There's a lot of insecure people out there
- Thread starter Bliv
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Jack Jarvis Esquire
Well-known member
That may be true, but it can be argued that it is not necessary to do so, based on the fact that player skill clearly trumps any spell damage deficiency in this case.
I'd concede it's not a very representative use case though.
SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
Many DPS benchmarks over-represent ranged DPS because of how strong Inexorable Advance is lol. But yeah, the ideal is having metrics at both short durations as well as longer durations (like duoing LVoD with a self-sufficient tank as an approximation for DPSing a higher-difficult raid). Burst DPS can be valuable both for questing (bosses, Doom rooms, etc) and raiding (Time Stop windows etc) - but especially for newer raids sustained DPS is often very impactful as well.
Specifically for slog content the Primal Mantle w/Evergreen helps casters a lot, especially when filling utility roles as needed (heals, DC stuff, etc). Also FS strike is super cheap filler (and Sonic works great) which I've grown to enjoy, especially as it comes with Echoes of Discord which are a nice AoE heal as well.
Some quick math for very sustainable caster DPS, factoring only 30% Sonic Vuln from FS. 800 Sonic w/2x avg crit puts it at 8200 avg damage, plus Echoes for 11k puts a 16s rotation at 5k DPS. Add on Draconic mantle for ~4.5k DPS w/1k main spellpower and 2x avg crit and you're at 9k DPS for 23 spell points/minute, while still having almost half your GCD's available for utility/healing/damage spells at your leisure (7/16). Not to say this is optimal building in any way, but hitting 800 Sonic w/metas included is trivial and Sonic works on ~everything. Can pretty easily get 30% extra damage via other debuffs to hit that 12k DPS from your example (which I'm aware was spitballed, but I've also seen plenty of DPS-focused toons below 12k lol - I tanked a TON the other day where the 5 DPS in the party had ~35k boss DPS combined).
If that was the solo DPS used in a 60m boss fight, it would take 83 minutes and cost 1875 spell points (please click other buttons and bring other friends). I'm not here to say this is a good standalone build (it's really not), but more or less any caster *could* use that setup to get passable sustained DPS (or use Evergreen esp w/multihit or spammable spells, Evergreen + FS strike & Meteor/MV is a ton of procs). With E/LRoSS let alone a reasonable SP pool there's also a lot of leeway for burst DPS, other SLA's, etc. You could almost do that on a Fighter lol (although no metas or class support would make SP/crit a lot harder to pump, and you'd need some mad debuffs).
All of that to say it's possible to build for more sustained/efficient DPS on a caster should that be the design goal, but I'd still pick nearly any Inquis build as a superior single-target DPS option for raiding. I'm happy to have a DPS caster or three in the group when raid leading though, especially with good players running them who are flexible at handling various situations (like a Druid blast-caster that can throw some heals, or a Sorc that can spam IK trash on-demand). If ya bring a Wizzy and smash GRuin/Ruin on CD it's a different game lol.
Svirfneblin
Well-known member
Best part about fewer casters in raids means there’s fewer casters leveling up and more lost souls for me thank you
LurkingVeteran
Well-known member
Agree, but to actually get decent DPS with this sustain you are limited to very few sonic-based builds like stormsinger or maybe air savant or sonic AM. PA has an internal cooldown btw, so I'm not sure if wasting the sp on meteor is worth it over just spamming FS strike and other SLAs with thunderbolt (or iceberg). Don't forget the dripping w/ magma procs as well.
It's possible but it's only good with a few very specific builds. You can get decent spell DPS out of a Henshin 20 with only Ki-bolt as well, but you are not playing a DnD caster like expected.
I think you should be able to build a normal DnD caster and it should be at least competitive.
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SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
I mean 800 SP with metas is like 500 which is doable on like a healbot Cleric lmao (the crit probably isn't though; same for me joking about a Fighter being able to do FS rotations). A build focused around Sonic would absolutely have better results, but I'm looking for what's more achievable sorta universally.
Meteor/MV/etc are just fast procs of Evergreen lol. If you have enough procs from other sources or sufficiently efficient rotation DPS I'd expect a different mantle to be better (EA for burst heals, Magus for MRR, Draconic for DPS?). Also Meteor/MV are amazing for AoE as relevant (comes up more in questing, but sometimes useful in raids).
FS strike is 2SP (with 2s CD) but you get 10 back every 15s via Echoes of Discord, so it's approximately free (technically free or positive SP generation at 3-5 strikes/Echoes). That's as sustainable as melees/ranged are, which was what I'm comparing. Not at the same numbers, but with quite low opportunity cost to your build.
At an eyeball I'd expect Ice w/Magus T5 to be most efficient raid casters (either Druid w/Tsunami + Ice Flowers or Sorc w/Iceberg sorta things) with both getting Iceberg SLA & also PA SLA (and Time Stop, which is amazing for raiding). For that matter Ice Lance is quite efficient and a lot less button-mashing, but it's T5-limited unlike FS.
DWM, Chained Elemental rings (I like Acid + Cold personally), DoV stick(s) etc all add up. Again, I'm just saying that it's possible to have sustained baseline DPS on ~any caster that can afford FS T3.
