There's a lot of insecure people out there

[Smokewolf]

Give them info however, and they will consider and adjust things (proven quite a few times before). Without the hard data (which is usually unbiased or something they can look at and see it's unbiased), players will be stuck as is.

J1NG

I can literally count on one hand the number of times I have seen this take place since 2006.

 

[J1NG]

Was recently in a LH Threats Old and New run, went in on my Wizard (yeah, that one) but had changed clothes to remain anon and look like a n00b instead.

Highest kill count, never died, did enough damage to become hate tank for a bit (so went and took Karliath over to the corner) - must have looked weird to the others that the Wizard with the least HP in the group was barely touched tanking and doing their job (well).

J1NG

 

[Smokewolf]

Was recently in a LH Threats Old and New run, went in on my Wizard (yeah, that one) but had changed clothes to remain anon and look like a n00b instead.

Highest kill count, never died, did enough damage to become hate tank for a bit (so went and took Karliath over to the corner) - must have looked weird to the others that the Wizard with the least HP in the group was barely touched tanking and doing their job (well).

J1NG

Your play / gearing / and build is likely not typical, and to use it as a loose example is effectively gaslighting other players into believing there isn't a problem or its not as bad as Smoke makes it out to be.

 

[Wizard]

A well-built first life inquisitive likely will still out-dps a maxed out sorc by a large margin. It's not a bad idea to have a few dps characters at end game for raids rather than always wanting to run everything on a caster.

Balance problem. A maxed out sorc should out dps a first life inquisitive. (no I don't want inq nerfed, rather casters buffed).

Also what's wrong with wanting to run all raids as a caster? You can run all raids as melee dps and ranged too, so....

 

[DBZ]

Top 5 problems lets do the list

1 LAG they have actually commented and say they are allegedly working on

2 Rare loot nothing

3 Inquisitors over performing

4 Massive unbalance

5 which ever one gets your goat like the vip program or all the broken gear and other things

 

[Smokewolf]

Balance problem. A maxed out sorc should out dps a first life inquisitive. (no I don't want inq nerfed, rather casters buffed).

Also what's wrong with wanting to run all raids as a caster? You can run all raids as melee dps and ranged too, so....

A maxed out Sorc should out DPS everyone easily, just not be sustainable.

Edit: It' makes me wonder about at what point is SSG going to walk away from mana bars in favor of casting "stamina". Making it possible for caster to rarely need a shrine but having a fixed limit on how hard they can cast before reaching exhaustion. (regens the stamina quickly so long as not casting) Granted, I know the idea is not popular here, but I will say that I've seen this used in other games with great success. Would just depend on how its implemented is all.

 

[woq]

Was recently in a LH Threats Old and New run, went in on my Wizard (yeah, that one) but had changed clothes to remain anon and look like a n00b instead.

Highest kill count, never died, did enough damage to become hate tank for a bit (so went and took Karliath over to the corner) - must have looked weird to the others that the Wizard with the least HP in the group was barely touched tanking and doing their job (well).

J1NG

I get what you're saying, but if you have roughly any killcount in Threats you're doing something wrong as a DPS - your main job is to hit the biggest chunk out there and cc/ignore most of the trash mobs. I'm happiest if my top dps has 0-6 killcount - it means he wasn't hitting things he wasn't supposed to.

 

[Sarlona Raiding]

Balance problem. A maxed out sorc should out dps a first life inquisitive. (no I don't want inq nerfed, rather casters buffed).

Also what's wrong with wanting to run all raids as a caster? You can run all raids as melee dps and ranged too, so....

All I can do is react to the game and that is why I only bring a caster to raid if the role is needed. It seems to me the devs over-reacted to people complaining stuff was dead before they could kill anything - and forgetting it's R1 heroic leveling so the problem isn't casters, but rather the fact that people take the path of least resistance to level and are just way over-tuned for the content.

 

[Wizard]

But there are no raids where spell damage is king (only spells not imbue!) and melee or ranged is best to be kept at 1 only (for some adds that must be killed and have 90% magic resist). See the imbalance?

 

[Smokewolf]

and are just way over-tuned for the content.

Is it any wonder when the contents stat / level bloat requires such to be successful. Gone are the days where regular groups of diversified players worked together to accomplish things. Now its the age of the Ginsu shredder where 5-8k hp melee DPS obliterate everything without much fear of dying.

 

[Fhrek]

Thats a DESIGN problem

From the player perspective... The Dev's 100% can not be trusted to do whats in the players or games best interests. This has been proven time and time again.

This!

As a player that did Shroud, VoN, VoD, HoX, Reaver's, ToD ad nausium when Dev's cared for design good raids and listen to players feedback... I'm beyond the point of losing my time providing any insights about what is or isn't working. Everytime something was working it got nerfed, on the other hand broken things still broken till this day.

I don't doubt there are many that thinks similar. Most will just quietly leave and spent time/money on another games.

