There's a lot of insecure people out there

[J1NG]

Every class is capable of soloing Threats, and even more so today with the new gear. With threats it's just a matter of mitigating the fire dot damage enough and to a lesser extent handling the Ophael poison dot. The rest is straight forward.

Isn't this true of virtually every raid and quest however?

J1NG

 

[ForeverZero]

WOW (World of Warcraft) has / had the feature to where a players toon, gear and stats are all viewable. While many view this as a tool for discrimination, in practice it was very helpful for being able to tweak in better performance for under-performing toons. Especially for newer players that have a lot of questions about how to gear up for specific encounters.

This feature would be wonderful for DDO as it would eliminate much of the guesswork of what does and doesn't work. Without having to sift thru forums and deal with other players that are less than honest about certain things.

I feel you, before MOTU dropped i was an idiot teenager just throwing stuff together hoping it stuck. I had some conversations about how to build a dps, which has mostly stayed the same over the years, just the means are slightly different.

I wouldn't be half as useful, nor likely still playing if it wasn't for those few players over a decade ago helping the puzzle pieces click in place.

I try to help randoms as best i can now hoping i can alliviate some of the struggle. No one wants to struggle unnecessarily, and basic information shouldn't be gatekept. What seems like basic information to us, may be that puzzle piece many newer or inexperienced players that significantly increase the value of their builds. Granted i only really know melee/ranged. Was never really big on casters so i usually try to point them in the way of people better suited to that than i am, which now is difficult since new servers, gotta learn who is who now.

But since not an idiot teen anymore, my time is very limited these days unfortunately.

 

[Alpha Tester]

I read all thread and still have the same opinion:
1- Unbalance is the company's fault. For years since they hired a 19 year old designer that laughed about the olders DDO's designers this have been an issue and this video still in youtube until today. There is no need to break what is working to add in the game the new IT thing. DDO should be more and more D&D instead it became more and more an generic mmo and they are all wow copycats. If DDO's players wanted to play wow we would be there since ever and we don't, we are an older playerbase, many don't play MMO, most play D&D, we want a lay back game and not a stressfull one. We have more money than the average player but we don't want the trouble, to me Sharn was peak content: Most quests in the same place, easy to get loot, a relative quick to get (yet confusing) slayer area and a craft easy to use and to get materials.

2- OP could open his own raids. And I say this loving to play sorcerers and I know they are viable until R6 including raids but the sorcerers I have seen in Raid Pugs have less than 2k hp and less than 3k mana so I bet these players are not ready to play any endgame this being mid reaper or raids. Yes, most of the fault is the game design but some players don't make the minimum. This weekend the group I got in took 4 wipes in fire over morgrave then we did it with six players and we could finally finish it. The players weren't raid ready and it's fine if they say so, my toon even have gear from 4 years ago and still could be usefull. Some builds are good to level, others to stay at endgame and these days a few equips will have to swap specially for threat generation and self-heals. You can open a raid: For caster only and you will be able to finish it with good casters but not the average casters. And I said good caster not great ones.

3- We must build for what we want to play. Not all leveling builds are good for cap the same way some builds for cap are a pain to level, a glass cannon should be able to survive 2 or 3 dots in a raid and new players should be smart enough and copy builds until they know the game enough to make their own. I don't enjoy melees but I have been building one and farming gear for a month because I know that when it is ready I will be able to play every content and farm for items for my casters. Now I can't choose what I will play but soon enough I will and this is why we farm past lives and invest a time in one toon: to be able to make everything work. Or almost everything since no one want to suffer because of a bad design choice.

It's sad for a raid leader to say no to a player and it's not about elitism, it's because the leader feel the responsability to finish the raid and it's not everytime that we can carry more than 2 players. DDO is a complex game and even this day we see people who wants to learn everything by themselves, that don't ask for help, that don't respect older players and don't want to join a guild to learn from the bottom, they wayt to make their own guild and be the top dog of it. There are many games inside DDO and some of them are not visible the same way as an R10 group is.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

To be honest (this isn't directed at you, just the content of what you posted here that others have echoed), but when I asked in another thread for others to chime in with their caster dps ratings (and total damage over their spell points ratings) so you can get a good idea of what can be put out by casters, there hasn't been any response by anyone else.

