The Weak Role of Nukers

Ped Xing

Ped Xing

Well-known member
Jack Jarvis Esquire said:
I run a slew of that sort content at endgame a couple of times a week in PUGs and I've not seen a raid fail in literally months. There are certainly no restrictions on the numbers of casters in those groups and I'm not conscious of any particular weight away or towards casters in them.
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It's not uncommon for players who speed run r10s solo to also solo LH/R1 raids - it they can solo it, the other 11 people really don't matter.
 
Ped Xing

Ped Xing

Well-known member
EinarMal said:
The part that makes very little sense to me on the spell high reaper nerf is it is not constant....
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I've said this is in other threads - the table is backwards. They should decrease DPS caster power in easier content. That's where it's a problem. R10s? No need to decrease their DPS
 
I

I dont Like gimps

Well-known member
Unuys said:
I don't intent on talking bad about him, I never soloed r10s as melee so while it looks easy watching him do it I must also admit that he improved a lot in those two weeks since his Grim solo. Ransacking ToEE end fight and improving so much so quickly shows how much dedication he has and of course the results are earned. I just wish nukers didn't get treated so harshly by devs I don't think we deserved that
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1.choosing that particular quest is a horrible example my thrower times are faster than the RC in that quest (lol)
2. Nukers are Much more forgiving and unlike the RC they shouldnt drop below 50% hp in the first place

Im not even arguing that the r10 nerfs are somewhat obsolete by Now But i also think that casters are much more secure than melees and Unlike ranged have very reliable CC too

Now at the end of the day Im terrible on both Melee and caster :D and Enjoy ranged to solo r10s :p sometimes faster sometimes slower than melees or Nukers
 
Bjond

Bjond

Well-known member
Sarlona Raiding said:
the R7-R10 nerf was extremely crude
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Heh. I'd have called it "ham-handed". Reminded me of the old cartoons where baby (aka forums) are whining incessantly and our brave protagonist shoves a pacifier in it's mouth with enough force to bug-eye a bull.
Sarlona Raiding said:
From a raid perspective I would always prefer to have exactly 1 caster with good cc in the group and no more
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Most MMOs learned from EQs balancing mistakes. DDO just replicated them. People need to be able to contribute. The entire "just play a different class" argument does work better in DDO than it did in EQ, but only to the disinterested. What a player that loves that particular style hears from the devs is "I don't care. Suck it up or quit."

I have one of each type of major role for DDO just so I can swap around to fit gaps in our raids. Can't say I have a favorite. I'd get bored stuck on the same style forever. But, I really feel for those who picked a style because they love it only to find out it doesn't "scale well" in in their preferred content -- raids, questing, tavern brawls, whatever.

BTW, balance isn't about who finished solo'ing quicker. It's about ensuring everyone can have fun. The true balance issues for DDO are far more about the non-scaling roles than about minuscule differences in R10 solo times.
 
E

erethizon1

Well-known member
Jack Jarvis Esquire said:
What's too many though?

I run a slew of that sort content at endgame a couple of times a week in PUGs and I've not seen a raid fail in literally months. There are certainly no restrictions on the numbers of casters in those groups and I'm not conscious of any particular weight away or towards casters in them.

Some raids do benefit greatly from a tank to run much more smoothly though, is fair comment.

I'd say success depends more on the raid leader and a few others knowing what to do and what not to do rather than any specific builds - certainly not to any extent where quotas are needed.
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I don't raid that much. I raid exclusively through PUG's and I have been in LH raids that have failed lately. I play a Warlock with over 100 past lives (in other words, a total deadbeat that essentially pikes raids because I have no way of designing my robe wearing, magic using Warlock to be a worthwhile contribution in any raid that requires serious DPS). Before The R7+ nerf I contributed in R10 content through ruin, greater ruin, and dragon breath epic strike. All of those have been nerfed so badly that I am normally going to be one of the worst contributors in any R10 quest and legendary raid. My last 30+ lives have been a pure DPS warlock. It performs great for most of the game. But once you get to the end where DPS really matters, there is no way to make a magic using Warlock a serious DPS contributor (maybe a melee one would perform differently but I have never played one of those).

I'm cool with being a weak class. I don't need to be the best. But I could do without nerf after nerf of what little contribution I am able to make because completely different classes are overperforming at end game. No one ever accused me of being OP at end game. I don't need any end game nerfs of any kind to my build.
 
R

Raedier

Well-known member
This is like the 20th thread since the plethora of caster nerfs that’s gotten the style of play out of fashion very fast.
That should be enough evidence to support a revamp or tweak between caster and martial builds cuz let’s be honest, any caster that is as decently built as a melee toon will get their britches blown out from under them by the sheer difference in power (especially in R10)
Martial builds are obliterating everything they come across making R10s look way too easy (and they are) while casters get left in the dust.
This is not bias.
Casters are now a support class, not a DPS class.
Sure, if you are a top completionist fully built end game nuker playing in a group with 5 newbie/mid players you still have enough firepower to make it through the quest in most cases (because of AOE CC + helpless dmg) but your boss DPS is absolute trash.
The same player playing his best build on a martial toon will outperform his own best build on a caster toon by a severely great margin.
 
