The Weak Role of Nukers

Anurakh

Little Nixie
If you have solid but not spectacular DC mind fog + sleet storm to slow em down and -10 saves is good combo.
Only for will saves. And mobs have to save for mind fog for that. If your DC is too low, they'll laugh at that spell too, even if they have to do it multiple times.
 

EinarMal

Well-known member
Can you get >130 DC on a sorc for all saves (necro, evoc, ench, illusion, conj and optionally transmutation) or just for a few of them?
I am having trouble getting 130 on just a few much less on all.
I mostly play Wizard but you have to pick 3 to really specialize in, although you don't need 130+ on most of them. I was mostly referring to instant killing, so necro, and illusion. I also boost enchant is what I normally choose for the destiny boosts. Trap the soul, mass hold works fine at 120+ with one will save as does evoc with reflex.

The spread is going to be 10-12 across schools so I go something like ~120 - 132, it depends on how all out you want to go like using an IOD staff, fatesinger, primal, if you go all in on DC I am at something like 125 - 137, but I prefer a bit less and more DPS for soloing mid skull. I might change my mind when the new content drops, mob saves are probably through the roof.

Once the cap goes up my epic feats will look like below (this is not going all in on DC but a mix of DC/DPS). The only real advantage to Wizard at all today is that you can do DC and DPS on your heroic feats.

1-Quicken
1-(WB) Maximize
3-Arcane Initiate
5-(WB) Empower
6-Extend
9-Enlarge
10-(WB) SF Illusion
12-Insightful Reflexes
15-(WB) SF Necromancy
15-GSF Necromancy
18-GSF Illusion
20-(WB) Heighten
21-Epic SF Illusion
22-Epic Spellpower Cold
24-BoGW
25-Epic Spell Power Electric
27-Embolden
28-Epic Spell Power Acid
30-Scion of Shadowfell
30-Intensify
31-Spell Specialty Necromancy
33-Wellspring of Power
34-Spell Specialty Enchantment


Only for will saves. And mobs have to save for mind fog for that. If your DC is too low, they'll laugh at that spell too, even if they have to do it multiple times.

Sure just throwing out other options like mind fog, crushing despair etc... that don't require destiny choices. You can also use enervate, energy drain etc...

If you have terrible DC's Tilo's madcap debuff plan is the way to go. I personally don't like taking exalted angel or Shiradi. If I can't land any IK spells or mass hold in the new content, I may well have to specialize more and go Shiradi we will see I guess. For instance if I don't need debuffs, I like Magus + Draconic + Shadowdancer, the cool down reductions are really valuable on Wizard I have found. I also like T5 Magus the best right now. But again may have to switch up in the new content not sure yet.
 
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mikarddo

Well-known member
I mostly play Wizard but you have to pick 3 to really specialize in, although you don't need 130+ on most of them. I was mostly referring to instant killing, so necro, and illusion. I also boost enchant is what I normally choose for the destiny boosts. Trap the soul, mass hold works fine at 120+ with one will save as does evoc with reflex.

Thanks. Yeah, wizard gets somewhat better DC than sorcs still though CM/WM has added something to sorcs.
I am far from all out on DC on my and currently at 113-123 (without pots or buffs).
 

Anurakh

Little Nixie
Sure just throwing out other options like mind fog, crushing despair etc... that don't require destiny choices. You can also use enervate, energy drain etc...

If you have terrible DC's Tilo's madcap debuff plan is the way to go. I personally don't like taking exalted angel or Shiradi. If I can't land any IK spells or mass hold in the new content, I may well have to specialize more and go Shiradi we will see I guess. For instance if I don't need debuffs, I like Magus + Draconic + Shadowdancer, the cool down reductions are really valuable on Wizard I have found. I also like T5 Magus the best right now. But again may have to switch up in the new content not sure yet.
I know, but I wanted to make it clear for those who don't know the arcane casters well and might think what it isn't. Also, the reality is that currently combat on high difficulties is usually very fast, and against packs of mobs, so there is little time for debuff spells, individual debuffs don't help as much as you need against mode packs, and group debuffs usually have a save. You know this, but not all the people reading you know it.

Having a low DC is an ordeal for a spellcaster. Don't let the newbies be fooled. As for the Tilomere builds, I'll just say that not everything that glitters is gold. If I were a newbie, I'd be careful when following his advice.

I don't like Shiradi either. I played Shiradi until they nerfed them, and I noticed a substantial increase in DPS when I switched. I wouldn't go back to Shiradi even if they un-nerfed it, which they're not going to do. Exalted Angel has its place for some divine builds - it might be better than nothing for a Fire Warlock, but honestly, Warlocks are a mess in the endgame right now. They're just too neglected in design.
 
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EinarMal

Well-known member
Thanks. Yeah, wizard gets somewhat better DC than sorcs still though CM/WM has added something to sorcs.
I am far from all out on DC on my and currently at 113-123 (without pots or buffs).