And I've said it before, in another thread, but the Devs simply can not trust players ideas.

But, give them hard data, or something close enough to that as per my suggestion, and the Devs can't ignore it forever.

Unfortunately, no one seems to want to play ball.

J1NG

There is probably a reason for that mate.

 

[Sarlona Raiding]

Isn't this true of virtually every raid and quest however?

J1NG

Yes which is why I think it's a good discussion point, but not relevant for balance discussions.

 

[Wizard]

To be honest (this isn't directed at you, just the content of what you posted here that others have echoed), but when I asked in another thread for others to chime in with their caster dps ratings (and total damage over their spell points ratings) so you can get a good idea of what can be put out by casters, there hasn't been any response by anyone else.

And I've said it before, in another thread, but the Devs simply can not trust players ideas.

But, give them hard data, or something close enough to that as per my suggestion, and the Devs can't ignore it forever.

Unfortunately, no one seems to want to play ball.

Where is that thread again?

My main is not caster atm so I couldn't put in any numbers, only from first lifer, low geared alts.

I think at first-lifer, low geared the gulf is might be even bigger than well geared, lots of PL. As you do half damage on almost all spells because of low DCs. Melee/ranged don't do grazing hits on 10s even with bad stats.

 

[DDO Gaming]

To be honest (this isn't directed at you, just the content of what you posted here that others have echoed), but when I asked in another thread for others to chime in with their caster dps ratings (and total damage over their spell points ratings) so you can get a good idea of what can be put out by casters, there hasn't been any response by anyone else.

this is a good startpoint for spell DPS: // https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zFlkJSMkqXEGxDnm-ZONKS_AH9Oao59EqMlSYoCMdVs/edit?gid=0#gid=0 //

And associated how to use:

 

[Kimbere]

To be honest (this isn't directed at you, just the content of what you posted here that others have echoed), but when I asked in another thread for others to chime in with their caster dps ratings (and total damage over their spell points ratings) so you can get a good idea of what can be put out by casters, there hasn't been any response by anyone else.

And I've said it before, in another thread, but the Devs simply can not trust players ideas.

But, give them hard data, or something close enough to that as per my suggestion, and the Devs can't ignore it forever.

Unfortunately, no one seems to want to play ball.

J1NG

I used to try. Getting constantly ignored regardless of the data and references submitted got old years ago and I gave up on that.

Secondly, the devs not being able to trust the players is on them and is a problem primarily of their making. From DDO's team, we get responses like this or more usually, just radio silence and crickets.

If you do not feel the candies are your flavor of choice this year, I would strongly advise not spending time farming for them nor spending the candies you have on them! It sounds like many of you would prefer to do something else with that time and those ingredients this time around, and the very best thing you can do in that situation is follow that gut instinct. Flavors may be different next time around.

Dev teams in numerous other games have managed to build good relationships with their player bases. Their games are generally much better off for it and the community as a whole is much more positive. The main key to them is that they are far more transparent and open with their communications.

 

[MrBill]

I used to try. Getting constantly ignored regardless of the data and references were submitted got old years ago and I gave up on that.

Secondly, the devs not being able to trust the players is on them and is a problem primarily of their making. From DDO's team, we get responses like this or more usually, just radio silence and crickets.


Dev teams in numerous other games have managed to build good relationships with their player bases. Their games are generally much better off for it and the community as a whole is much more positive. The main key to them is that they are far more transparent and open with their communications.

well said

 

[ForeverZero]

I used to try. Getting constantly ignored regardless of the data and references were submitted got old years ago and I gave up on that.

