Ped Xing
Well-known member
He's yanking my chain - timestop is fine
The Weak Role of Nukers
- Thread starter Unuys
- Start date
Spook
Ghostly Troll
No. Nuker dps is just sad - low level raids they get away with it as there isnt many strict dps requirements in ddo.
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Yeah, that's what I meant with LH and r1 raids because 99% of raids ran are on these difficulties and having nuker dps there isn't a problem most of the times (I haven't seen raids fail in a long time, even with r1 raid pugs).
Ped Xing
Well-known member
I'll agree with you on your comment about raids. DPS nukers are a waste of a slot in any raid that's remotely hard.
In another thread you commented about warlocks/wizards/clerics/souls being disproportionately affect by the R7+ nerfs and ED strike "adjustments" - i don't have experience there. I think i could make a wizard and warlock work in R10s (guildy does well on his lock) but, i can't say with certainty.
Here's the thing though, R10 questing - i exclude instakill casters from my LFMs because i think they're the most broken builds in the game - but, when i look at kill counts, i'm usually pretty balanced with the melee. And i CC and heal on top of killing stuff. This is where so much of my hesitancy about buffing nukers comes from. I don't trust SSG to do even remotely in a balanced way
Spook
Ghostly Troll
Hey no will let 1 of you in for Timestop - preferably a warlock though for Taint
Ped Xing
Well-known member
I feel so used
Why do ppl compare r10s with the state various builds are in?
r10 is intended to be a challenge. A challenge should not be for every playstyle to be able to solo. DPS casters without CC/IK never had much place in r10s. Casters with CC/IK and supplementary DPS do although. You cannot go into the hardest difficulty and just plan to AoE one shot everything. That is bad strategy for r10s and especially solo. Sorcs at one time were meta, which honestly I feel like they should never have been in the place they were in. Wizards can still get high DCs, but lack DPS, but still are a great party addition, along with bard. Druids and Alchys just do CC/Dmg well in that combo.
Melees/Ranged are in the same place. Melees must be concerned about defenses, self healing, CC, etc. Range CC/AoE.
In the end, you should build properly for such accomplishments. It is not for everyone.
r10 is intended to be a challenge. A challenge should not be for every playstyle to be able to solo. DPS casters without CC/IK never had much place in r10s. Casters with CC/IK and supplementary DPS do although. You cannot go into the hardest difficulty and just plan to AoE one shot everything. That is bad strategy for r10s and especially solo. Sorcs at one time were meta, which honestly I feel like they should never have been in the place they were in. Wizards can still get high DCs, but lack DPS, but still are a great party addition, along with bard. Druids and Alchys just do CC/Dmg well in that combo.
Melees/Ranged are in the same place. Melees must be concerned about defenses, self healing, CC, etc. Range CC/AoE.
In the end, you should build properly for such accomplishments. It is not for everyone.
Vox
Well-known member
Druid wasted a lot of time at the start, should've buffed en route, but regarless it just shows the weighting the devs have on those two styles.
voenixa121
Well-known member
Any build that can solo r10 cant be "weak". I dont really understand why r10 solo speedruns are used as a measurement for balance at all.
erethizon1
Well-known member
They really aren't fine though. The difference between legendary raids that fail on R1 and those that succeed are the number of magic users. Melee make raids successful and casters essentially pike since they are so much weaker. Even LH raids can fail when they have too many casters.
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Sarlona Raiding
Well-known member
I don't have any skin in the game on the caster vs. martial arguments that are endless as I just play whatever build works.
My only observation is that the R7-R10 nerf was extremely crude and results in all casters doing less than 68% of the damage on R10 that they did before the nerf. I am not sure how any reasonable person can argue that wizard, warlock, caster fvs, caster cleric needed a nerf as they were already below-median builds before the nerf. This is on top of the epic strike nerf which hits those same builds hard as they were a major part of the rotation.
From a raid perspective I would always prefer to have exactly 1 caster with good cc in the group and no more, although 2 in too hot too handle is good but really you just want sorcs there or maybe 1 sorc and 1 ice druid. Melee have much better sustatined damage over time and dps is over-weighted in raids compared to quests.
From a solo perspective, casters are very good and have always had a niche as being the best soloer's. At the moment comparing my best soloing caster to my best soloing melee I would prefer my melee for 75% of the content and my caster for 25%, but some of those quests where a caster is better are extremely painful for a melee as you push skulls, e.g., Tavern Brawl which can be cheesed on a caster, Slavers II and of course nobody wants to do melee damage to the boss in Tempest Spine on R10 unless they are cheesing in a safe spot.
Much of the reason I prefer to solo on my melee for so many quests is the survivability and aoe improvements over time have been significant difference makers. My melee has better hp, AC, PRR and can stand in deliver in places my caster has to kite. Caster AOE Is still better, but my melee aoe is more than good enough. In most quests my melee clears the dungeon faster, but by a small margin. In some quests a caster is just way better at soloing it, although there might be some tricks and tips I am missing that would make my melee experience better on those quests.
Going forward I will have one solid caster for soloing and my other solid characters will be martial. In most casual raids caster contribution is pass/fail vs. scaling meaning that if you spec a first life caster for LH raiding they will perform the job effectively and you won't notice much difference between a complete character and a first-lifer. So I'll make a few first-life casters for raiding when the role is needed - which it is needed more frequently lately as fewer people are bringing casters to even casual raids.
