Xeang

Well-known member
You are tempting me and i was racing to get the new past lives done....but this sounds super fun.

However I would plan to group at times but if I don't see a group i'd solo. I think most soloists would do the honorable thing and start a new toon if they died alone. What's the fun of cheating? There are no rewards or proofs anyway. I often solo my own HC rules and restart the toon if I die on Thelanis. In any event great idea and hopefully will show DDO to make a new HC in the 2nd half of 2024 by the interest generated.

Question on rules: What about farming items in wilderness areas -- like horse or gear? What are the rules on that? You still have to do every quest on level but if you die in wilderness farming -- well you still die -- so is it worth the risk? I think it is fair game if following all the other rules.

Regarding P and J buffs....well since you have to finish every quest at level you would not have enough P favor until you are level 6 anyway to get the P buffs. It seems reasonable at that time to have earned them -- plus you have to get through the 5 early levels without them. They won't be quite as big a buff at level 6 as other toons can cast 20 resists on you by the --- its a reasonable favor reward by that point and equally available to all since all toons have to do the level 6s before advancing. Equal favor buff basically.
 

ChaoticDrivel

Well-known member
Great idea!

I agree with most of the rules you posted.

However, I think letting people solo(if that's their thing) is fine. I've done Hardcore leagues where I only grouped. And others where it was interspersed with soloing. That's okay. And even soloists might be tempted to interact with the (hopefully) many people on there.

Like you, I too think that the House P buffs are kind of OP. And that ideally- they wouldn't exist, so as to prop up the classes that do get those same abilities, and encourage teamwork. But I am also okay with allowing them for the event- seeing as guild buffs won't be- and since they need to be earned.

Just to confirm regarding quest level - Are you suggesting that something like Proof is in the Poison (base quest level:4. Modified quest level on Elite/R1:6), should be done at level 4? That's pretty hardcore! I personally don't mind it, but maybe for the first iteration of this - it should be running=modified quest level. Hopefully starting out easier, and closer to the actual Hardcore League rules, will drive up participation.

What's the thinking about content people don't have access to? For example - Myth Drannor will be out soon. Is it included as part of the challenge?

I think it would be a good idea for people to indicate in their bio, that they are participating; both to help locate fellow permadeathers, but also so that the locals on Wayfinder can tell at a glance. Similarly - it would be nice to have the chosen heirloom labelled in the bio as well.

Keep spreading the word!
 
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Positive thinking

Well-known member
To answer the questions you posed: I feel favor rewards should be allowed, as they are earned. Buffers, like the House J and House P spell buffs are an up-in-the-air thing right now (something I do want to nail down). I feel those buffs really do grant a strong advantage, and obviously they are almost a must-have even on the HC league every season (thus why you'll see multiple instances of House P when the league is going on). They really aren't much different to guild ship buffs (which are very strong as well). Right now, I'd lean on not allowing the House P and House J buffs as they are just too similar to the power gained by ship buffs and thus basically in the same category. In-game (for hire via platinum) Hirelings are alright, but if they die, they are dead, and can't be rezzed. However, gold-seal hirelings are a bit of an advantage, as they can be summoned anywhere in a quest. For now, I'm leaning NO for gold-seal hires and YES for regular hires. Let me know what you all do in Extreme Mortal Voyage if you don't mind. Thanks!
Looks like we have some guildies interested in this idea of a quick HC competition, will you be forming a guild for all competitors to join and celebrate their progress in, guild level wont matter if no ship buffs are allowed. A guild would provide an environment where people could group with other people knowing we are all in the same competition much like the hardcore league.
 

Thwart

Well-known member
I play primarily solo too. That's how I do all my main HC toons and live toons more than 90% of the time. However, there's zero accountability that way unless someone is videoing/livestreaming their entire process, and we just don't have the time to check on a player doing that, whereas if someone is grouping they have up to 5 other players keeping them honest. Ultimately it probably won't matter as there's no real way to have a perfect ranking system with this event, no way to say who is the #1 player, or #15 player via a leaderboard in any category, even if someone were to screenshot their favor. But, again, like I said in my posts, nothing is set in stone at this point until I get feedback from as many people as possible before the event starts on July 1st. Still, if many of us are just avoiding the other players and not grouping/playing solo for this event, it kind of goes against the very principle of what it's all about, since it is a community event, that means grouping/playing with others. I'll be grouping for this myself even though that's not how I normally play. I guess we'll just have to see what everyone else thinks over the next few days as we flesh this out.
I hear you but why trust a group of 5 people who could all agree to cheat the system. Solo players are just as trustworthy as players who group. With that said, after I posted yesterday, I realized that I shouldn't really care and that if I want to do my own 30-day HC season I could use whatever rules I wanted. Someone just needed to stick up with the solo players who have too many interactions with people irl and just want to relax and play a fun game with no crazy people!!!! Soloers .... you rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Sheikra

Well-known member
Solo rule doesn't really make sense to me. If I just duo with my friend who also agrees to bend the rules, that's not more accountability really.