It's a journey it probably took me 2 years to get all the current pieces I have, Int has the best filigree setup for DC as well. I am counting in Yugo and rem pots, as I keep those up 24/7 at cap. Not counting any boosts like Reaper +3, I don't take Arcane Insight, I frankly forget to click enough to make it worthwhile for me and the up time is bad.
 

eartheyes

outerspacetruth


We see a melee r10 solo and a nuker r10 solo of the same quest where the COLD druid nuker has a substantial advantage because it's a FIRE monsters only quest basically.
And the Razorclaw Shifter which is supposed to be mainly single target dps clears the FIRE dungeon faster than a COLD druid. Do I need say more.
the druid spent 25 seconds stationary buffing...that accounts for all but 3 seconds of the difference. also consider that the druid had more champs to fight and they had different reapers to deal with...plus unless they know they are racing it is hard to really compare them, no?
 

Asterphen

Well-known member
Nukers are still excellent for R1 levelling so you will see many on the TR train - not so much at end game.
I feel this comment speaks loudly to me. I have seen little disagreement with this take, either here on the forums or played out in the game. I have been in many a group where the DPS nuker dominated kill count. I have not seen a raid spot be wasted on a nuker. All of my information is anecdotal, but I feel that this discussion is mainly anecdotal anyway. No one seems to be objecting to the facts that nukers are excellent at leveling and anything up to R7, but at R7 they were nerfed. The disagreement begins as to the justification and reaction. I am curious as to the goal. Do the "un-nerf nuker" crowd want casters to dominate at leveling, R1-7, and then also R10? I still seem many nukers in groups I join so I do not feel the classes are dying. What is the goal? Do we want everyone to play nukers all the time? I understand that many people feel the nerf is too much, but I am looking for clarification. Through the 10 pages of discussion (and other threads) it seems that proof is difficult, but I am curious as to what the end goal for the discussion is. We seem to agree that nukers are not weak all the times, just some times, but we want nukers to be weak none of the times? If the the nukers are un-nerfed and riad parties are mostly nukers, will that be the goal?

I get that you want nukers to be more powerful at R10, but I am not sure I see why. I don't see tons of threads for tanks trying to make the case that they should be better at soloing content while leveling. I feel like the tank has accepted the limitations, even if they are not happy about it, so why do nukers need to be good at everything. It would be cool if they were, but why?
 
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Raedier

Well-known member
I feel this comment speaks loudly to me. I have seen little disagreement with this take, either here on the forums or played out in the game. I have been in many a group where the DPS nuker dominated kill count. I have not seen a raid spot be wasted on a nuker. All of my information is anecdotal, but I feel that this discussion is mainly anecdotal anyway. No one seems to be objecting to the facts that nukers are excellent at leveling and anything up to R7, but at R7 they were nerfed. The disagreement begins as to the justification and reaction. I am curious as to the goal. Do the "un-nerf nuker" crowd want casters to dominate at leveling, R1-7, and then also R10? I still seem many nukers in groups I join so I do not feel the classes are dying. What is the goal? Do we want everyone to play nukers all the time? I understand that many people feel the nerf is too much, but I am looking for clarification. Through the 10 pages of discussion (and other threads) it seems that proof is difficult, but I am curious as to what the end goal for the discussion is. We seem to agree that nukers are not weak all the times, just some times, but we want nukers to be weak none of the times? If the the nukers are un-nerfed and riad parties are mostly nukers, will that be the goal?

I get that you want nukers to be more powerful at R10, but I am not sure I see why. I don't see tons of threads for tanks trying to make the case that they should be better at soloing content while leveling. I feel like the tank has accepted the limitations, even if they are not happy about it, so why do nukers need to be good at everything. It would be cool if they were, but why?


Currently the limitations on nukers are severe. It is either play cold caster with t5 magus or DC caster or go home.
Pretty much any other type of nuker builds are so gimped DPS wise compared to melee or ranged that yes, the spot is actually wasted, unless you count mass hold as useful, but melee/ranged have more then enough ways to CC nowadays so even CC is not the casters niche anymore.

And if the r7-10 nerfs were reverted nukers would probably still be bad in raids but not that I would mind, at least they would be decent in R10 quests, definitely not as strong as SDK, but yes, quite good.

The thing is, any class/race combo can dominate R1 leveling with the right setup and gear, I don’t think leveling should be taken in account for balance purposes. Leveling is so easy who cares if scorch/chain lightning oneshots packs? Cleave does the same, for no cost.
So the logic here is as follows: nukers are good at leveling, wich every class can be, now nuker DPS must be overnerfed by a whopping 33% in R10 to compensate for that. I mean, really?
 