My only observation is that the R7-R10 nerf was extremely crude and results in all casters doing less than 68% of the damage on R10 that they did before the nerf. I am not sure how any reasonable person can argue that wizard, warlock, caster fvs, caster cleric needed a nerf as they were already below-median builds before the nerf. This is on top of the epic strike nerf which hits those same builds hard as they were a major part of the rotation.
From a raid perspective I would always prefer to have exactly 1 caster with good cc in the group and no more, although 2 in too hot too handle is good but really you just want sorcs there or maybe 1 sorc and 1 ice druid. Melee have much better sustatined damage over time and dps is over-weighted in raids compared to quests.
From a solo perspective, casters are very good and have always had a niche as being the best soloer's. At the moment comparing my best soloing caster to my best soloing melee I would prefer my melee for 75% of the content and my caster for 25%, but some of those quests where a caster is better are extremely painful for a melee as you push skulls, e.g., Tavern Brawl which can be cheesed on a caster, Slavers II and of course nobody wants to do melee damage to the boss in Tempest Spine on R10 unless they are cheesing in a safe spot.
Much of the reason I prefer to solo on my melee for so many quests is the survivability and aoe improvements over time have been significant difference makers. My melee has better hp, AC, PRR and can stand in deliver in places my caster has to kite. Caster AOE Is still better, but my melee aoe is more than good enough. In most quests my melee clears the dungeon faster, but by a small margin. In some quests a caster is just way better at soloing it, although there might be some tricks and tips I am missing that would make my melee experience better on those quests.
Going forward I will have one solid caster for soloing and my other solid characters will be martial. In most casual raids caster contribution is pass/fail vs. scaling meaning that if you spec a first life caster for LH raiding they will perform the job effectively and you won't notice much difference between a complete character and a first-lifer. So I'll make a few first-life casters for raiding when the role is needed - which it is needed more frequently lately as fewer people are bringing casters to even casual raids.
Jack Jarvis Esquire
Well-known member
I agree. H/E/low R raids are probably the best representation for any widespread balance issues, as a large proportion of the player base runs them, albeit to varying degrees of frequency.
Jack Jarvis Esquire
Well-known member
What's too many though?
I run a slew of that sort content at endgame a couple of times a week in PUGs and I've not seen a raid fail in literally months. There are certainly no restrictions on the numbers of casters in those groups and I'm not conscious of any particular weight away or towards casters in them.
Some raids do benefit greatly from a tank to run much more smoothly though, is fair comment.
I'd say success depends more on the raid leader and a few others knowing what to do and what not to do rather than any specific builds - certainly not to any extent where quotas are needed.
I dont Like gimps
Well-known member
I just wanna mention that its kinda hard to compare those 2 because while I know Nothing about the druid
I know that the Razorclaw in that video Litteraly ransacked TOEE endfight r10 on repeat for M3 or reaper rings and so he did with Other stuff of his gear that man earned his dmg
I know that the Razorclaw in that video Litteraly ransacked TOEE endfight r10 on repeat for M3 or reaper rings and so he did with Other stuff of his gear that man earned his dmg
I don't intent on talking bad about him, I never soloed r10s as melee so while it looks easy watching him do it I must also admit that he improved a lot in those two weeks since his Grim solo. Ransacking ToEE end fight and improving so much so quickly shows how much dedication he has and of course the results are earned. I just wish nukers didn't get treated so harshly by devs I don't think we deserved thatI just wanna mention that its kinda hard to compare those 2 because while I know Nothing about the druid
I know that the Razorclaw in that video Litteraly ransacked TOEE endfight r10 on repeat for M3 or reaper rings and so he did with Other stuff of his gear that man earned his dmg
Jack Jarvis Esquire
Well-known member
Most folks haven't solo'd R10s on anything.
Which is why - whilst a great achievement for those who have/do - it's no basis for balancing much of anything.
Which is why - whilst a great achievement for those who have/do - it's no basis for balancing much of anything.
Anurakh
Little Nixie
This. Everyone who raid knows that if you have a lot of casters, even LH will be difficult, if not a failure.
The part that makes very little sense to me on the spell high reaper nerf is it is not constant. So let's say you believe that casters need some extra penalty, and they should do 10% less damage on spells. I do not really agree with this, but let's say that's what you think. How do you explain as skulls go up the relative penalty on spells gets bigger? There is nothing that makes the DPS of spells go up with more skulls.
The other thing I will say, even if you believe the above WAS correct at the time it was done, with the epic strike MCL nerf and Dragon breath dice nerf, it should still be adjusted post nerf. As Dragon breath was a good chunk of the AOE DPS rotation especially on classes like Druid/Sorc that could push MCL.
| 1 | 76.90% | |
| 2 | 66.70% | |
| 3 | 55.60% | |
| 4 | 45.50% | |
| 5 | 37.00% | |
| 6 | 30.30% | |
| 7 | 25.0% - Spells 23.0% | 0.92 |
| 8 | 20.8% - Spells 18.8% | 0.903846154 |
| 9 | 17.9% - Spells 14.9% | 0.832402235 |
| 10 | 15.6% - Spells 10.6% | 0.679487179 |
The other thing I will say, even if you believe the above WAS correct at the time it was done, with the epic strike MCL nerf and Dragon breath dice nerf, it should still be adjusted post nerf. As Dragon breath was a good chunk of the AOE DPS rotation especially on classes like Druid/Sorc that could push MCL.