Would there be 1 mega guild? Seems like the best way to determine who is doing PD and who isn't. Also, would all the LFMs not allow natives to join? PD only? Haha
 

TroggyTrog

Well-known member
Solo rule doesn't really make sense to me. If I just duo with my friend who also agrees to bend the rules, that's not more accountability really.

Would there be 1 mega guild? Seems like the best way to determine who is doing PD and who isn't. Also, would all the LFMs not allow natives to join? PD only? Haha
We are not allowing solo for the spirit of what this entire event is based on, community. This is helping players that are from different servers play with each other on the same server, just like when HC servers are up. This allows streamers to play with viewers from their streams from various servers, allows old friends from HC league to reunite, and one of my main reasons in particular is to capture the feel of sitting at the table playing PnP D&D with friends in a group setting. I usually solo HC league on my main HC character. I won't be doing it in this event. I usually have an alt I run with others to help them with HC. That is a fun way to meet other people, play with streamers, and make new friends. That is the intention of this rule. Yes, we will have a guild member only event, just like a permadeath guild would do, as this event will be fashioned around many of the permadeath guild style rules along with rules we are all familiar with from HC league (you get 1 life to live).

Ultimately, the guild will help people group (since there will be no guild buffs allowed at all, from the event guild or from other guilds), and we will encourage people to build adventuring parties with a compliment to roleplay (fill roles the group will need like: trapper, healer, tank, crowd controller, damage dealer, etc.
 

TroggyTrog

Well-known member
I hear you but why trust a group of 5 people who could all agree to cheat the system. Solo players are just as trustworthy as players who group. With that said, after I posted yesterday, I realized that I shouldn't really care and that if I want to do my own 30-day HC season I could use whatever rules I wanted. Someone just needed to stick up with the solo players who have too many interactions with people irl and just want to relax and play a fun game with no crazy people!!!! Soloers .... you rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Because, we are writing up the rules, and you will agree to the rules as written upon your acceptance into the permadeath HC event guild. If you violate any of those rules, you will be kicked from the guild. It will help people stay accountable and honorable. Running solo prevents other players from seeing if you cheat. If you run in a group, that situation is greatly reduced. And ultimately, this isn't about who is best or who does more at the end of the 30 day event. This is about community, fun times, and scratching the itch of running with HC friends and others from all the servers that you normally don't get to play DDO with. We won't have a leaderboard at all. No prizes at this point. It'd just be too laborious to accomplish that feat with just me and a couple of others organizing this (I work full time 50-60 hours a week). This is a labor of love, not some kind of competition. It's a chance to get players all together that want to play a one-life-to-live style of dungeon crawling, where the stakes are high, but the comradery and fun times are even higher. It's a chance to have a bit of PnP D&D group style simulation in the video game that we love, while also simulating that HC league feel and experience we all enjoy when HC is live.

I like I've said before in many posts, I solo all the time. This event isn't for soloing, this is for community and spending time with friends. No one plays PnP D&D solo, other than those magic marker find-your-fate modules like Thunderdelve Mountain. That's why I AM allowing event players to do the few SOLO only quests. That's your chance to play solo. All other quests need to be in a group environment, simply because it is permadeath HC style, and you'll need those group members working together to complete a quest and stay alive. And again, ultimately this is a community event. Communties aren't one person.
 

