J1NG
I can do things others can't...
Unfortunately, my experience is most don't even bother. And it's easy to see when the party doesn't even have 5 others in it yet.
J1NG
There's a lot of insecure people out there
- Thread starter Bliv
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J1NG
Another option is for caster players to limit their quest / leveling / farming PUGs to casters only, let's see how much fun melee DPS (especially swf / twf) will have leveling and gearing for raids when they no longer have casters in non-raid groups. (/joke)
That said, this is the 'normal' ebb and flow of any MMO, some classes find themselves in the meta, others get the short end of the stick. Some 10 years ago, rangers would have trouble getting into any raid pug, while almost no raid or high-level quest run would start without a good CC caster (preferably wizard). The turns have tabled
This doesn't really work. There are not nearly enough players to cover multiple raid groups for the same raid. Sometimes not even enough players, for multiple raid LFMs of *different* raids, especially tanks and sometimes healers
If you make your own lfm of the same raid you'll probably sit for an hour or longer with 1-6 people and no tanks or healers.
Not really, no modern MMO that I know of has a dps difference of more than ~20% between classes for a longer time. They do regular balance patches. Also not *every* caster spec will be behind others.That said, this is the 'normal' ebb and flow of any MMO, some classes find themselves in the meta, others get the short end of the stick. Some 10 years ago, rangers would have trouble getting into any raid pug, while almost no raid or high-level quest run would start without a good CC caster (preferably wizard). The turns have tabled
One thing i have noticed in raids that the leader assumes that everyone knows the raid, doesnt bother to ask and then gets the irrits when things dont go too well. I was in a PUG Viper the other day and things werent going too well and someone made the comment, typical Orien style (ive never been on Orien, so i dont know what style that was), but as i was on my archer Orionn, it amused me that maybe i had my own style
That being said, i have led many raids over the years, done raids without x of this and x of that, we still get them done. The guild i raid with on weekends includes all classes, no class is excluded, everyone plays what they like and we get the job done. Not sure what the beef is in the OP, but its nothing to do with SSG, its totally to do with the mindset of those that lead raids/groups and dont know how to adapt when things arent going smoothly. If the game isnt a challenge at times, whats the point of playing.
That being said, i have led many raids over the years, done raids without x of this and x of that, we still get them done. The guild i raid with on weekends includes all classes, no class is excluded, everyone plays what they like and we get the job done. Not sure what the beef is in the OP, but its nothing to do with SSG, its totally to do with the mindset of those that lead raids/groups and dont know how to adapt when things arent going smoothly. If the game isnt a challenge at times, whats the point of playing.
LurkingVeteran
Well-known member
I am not even sure the top casters like Sorcs are much worse DPS than weapon users in R1 unless you need a very long time to beat down the boss. Granted, there are more ways to mess up a caster build (e.g. bad DCs, or ignoring DPS to go all in on DCs) and this might be difficult to assess.
I agree with Skulz with the fact that not having many or even any Casters makes for a faster, smoother and more guaranteed run
Totally agree with the fact that we are as adults mostly limited on time ... its the same mentality as mixing zerg groups with flower sniffers. If i dont have time i want to run things fast!
the BIG difference is that 99% of the population cannot solo end game raids (or even 100% in certain raids) so you do kind of need a grp
And my issue is not with the leaders of the raids its with the design of the raids themselves that lends to caster discrimination
If caster dps was on par with melee/ ranged then casters would be more welcome
Its not the raid leaders discriminating against the casters its that casters lag so far behind that 1 or even none are needed and hemce make sense as a raid leader to exclude them
Thats a DESIGN problem
Totally agree with the fact that we are as adults mostly limited on time ... its the same mentality as mixing zerg groups with flower sniffers. If i dont have time i want to run things fast!
the BIG difference is that 99% of the population cannot solo end game raids (or even 100% in certain raids) so you do kind of need a grp
And my issue is not with the leaders of the raids its with the design of the raids themselves that lends to caster discrimination
If caster dps was on par with melee/ ranged then casters would be more welcome
Its not the raid leaders discriminating against the casters its that casters lag so far behind that 1 or even none are needed and hemce make sense as a raid leader to exclude them
Thats a DESIGN problem
Yeah it's mostly a design problem. If ~1/2 of all possible dps specs are caster then a raid should be able to accomodate at least 6 caster dps or more.
The dps slots should be very flexible, esp. in a low pop games like DDO. It shouldn't matter if a raid has 7 caster dps and only 1 melee and 1 ranged or the other way around.
But at least partially it's also a raid leader mentality, ex. on Thelanis I never saw any "no casters" raids. People didn't care as much for the absolute lowest raid completion times.