 

[J1NG]

Your play / gearing / and build is likely not typical, and to use it as a loose example is effectively gaslighting other players into believing there isn't a problem or its not as bad as Smoke makes it out to be.

Because knowing DDO's mechanics, the experience of the Raid, and knowledge of your own characters limitations, doesn't make you more skilled than others at performing well in DDO?

Also, the example was given in that there can be players out there, more than capable of solo'ing the run for the 11 other pikers, but if they pop up on a class (like a Wizard) that others are shunning, then it reaffirms the issue OP was describing.

But yes, I will agree, that it also highlights that the core caster issues that are brought up often by some forum goers (including yourself) on that casters are in a bad situation, does look bad when compared to mine and what I can do on a caster (Wizard of all classes, which is often touted as the worst).

Whether it was play/gearing/build, it doesn't matter. Do you know why? Because all of my test toon builds use common things in DDO to prevent myself from ever being nerfed by the Devs.

Note, this doesn't mean I don't agree there's issues for casting casters. For example, casting casters can never cast more than 1/second or 10/10 seconds or 60/60 seconds, etc. Contrast this with other dps characters that can breach the amount of attacks per 1/10/60/x time and caster damage being limited when compared to them becomes very noticeable. And this uses the assumption that there is no Spell Points bar to every be worried about.

I get what you're saying, but if you have roughly any killcount in Threats you're doing something wrong as a DPS - your main job is to hit the biggest chunk out there and cc/ignore most of the trash mobs. I'm happiest if my top dps has 0-6 killcount - it means he wasn't hitting things he wasn't supposed to.

The killcount is mentioned as there was ranged and another caster in the mix (who was too busy dps'ing instead of tackling the trash when they should have been, likely lack of experience in Raid).

The rest is to highlight that some players have become "stuck" in a way of viewing casters as is. Much like how the old glass cannon dps'ers were like prior to LVoD (and then subsequently got humbled by it and changed appropriately). As mentioned above, yes, there are issues. But some issues can be mitigated or are a non factor but are heavily being leaned into from arguments on why casters are in trouble and need support.

J1NG

 

[woq]

I know there are plenty of people capable of delivering on LH/R1 raids sufficiently well - there are a fair few raid solos to demonstrate that. But I can't really remember the last time I saw a truly good dps caster - I've seen a fair few tanky casters, cc casters, control casters... but dps?

I'd love to be proven wrong with video evidence. I will not make a ranged caster dps character to provide info on sufficient damage dealt, because it does not seem interesting nor good and the oppourtunity cost of doing so is considerable (sentience, augs, kits, etc). It isn't cheap to switch your main from one archetype to another and until it seems appealing few will be willing to do so.

 

[LurkingVeteran]

It's a bit hard to compare in a vacuum since ranged have a much better burst via (maybe OP) epic moment in shiradi, esp. in combination with NHB. They will dominate any fight around 30 seconds. It should be closer after it runs out, until the caster has to conserve spell points and falls behind again.

The caster epic moments are kind of terrible for boss DPS, which doesn't help.

 

[Sarlona Raiding]

Because knowing DDO's mechanics, the experience of the Raid, and knowledge of your own characters limitations, doesn't make you more skilled than others at performing well in DDO?

Also, the example was given in that there can be players out there, more than capable of solo'ing the run for the 11 other pikers, but if they pop up on a class (like a Wizard) that others are shunning, then it reaffirms the issue OP was describing.

But yes, I will agree, that it also highlights that the core caster issues that are brought up often by some forum goers (including yourself) on that casters are in a bad situation, does look bad when compared to mine and what I can do on a caster (Wizard of all classes, which is often touted as the worst).

Whether it was play/gearing/build, it doesn't matter. Do you know why? Because all of my test toon builds use common things in DDO to prevent myself from ever being nerfed by the Devs.

Note, this doesn't mean I don't agree there's issues for casting casters. For example, casting casters can never cast more than 1/second or 10/10 seconds or 60/60 seconds, etc. Contrast this with other dps characters that can breach the amount of attacks per 1/10/60/x time and caster damage being limited when compared to them becomes very noticeable. And this uses the assumption that there is no Spell Points bar to every be worried about.


The killcount is mentioned as there was ranged and another caster in the mix (who was too busy dps'ing instead of tackling the trash when they should have been, likely lack of experience in Raid).

The rest is to highlight that some players have become "stuck" in a way of viewing casters as is. Much like how the old glass cannon dps'ers were like prior to LVoD (and then subsequently got humbled by it and changed appropriately). As mentioned above, yes, there are issues. But some issues can be mitigated or are a non factor but are heavily being leaned into from arguments on why casters are in trouble and need support.

J1NG

Every class is capable of soloing Threats, and even more so today with the new gear. With threats it's just a matter of mitigating the fire dot damage enough and to a lesser extent handling the Ophael poison dot. The rest is straight forward.