TroggyTrog

Well-known member
Looks like we have some guildies interested in this idea of a quick HC competition, will you be forming a guild for all competitors to join and celebrate their progress in, guild level wont matter if no ship buffs are allowed. A guild would provide an environment where people could group with other people knowing we are all in the same competition much like the hardcore league.
Yes, we'll be having an event guild, with no guild amenities or buffs, just the ship for going from public zone to public zone and to signify who is participating in the event. As far as a competition goes, there will be no leaderboards or prizes or titles or cosmetic rewards. I have no way to tell if someone will cheat their way to 8,000+ favor or not, no way to tell if they are questing at level or 4 levels over (of course there are some ways, but who has time to gather that data and keep watch over all of this). This event is themed on fun around a permadeath HC style (basically a combination of what many permadeath guilds do and what HC league has done in the past). I wish I could do a leaderboard and have a server that was coded to keep the rules locked in place for all players so that we all had to play by them and not be able to easily cheat and violate those rules. But that's not possible. The only thing I came up with while considering how to enforce participation in a competitive nature, was to have a discord channel set up where everyone would share their screen captures of Character Sheet + Compendium + Reaper Enhancements/showing Reaper XP. The idea would be to have them share this screen capture each time before they level, so that we'd have a recording of their progress and see that they completed everything say at level 1 while still level 1, or at level 10 while still level 10, and that that progress would be recorded in chronological order. It's just too much record keeping and too much time consumed to keep track of. If there was a website that could pull this off, or if SSG would allow a 3rd party application to track that info for us, then we could utilize those tools to have a proper leaderboard and maybe even offer prizes. But, that just doesn't seem feasible at all.

Anyway, thanks for the post, and I hope you and your friends can enjoy the event along with us all!
 

Positive thinking

Well-known member
Solo rule doesn't really make sense to me. If I just duo with my friend who also agrees to bend the rules, that's not more accountability really.

Would there be 1 mega guild? Seems like the best way to determine who is doing PD and who isn't. Also, would all the LFMs not allow natives to join? PD only? Haha
Agree with this, the previous permadeath guild our guildies were in had a raid wipe and decided to rewrite the rules to keep their toons alive and prior to that had even had the leader of the guild decide another party wipe shouldnt count(these would be good examples of where a whole team of players could in effect do the same thing as any solo player, currently permadeath on a live server is fully based on an honour system). This is the great thing about hardcore It seperates the real ones from the fakers, thats why a true hardcore server would be very welcome.
 

TroggyTrog

Well-known member
Great idea!

I agree with most of the rules you posted.

However, I think letting people solo(if that's their thing) is fine. I've done Hardcore leagues where I only grouped. And others where it was interspersed with soloing. That's okay. And even soloists might be tempted to interact with the (hopefully) many people on there.

Like you, I too think that the House P buffs are kind of OP. And that ideally- they wouldn't exist, so as to prop up the classes that do get those same abilities, and encourage teamwork. But I am also okay with allowing them for the event- seeing as guild buffs won't be- and since they need to be earned.

Just to confirm regarding quest level - Are you suggesting that something like Proof is in the Poison (base quest level:4. Modified quest level on Elite/R1:6), should be done at level 4? That's pretty hardcore! I personally don't mind it, but maybe for the first iteration of this - it should be running=modified quest level. Hopefully starting out easier, and closer to the actual Hardcore League rules, will drive up participation.

What's the thinking about content people don't have access to? For example - Myth Drannor will be out soon. Is it included as part of the challenge?

I think it would be a good idea for people to indicate in their bio, that they are participating; both to help locate fellow permadeathers, but also so that the locals on Wayfinder can tell at a glance. Similarly - it would be nice to have the chosen heirloom labelled in the bio as well.

Keep spreading the word!
Oh yeah, regarding Proof is in the Poison on Elite at character level 4, yes that's what we're doing. You have to option to avoid the quest, not enter and skip it, it just means less favor for you in the long run (although we're considering a penalty for skipped quests, like -50 total favor points if you leave a quest in the adventure compendium skipped). Again, still writing up the rules and guidelines for this event. But that one would make the weight of the decision much, much heavier, especially at the end of the 30 days and people want to compare their progress for that competitive nature many people have. Also, could you run Proof is in the Poison on R1 or even higher? Sure. I just didn't want people to think that doing Reaper was essential, as I really have no way to set up a leaderboard or track details like that between players and groups. We might also allow players do quests at Normal and Hard difficulties, as some quests tend to be harder for some than others. However, running a quest once per life (campaign style) is going to be part of the rules. The only exception to that would be NPC-turn-in-advancement quests like in Catacombs or Delera's chain or flagging quests like Litany. Devil's Assault is always that super weird one, that scales dramatically with Normal (6) Hard (12) Elite (18) difficulties. That one I'd perhaps allow 1 completion only, but you decide when at level 6 for Normal, level 12 for Hard, or level 18 on Elite. Basically, think of questing in this event like you are sitting down playing PnP D&D as a group. Once you are done, say with a module in a D&D campaign, you move onto the next quest/adventure. The one-and-done kind of philosophy is what we're shooting for. One life to life, run each quest once with your adventuring party.