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SpartanKiller13

Why do I have 411 .ddocp files
I feel this comment speaks loudly to me. I have seen little disagreement with this take, either here on the forums or played out in the game. I have been in many a group where the DPS nuker dominated kill count. I have not seen a raid spot be wasted on a nuker.
I'll comment because my guild runs a fair bunch of raids (27/week scheduled), usually around LH/R1 - we do teaching raids and are an open-invite guild so we don't have a public push group (our push group meets seasonally). Nuker casters work fine there still, and some of our better players are on one currently for various reasons. We had 5-6 nukers on Tuesday night raids and it wasn't a problem. We're not a R10 raid guild, but there's a lot of volume lol.

SP management, the abundant SP restoration items, spell efficiency, Bard songs - these all help with SP issues; and Primal mantle w/Evergreen is an option if you need more. Also lots of raids are relatively short in terms of when you're unloading, and some even have shrines.

Lots of people saying "nuker is a wasted spot" are being pretty picky for the size of the game IMO. Good players with good gear on good builds > bad players on the ideal build with excellent gear lol. YMMV, but I'm not going to turn someone away for being on a nuker, and 1/12th of your raid shouldn't be swinging what difficulty you're running on (exception being a tank).

We rarely have instakillers, I'd say that role is far more dead than nukers for raiding (one is good for many raids, two is like 1.2x as good as the first one). Mostly it's just nukers who also have a little DC casting on the side covering that niche.

Currently the limitations on nukers are severe. It is either play cold caster with t5 magus or DC caster or go home.
Pretty much any other type of nuker builds are so gimped DPS wise compared to melee or ranged that yes, the spot is actually wasted, unless you count mass hold as useful, but melee/ranged have more then enough ways to CC nowadays so even CC is not the casters niche anymore.

If you're saying that casters can't out-DPS melees (in quests or raids) you're definitely playing with a limited selection of DDO's population. Which is fine, but be aware of that when you make generalizations about said population. There's a lot of bad & mediocre players out there, and it's not too hard to out-DPS those regardless of the build they're on.

Also utility can be pretty nice, like being able to bring less (if any) dedicated healers, having DoT's, and even just having access to more debuffs is helpful at least in my experience. Long-term AoE CC is also firmly in the hands of casters, like disco/earthquake - which may or may not matter to you.

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Personally I think R7+ questing has gotten too easy, with a decent group it's pretty cruisable; I feel like I should be stressed more. I still see nukers up there, particularly Ice Druid and Sorc; but it's definitely melee-favored currently for invested toons (casters are easier for low-PL toons IMO). I'd vote more for nerfing all damage in high skulls vs un-nerfing nukers, but YMMV. I'm also in the boat that I think reaper points should give 1 & 2 HP instead of 4 & 8 HP, so maybe my opinions aren't what you're after XD
 

Spook

Ghostly Troll
If you're saying that casters can't out-DPS melees (in quests or raids) you're definitely playing with a limited selection of DDO's population
We are assuming that the melees are on dps builds and not Falchion Barbs. The dps ceiling for casters is about half that of an equivalently geared melee dps and it gets worse when compared to the top meta builds. If you do nothing except R10 quests and R1 raids this isnt an issue as the dps requirements are low - but even at R3 hunted you will have an easier time with a physical dps heavy group.
 

Anurakh

Little Nixie
I get that you want nukers to be more powerful at R10, but I am not sure I see why. I don't see tons of threads for tanks trying to make the case that they should be better at soloing content while leveling. I feel like the tank has accepted the limitations, even if they are not happy about it, so why do nukers need to be good at everything. It would be cool if they were, but why?
Tank is a super specialized job. Magical spell damage covers a very wide range of classes. Why were melee types crying day and night when their defenses were low? Why didn't they accept their sad fate? Because it's the same situation.

On the other hand, tanks are in a good place now. They work well. Magical damage doesn't work well.

Your arguments don't hold up.
 
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SpartanKiller13

Why do I have 411 .ddocp files
We are assuming that the melees are on dps builds and not Falchion Barbs. The dps ceiling for casters is about half that of an equivalently geared melee dps and it gets worse when compared to the top meta builds. If you do nothing except R10 quests and R1 raids this isnt an issue as the dps requirements are low - but even at R3 hunted you will have an easier time with a physical dps heavy group.
And we're assuming you're on a nuker build not a gimp.

Our R3 Hunt runs did plenty fine with multiple nukers. YMMV.

Not everyone in DDO plays the same builds every time, but it's ok if you have to copy paste someone else :)
 

Spook

Ghostly Troll
And we're assuming you're on a nuker build not a gimp.

Our R3 Hunt runs did plenty fine with multiple nukers. YMMV.

Not everyone in DDO plays the same builds every time, but it's ok if you have to copy paste someone else :)
Fair play. I would be embarrassed if a nuker was out dpsing me but you are owning it. Well done.
 
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