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Jack Jarvis Esquire

Jack Jarvis Esquire

Well-known member
Raedier said:
This is like the 20th thread since the plethora of caster nerfs that’s gotten the style of play out of fashion very fast.
That should be enough evidence to support a revamp or tweak between caster and martial builds cuz let’s be honest, any caster that is as decently built as a melee toon will get their britches blown out from under them by the sheer difference in power (especially in R10)
Martial builds are obliterating everything they come across making R10s look way too easy (and they are) while casters get left in the dust.
This is not bias.
Casters are now a support class, not a DPS class.
Sure, if you are a top completionist fully built end game nuker playing in a group with 5 newbie/mid players you still have enough firepower to make it through the quest in most cases (because of AOE CC + helpless dmg) but your boss DPS is absolute trash.
The same player playing his best build on a martial toon will outperform his own best build on a caster toon by a severely great margin.
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The plethora of threads is no evidence at all when you consider it's mostly the same folks (including me) repeating the same arguments, and on top of that often citing pretty niche scenarios to try and make their point. This is true for both sides, but just repeating stuff over and over isn't adding to whatever body of evidence there is in the slightest.

I'll leave the other assertions in your post be, as it's nothing new and the arguments for and against are well rehearsed. Suffice to say I disagree. ?
 
Spook

Spook

Ghostly Troll
The fact of the matter is nuker builds dont do enough dps compared to melee (and ranged) the debate is how to bring them back in line without making them OP. They are already OP in easy content but lacking in hard content.

If it was me I would look to rebalance aoe vs single target attacks and make Dots much stronger as dots are only really relevant for raid bosses.
 
D

DDO Noob

Well-known member
Sarlona Raiding said:
I don't have any skin in the game on the caster vs. martial arguments that are endless as I just play whatever build works.

My only observation is that the R7-R10 nerf was extremely crude and results in all casters doing less than 68% of the damage on R10 that they did before the nerf. I am not sure how any reasonable person can argue that wizard, warlock, caster fvs, caster cleric needed a nerf as they were already below-median builds before the nerf. This is on top of the epic strike nerf which hits those same builds hard as they were a major part of the rotation.

From a raid perspective I would always prefer to have exactly 1 caster with good cc in the group and no more, although 2 in too hot too handle is good but really you just want sorcs there or maybe 1 sorc and 1 ice druid. Melee have much better sustatined damage over time and dps is over-weighted in raids compared to quests.

From a solo perspective, casters are very good and have always had a niche as being the best soloer's. At the moment comparing my best soloing caster to my best soloing melee I would prefer my melee for 75% of the content and my caster for 25%, but some of those quests where a caster is better are extremely painful for a melee as you push skulls, e.g., Tavern Brawl which can be cheesed on a caster, Slavers II and of course nobody wants to do melee damage to the boss in Tempest Spine on R10 unless they are cheesing in a safe spot.

Much of the reason I prefer to solo on my melee for so many quests is the survivability and aoe improvements over time have been significant difference makers. My melee has better hp, AC, PRR and can stand in deliver in places my caster has to kite. Caster AOE Is still better, but my melee aoe is more than good enough. In most quests my melee clears the dungeon faster, but by a small margin. In some quests a caster is just way better at soloing it, although there might be some tricks and tips I am missing that would make my melee experience better on those quests.

Going forward I will have one solid caster for soloing and my other solid characters will be martial. In most casual raids caster contribution is pass/fail vs. scaling meaning that if you spec a first life caster for LH raiding they will perform the job effectively and you won't notice much difference between a complete character and a first-lifer. So I'll make a few first-life casters for raiding when the role is needed - which it is needed more frequently lately as fewer people are bringing casters to even casual raids.
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There is a lot of discussion here comparing casters to melee in the current state of the game. What I'm curious to know is where people think that ranged builds now stand compared to melee and casters in R7-R10 play?
 
U

Unuys

Well-known member
DDO Noob said:
There is a lot of discussion here comparing casters to melee in the current state of the game. What I'm curious to know is where people think that ranged builds now stand compared to melee and casters in R7-R10 play?
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There are lots of arti builds and monk builds going around, I think ranged is in a good place?
 
I

I dont Like gimps

Well-known member
DDO Noob said:
There is a lot of discussion here comparing casters to melee in the current state of the game. What I'm curious to know is where people think that ranged builds now stand compared to melee and casters in R7-R10 play?
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depends on the lags :) sometimes r10s take 5-10min others take 20 simply cuz Lags make half your shots dissapear
 
Guntango

Guntango

Well-known member
Unuys said:
A screenshot is worth nothing, it has no context to it.
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Fishing for “proof” that supports your case isn’t worth much, either.

You’re essentially right though, dps casters are terrible right now. Play a dc caster, melee or ranged toon. They’re all fun as hell.

The ebb and flow of SSG balancing.
 
Guntango

Guntango

Well-known member
Ped Xing said:
Game's too easy as is Gunga, you know that. I don't want to get stronger :confused:
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Game too easy at cap 12, you missed that mark by about 18 years.

You can argue fact if you’d like, but there’s a reason you admit to seeing a lot less casters. SSG should make some changes to bring casters back at end game for the folks that like to play casters. The game is fine for me, I like melee and ranged, and they’re in a great spot.
 
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