If there is a reasonably geared undead character in the group they are probably going to tank Ophael regardless of hp because they are immune to the poison damage which is the main danger. That is pretty standard and not something unusual or special. They are also immune to horrid wilting in the ritual room which is a big plus.

I would expect the caster in the party to lead in kill count unless someone else in the group was hyper-focused on kill count vs. doing their role properly. That isn't really an achievement - more of a hygiene issue for a caster. You don't really get credit for doing that, but if you don't do it you stink.

The specific issue with caster is that their single-target dps potential is lower and sustainability is always an issue due to sp. I am always suspicious of some achievements when I see a certain destiny because there is a massive bug that makes any class top dps in the game for a short time - the bug has been around at least 2 years and I have seen enough achievements around where I am fairly certain it's been used. When there is an achievement where someone is in the destiny and completing a raid in the time a group completes - yeah good chance they are using that bug. I have no specific issues with it because it's not an exploit, but it's clearly not working as intended either and makes inquisitive look like raid healer dps in comparison.

Raid design over-weights single-target dps and while instakill and cc may be important in some raids - you get very marginal returns having more than one person in that role.

Is it a problem? Well more than one tank, healer, dedicated debuffer also provides marginal returns and everyone seems ok with that. If you are running a caster it definitely feels like a problem because 8-9 spots in the raid are dps roles so you are trying to get in 1 spot out of 12 and casters are probably 5 characters out of 12. That is why people complain about it and at least in my opinion the complaint is justified.

For LH raids I personally think a caster does enough dps to fill a raid dps role and would not reject anyone, but usually when we post pug raids we know we are going to complete with what we are bringing to the group even if only 3-4 people. The rest of the group is just speeding it up.

I have no issues if someone isn't as a confident and declines casters. I'll just come on a martial character or join the next raid - no big deal.

 

[Qrvar]

I guess I meant post WoW. (FFXI was the "newest" MMO I could think of that let one playstyle or class be underpowered for a LONG time).

Also, when was caster dps ever meta in DDO raids? As long as I played some kind of swf, twf, thrower was always at the top of single target dps (which matters most in raids, sometimes it's even the only thing that matters damage wise cause adds are not much of a threat)

That was like pre-Eveninstar days so ancient history I guess, but casters ruled supreme for quite a while. CC / Insta more so than DPS. But it was a very different game back then.

There was also a stretch of time in late 2010s when melee DPS was absolute laughing stock, especially TWF.

 

[Smokewolf]

The specific issue with caster is that their single-target dps potential is lower and sustainability is always an issue due to sp.

Its not only an issue a sustainability due to limited spell points, but one of burst damage. With a casters greatest limitation(s) usually being the low MCL of spells and the fact that many Epic level SLA's are by design single target only.

In comparison... A melee can hit multiple targets with one swing, easily double-striking & crit'ing more than half of those. Combine this with crit-multipliers, DR & fort breaking, and Melees are a league apart from a Casters equivalent DPS. The only advantage Casters have here is ranged damage... At least until real Ranged players like Artificers and Inquisitive are factored in. Which makes even the best walking cuisinart-blenders come off as 2nd string players.

Maybe by allowing casters to hit multiples of damage (on bosses) during a critical spell (similar to physical DPS) is whats needed here. Something that's frequent enough that casters feel both "bursty" and "useful" for more than just clearing trash during raids and high Reaper. Something that would give groups / raids a reason to have more roles for Casters there, other than always being the "Token" Caster.

 

[ForeverZero]

Nothing new - it's the same like when some people did the "you have to have X minimum HP to join", forcing people who want to pug to pump HP (and pike) instead of building useful / balanced toons.

I feel you. Embarrassing moment from my youth, when cap was 20 and shroud and ToD were end game. To get my monk at the time 500 hp i took toughness an ungodly amount of times. I think around 9? I was terribly unhelpful, but hey, i met the hp requirement!

 

[Smokewolf]

I feel you. Embarrassing moment from my youth, when cap was 20 and shroud and ToD were end game. To get my monk at the time 500 hp i took toughness an ungodly amount of times. I think around 9? I was terribly unhelpful, but hey, i met the hp requirement!

WOW (World of Warcraft) has / had the feature to where a players toon, gear and stats are all viewable (offline). While many view this as a tool for discrimination, in practice it was very helpful for being able to tweak in better performance for under-performing toons. Especially for newer players that have a lot of questions about how to gear up for specific encounters.

This feature would be wonderful for DDO as it would eliminate much of the guesswork of what does and doesn't work. Without having to sift thru forums and deal with other players that are less than honest about certain things.

 

[J1NG]

I feel you. Embarrassing moment from my youth, when cap was 20 and shroud and ToD were end game. To get my monk at the time 500 hp i took toughness an ungodly amount of times. I think around 9? I was terribly unhelpful, but hey, i met the hp requirement!

Ouch, didn't need that back when I joined, it was 300 odd and make sure you're a Light Monk for the Anti-Stun.

J1NG