I don't know what the problem for raids is, casters are ranged and should not get hit often at all (and you can get evasion or fairly high MRR / absorbs with a caster too)
just as a note i think threats was the third one. it was a raid i didnt catch that turned to dov then threats
Worse yet - often they don't care to explain even if someone asks for it. Like, I've joined a fairly casual DoV run the other week and made it clear that I've never done it, and please let me know whether there's anything I should know or should not do. Got a "nope, just a straightforward hack&slash raid" - I'm like OK, so it's like a Tempest Spine or a VoD, got it. 10 incomprehensible deaths later, yeah my dudes, this is not a straightforward h&s raid lol.
DDO isn't modern and is slow to update, true. But it's also true that casters were on top of the meta for the longest time before being upstaged.
I guess specific raid and raid tier do make a difference. But, if I can survive an r1 VoN on a level 22 sub-1000 HP first life bow ranger in heroic gear without dying once, I'm sure casters could do just as well (and probably better).
I guess I meant post WoW. (FFXI was the "newest" MMO I could think of that let one playstyle or class be underpowered for a LONG time).
Also, when was caster dps ever meta in DDO raids? As long as I played some kind of swf, twf, thrower was always at the top of single target dps (which matters most in raids, sometimes it's even the only thing that matters damage wise cause adds are not much of a threat)
Smokewolf
Frequently banned member.
You can thank SSG's decision to abandon the Holy (D&D) Trinity, for the "why" behind casters current situation. Quite simply, Physical DPS just don't need casters to run most content. Even then, raids today can get away with having at most one "Token" Healer and CC. (if that)
Rather than acknowledging / addressing the situation, SSG has seen fit to sandbag casting classes further, while ignoring our constructive suggestions for continued improvements. This isn't a one-off mistake, but a deliberate effort and very likely a monetarily driven one.
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J1NG
I can do things others can't...
To be honest (this isn't directed at you, just the content of what you posted here that others have echoed), but when I asked in another thread for others to chime in with their caster dps ratings (and total damage over their spell points ratings) so you can get a good idea of what can be put out by casters, there hasn't been any response by anyone else.
And I've said it before, in another thread, but the Devs simply can not trust players ideas.
But, give them hard data, or something close enough to that as per my suggestion, and the Devs can't ignore it forever.
Unfortunately, no one seems to want to play ball.
J1NG
Smokewolf
Frequently banned member.
Because they behave like inconsiderate children, who'd rather not have to deal with others directly. Even some of the more experienced (veteran) players I've run with recently, acting in ways that are outright disrespectful to the very groups they created. Its as if the other players are just there to help pad their experience bonus, provide a rez, and increase their chances at a loot drop. Beyond that... Absolutely no consideration, respect and empathy is shown.
One thing to consider....If I'm seeing this daily at cap, then imagine how it's going for first-lifers?
Smokewolf
Frequently banned member.
From the player perspective... The Dev's 100% can not be trusted to do whats in the players or games best interests. This has been proven time and time again.
J1NG
I can do things others can't...
The issue with this mentality however, is that the Devs simply don't need to do anything as they can feel everything is fine. Give them info however, and they will consider and adjust things (proven quite a few times before). Without the hard data (which is usually unbiased or something they can look at and see it's unbiased), players will be stuck as is.
I can go provide for more typical "adventurer" type of dps. But without others showing up with their own, it's going to be a hard sell to get the Devs to do anything.
J1NG
Sarlona Raiding
Well-known member
I've been in some rough LH PUGs of threats old and new. If the group doesn't have the dps and survivability it can end up with 2 or 3 people effectively completing the raid. There are some bugged builds that can do extreme damage to where it doesn't matter, but those aren't in every raid.
A few sorcs in there isn't bad as it's the fastest way to kill the oozes and that is often what is killing people or lowering group dps by distracting people from dps'ing the boss.
A well-built first life inquisitive likely will still out-dps a maxed out sorc by a large margin. It's not a bad idea to have a few dps characters at end game for raids rather than always wanting to run everything on a caster.
A few sorcs in there isn't bad as it's the fastest way to kill the oozes and that is often what is killing people or lowering group dps by distracting people from dps'ing the boss.
A well-built first life inquisitive likely will still out-dps a maxed out sorc by a large margin. It's not a bad idea to have a few dps characters at end game for raids rather than always wanting to run everything on a caster.
J1NG
I can do things others can't...
Info players have cancelled, and likely from posts posted, by being unhappy. But the reasons for being unhappy are unreliable from the Dev stand point.
We had that thread that was deleted about someone quitting who had been (bad) exploiting for a decade who had been wanting certain advantages for their situation so it gets more advantageous for them (and only them).
Unbiased and viewable info is best I've found when getting the Devs to do something or change something.
J1NG