Secondly, the devs not being able to trust the players is on them and is a problem primarily of their making. From DDO's team, we get responses like this or more usually, just radio silence and crickets.


Dev teams in numerous other games have managed to build good relationships with their player bases. Their games are generally much better off for it and the community as a whole is much more positive. The main key to them is that they are far more transparent and open with their communications.

Exactly, everytime we talk about something being an issue its usually met with disdain, sarcasm, gaslighting, or political avoidance/deflection. Every issue I've submitted for fixing that hurts players has been met with silence, but anything thst gives players an unintentional buff gets priority over all else. Its ridiculous.

Ive just given up on trying to inform them of issues that hinder players at this point since nothing ever gets done about them.

 

[Frostwulf]

All I can say is: Tough ******* *******.
For the past D E C A D E, casters have had obscene DPS and were the most precious gems in the player base. Now Melee get a chance to shine. Boo ******* hoo. Learn a melee play style.

 

[Frostwulf]

I guess I meant post WoW. (FFXI was the "newest" MMO I could think of that let one playstyle or class be underpowered for a LONG time).

Also, when was caster dps ever meta in DDO raids? As long as I played some kind of swf, twf, thrower was always at the top of single target dps (which matters most in raids, sometimes it's even the only thing that matters damage wise cause adds are not much of a threat)

Game design problem. Raids are long and often have minimal shrines... Kinda hard to recommend a caster when they turn into level 2 club users the moment they run out of SP.

 

[Bliv]

The things you read on here...

 

[Fhrek]

The things you read on here...

I just hit the ignore option... we talking about game balance and the guy throws a "chance to shine" fing gzuis

 

[Smokewolf]

All I can say is: Tough ******* *******.
For the past D E C A D E, casters have had obscene DPS and were the most precious gems in the player base. Now Melee get a chance to shine. Boo ******* hoo. Learn a melee play style.

Nice NEW account there.... not suspect at all. Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[1Th13rteen3]

Of those who choose not to lead, many do not know how to follow.

/thread

 

[Hobgoblin]

All I can say is: Tough ******* *******.
For the past D E C A D E, casters have had obscene DPS and were the most precious gems in the player base. Now Melee get a chance to shine. Boo ******* hoo. Learn a melee play style.

naw put melee back in the mud where they belong.

i hope i never run with you.....

 

[Dhalgren]

In most raids, limiting casters is preferable for a smoother, faster run. The same logic applies to healers: you might bring just one, since that frees up an extra DPS slot. Even better, get a bard that can buff and heal. CC? You don't really neeed CC in most raids, especially at R1. This is especially important in PUGs, where you often don’t know whether the DPS joining are properly geared and/or just running random builds.

I run raids often, I explain to newcomers what to do, tell the party how to beahave in each part even if many know that already, split roles, and often I must do myself boring things like All the jumps and the talk in Skelly, because those who die have no legs most of the time.

People who join the raids are happy beause they know we won't fail and the run will be smoother and faster than elsewhere. Many PM for a spot in advance. As we are fast with so much dps, we can run several raids in a row in a few hours: if possible, during the weekend I try to run pretty much all the raids in the game. Casters? They are limited to 1, max 2, even 0 if we have a lot of dps joining. Yes, also at R1. (LH for ToN and DoV).

If you don’t like this approach, that’s fine: just make your own raid groups and invite whoever you want. That’s your choice. Complaining about how others choose to run their raids won’t help at all. Raid leaders are not there to make charity work. After a work week, I want my raids to be smooth, and for the participants to have a good time. DDO is a game, and in every game there is a meta.



If you are a caster, I do that too. If during the filling process the main roles are covered, and I know the dps is enough, I just accept a couple of casters from the LFM, so first comes first served. If you want to be declined asap, you will never have a chance to enter. If you are not a caster, I usually decline explaining we already have that role covered.

I mean you've just outlined the very problem. That argument would not hold water were casters properly balanced.