The BIO note is a great idea, and we'll encourage that, and again, player characters participating in the event will be members of the event guild. So that will be their designation. They will not be grouping with non-guildies, unless we get more than 1,000 guild members and have to open a 2nd+ guild. It'll be very easy to track who is participating and who is not, simply by looking at the guild roster and the name plates.

Myth Drannor is advertised to launch on July 31st. If it launches earlier, people can certainly attempt it if they are of the appropriate level. That's why we made this a July1st - July 30th event, to avoid conflicts with Myth Drannor's estimated launch date.

The Heirloom listed in the BIO makes perfect sense as well, and I'll add that to the rules. One of those, be sure to update your BIOs often, things.
 

Sheikra

Well-known member
We are not allowing solo for the spirit of what this entire event is based on, community. This is helping players that are from different servers play with each other on the same server, just like when HC servers are up. This allows streamers to play with viewers from their streams from various servers, allows old friends from HC league to reunite, and one of my main reasons in particular is to capture the feel of sitting at the table playing PnP D&D with friends in a group setting. I usually solo HC league on my main HC character. I won't be doing it in this event. I usually have an alt I run with others to help them with HC. That is a fun way to meet other people, play with streamers, and make new friends. That is the intention of this rule. Yes, we will have a guild member only event, just like a permadeath guild would do, as this event will be fashioned around many of the permadeath guild style rules along with rules we are all familiar with from HC league (you get 1 life to live).

Ultimately, the guild will help people group (since there will be no guild buffs allowed at all, from the event guild or from other guilds), and we will encourage people to build adventuring parties with a compliment to roleplay (fill roles the group will need like: trapper, healer, tank, crowd controller, damage dealer, etc.

Yeah, that's all well and good until I log on during hours that most people aren't on, I'm level 1 and everyone else is level 2+ so I have to sit there and wait for a level 1 to show up. Or maybe I'm level 20 something, and there are only a handful of people in the guild who made it that far -- I guess I have to wait for them to log on.. or more likely I'll just stop playing.
 
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Positive thinking

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Yes, we'll be having an event guild, with no guild amenities or buffs, just the ship for going from public zone to public zone and to signify who is participating in the event. As far as a competition goes, there will be no leaderboards or prizes or titles or cosmetic rewards. I have no way to tell if someone will cheat their way to 8,000+ favor or not, no way to tell if they are questing at level or 4 levels over (of course there are some ways, but who has time to gather that data and keep watch over all of this). This event is themed on fun around a permadeath HC style (basically a combination of what many permadeath guilds do and what HC league has done in the past). I wish I could do a leaderboard and have a server that was coded to keep the rules locked in place for all players so that we all had to play by them and not be able to easily cheat and violate those rules. But that's not possible. The only thing I came up with while considering how to enforce participation in a competitive nature, was to have a discord channel set up where everyone would share their screen captures of Character Sheet + Compendium + Reaper Enhancements/showing Reaper XP. The idea would be to have them share this screen capture each time before they level, so that we'd have a recording of their progress and see that they completed everything say at level 1 while still level 1, or at level 10 while still level 10, and that that progress would be recorded in chronological order. It's just too much record keeping and too much time consumed to keep track of. If there was a website that could pull this off, or if SSG would allow a 3rd party application to track that info for us, then we could utilize those tools to have a proper leaderboard and maybe even offer prizes. But, that just doesn't seem feasible at all.

Anyway, thanks for the post, and I hope you and your friends can enjoy the event along with us all!
As long as everyone is in the same guild its pretty easy to track what quests they are in at what level, permadeath guilds are built of the honor system but some policing can be done.

Our guild leaders has already reached out to a couple players in guild to organize a crew, but generally no one in guild uses discord it is discouraged and referenced as spyware, but i am sure we will have a slot or two open for anyone to join that has in game voice a requirement for our permadeath guild. Will enjoy you jumping in when we slam sone content, our guild truly focuses on group synergy and playing hard together as a unit.

I like to use hirelings, what are the rules on hirelings and someone else asked about encounter areas, i also like to play these especially gianthold.
 
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