 

[Lazuli]

Also what's wrong with wanting to run all raids as a caster? You can run all raids as melee dps and ranged too, so....

This is my problem. I have several martial characters ready for raiding. And I like to play them. But I want to play them just as easily with my other caster characters. What's wrong with being able to play raids just as often on my uber-completionist wizard as on my weapon-user characters (who have a fair amount of work behind them in the build, but not as much as my main character)?

Because knowing DDO's mechanics, the experience of the Raid, and knowledge of your own characters limitations, doesn't make you more skilled than others at performing well in DDO?

Also, the example was given in that there can be players out there, more than capable of solo'ing the run for the 11 other pikers, but if they pop up on a class (like a Wizard) that others are shunning, then it reaffirms the issue OP was describing.

But yes, I will agree, that it also highlights that the core caster issues that are brought up often by some forum goers (including yourself) on that casters are in a bad situation, does look bad when compared to mine and what I can do on a caster (Wizard of all classes, which is often touted as the worst).

Whether it was play/gearing/build, it doesn't matter. Do you know why? Because all of my test toon builds use common things in DDO to prevent myself from ever being nerfed by the Devs.

There are several things I'd like to clarify here. First, I agree with you that people greatly underestimate what a wizard can do. And I know this because with a wizard I do things that others say are impossible. In general, I find that the builds people do nowadays are bad for wizards. Many players gimp themselves by following the DDO wizard build tradition, which has imposed certain ideas on the class's builds that aren't beneficial to their performance.

And this could apply, although to a lesser extent, to other casters. So, well, you can say that part of the problem lies with the players.

Now, you can't say: there isn't a problem with casters and raids.

There's no doubt that raids are designed for weapons. The moment the only challenge is sustained DPS, magic is at a disadvantage. The moment there are a million immunities to magic but not to weapons, you know who's at a disadvantage. We also can't forget that developers are obsessed with bosses and barely give room to CC or IKs in raids; that's a tertiary or almost non-existent role in modern raids. And why are all bosses immune to CC and not damage? Where are the damage-immune bosses that NEED be controlled?

Second, there's a problem with caster DPS. It's not as big as some say, but it's undeniable that in burst and sustained DPS, casters are behind. You say, there are several ToN solo completions with a wizard, you're exaggerating. It's true, a wizard can solo that raid. But what were those completion times compared to weapon users solos? Wizard completions took much longer than weapon user ones. Mind you: I'm not taking any credit away from those wizard completions. It's not easy to just solo a raid. But times are what they are, and they are what they are because caster DPS is way behind of weapons.

Look, when top-ten players who loved casters have thrown in the towel and are now martial toons, it's for a reason. If it were just a matter of build, there would be top-ten players playing casters.

Third, because most people don't do a great job with caster builds, and very few uber players play casters, what you're going to get with a pug is a majority of bad casters, which will weigh down the raid and make leaders hesitant to pick casters.

Don't tell me that a well-built caster can do much more than many of those leaders who reject casters believe. I know. I know because my casters can do it. I know that a caster can be very useful on low difficulty in a raid. I know. From experience. But many casters on pugs aren't going to be that useful. And on a pug, a poorly built/geared martial generally does more than a poorly built/geared caster.

And then we have the last thing. Look, I know that casters are more useful than some people think. But we can't fool ourselves. Our DPS is gimped compared to what a well-built martial can offer. It's reality. We can't turn a blind eye to it. Yes, next to a bad martial toons, a good caster may look good. But with a well-constructed martial build, they'll be left behind. That's the way it is.

 

[J1NG]

Yes which is why I think it's a good discussion point, but not relevant for balance discussions.

That's because you are missing essential context of why I keep bringing up this caster. But I will not add more to that until others discover it for themselves. Just like how I never acknowledged that I had achieved an infinite dodge toon from a decade ago via legal (non bug/exploit) means until it's been discovered or the path found by others first (such as more recently).

J1NG