I've def run Ki Bolt stuff and have some of the fun screenshots to prove it, but it's not what I would consider a caster either. Plays more like an Adrenaline glass cannon if you really go for it, otherwise it's more akin to FS strike spamming (cheap sustainable mediocre single-target DPS - better than FS strike but more limited in build).
12k DPS x 10 DPS toons (plus a healer and a tank) would put that 60m raid boss down in 500 seconds, or 8 minutes and change (it's longer b/c Reaper, trash, etc but also can have debuffs, moments, and non-sustainable DPS as well lol). I'd be pretty happy if the minimum baseline for level 30+ PUG toons was 12k DPS, but YMMV for who ya get.
Willsave20
Indie Game Developer
You sound like you fit into the demographic you describe as well.
Dielzen
Well-known member
Ironically I led an r1 eChrono/eVoN PUG last nite and had this issue
I was in the middle of doing several things at once to progress the raid, saw a join request and accepted it, only for 3 people to get auto-declined cause the spot filled.
I felt pretty #$%@ about that, but what was done was done. I just straight up didn't notice the join requests.
Guntango
Well-known member
This wouldn’t bother melee a bit, lol.Another option is for caster players to limit their quest / leveling / farming PUGs to casters only, let's see how much fun melee DPS (especially swf / twf) will have leveling and gearing for raids when they no longer have casters in non-raid groups. (/joke)
That said, this is the 'normal' ebb and flow of any MMO, some classes find themselves in the meta, others get the short end of the stick. Some 10 years ago, rangers would have trouble getting into any raid pug, while almost no raid or high-level quest run would start without a good CC caster (preferably wizard). The turns have tabled
Bliv
Well-known member
There was a time when this would have been true. Nowadays? Maybe. Maybe not.
I don’t claim to be an angel. I do get carried away and post stupid stuff on here at times.
But one thing I don’t do is exclude people—unless they give me a very good reason.
(And playing an out-of-meta class isn’t one of the reasons that would motivate me to deny someone.)
I recently led a few raids (Threat and Den) and sent a tell to an applicant because I felt we were a bit too caster-heavy. I asked if he had something else to bring and saved him a spot so he could swap. I didn’t deny him or leave him hanging until the group filled.
LurkingVeteran
Well-known member
I've previously also pointed to FS as a good sustain option but you miss the point.
1) Unless you invest in sonic, especially crit%, you are likely going to have pretty garbo DPS (7-8k maybe?), and even if you do it's not on par with martial DPS,
2) Why should casters have to invest in FS3, sonic and spam sonic SLAs to be useful in long boss fights? We are talking about abusing one specific SLA. Martial classes can pick almost any style they like and it will work OK.
Nothing else really matches in sustain, feel free to math it out the rotations.
vryxnr
Well-known member
This is an oversimplified take, but one of the problems here is that the devs don't seem to know how to make small changes. It's always a sledgehammer swinging hard with lots of collateral damage. Once upon a time, things were essentially reversed. Casters were dominating, melee's felt useless, and many melee centric players either changed to casters or quit the game entirely because of it. Yes, this actually was how things were at once point in time. Instead of small changes to bring them closer together, we get giant hammer swings that cause too much damage. Remember the handwraps nerf that was really only due to one specific build at cap overperforming but ended up destroying the entire leveling process as well? I do. And it feels like all attempts at balance have been huge overcorrections that end up causing the "meta" to swing wildly rather than subtle adjustments to bring forth actual balance.
Of course, the counter argument could be that some people say large changes to the meta is a good thing, so long as it happens regularly (say, every major update / every 1-2 months), so that being "teh best" by doing the meta is always changing and thus is always fresh/interesting/doesn't get stale. Of course, DDO at this point in time is not such a game, balance changes are slow and far between and players here prefer to settle into something comfortable and long term, so balance updates to change the "meta" become less "change to something new" and more "you ruined my character/play experience" and that gets felt for years at a time instead of 1-2 months in games where meta shifts are common.
On the other hand, there have been some attempts at subtle balance changes, and (from what I recall) they get met with "not good enough" and "what a waste of dev time for something that is inconsequential" from the vocal players here. So it ends up feeling like a lose-lose-lose situation. Do big changes and get hated on. Do small changes and get hated on. Do no changes and get hated on... but at least with doing nothing the notion of "this is just how it is" might settle in, so some may see it as the least problematic way forwards.
To be fair, balance while also keeping general playstyles feeling unique in a system that allows for such varied build complexity as DDO does, is no easy task, and it is possible to go too far in the effort to make everything balanced. One of the things I hated about d&d 4e (as an example) is how overly balanced and homogenous everything felt. It was very balanced, to the point where every class felt and played the same. The attacks and powers had different names and did different damage types, but were otherwise identical in mechanics (1d10 at range once per rest, 1d6 within 5' at will, etc, etc, etc, for everyone, allowing every class to be equally viable in all situations... super balanced, and boring as all hell).
Of course, the counter argument could be that some people say large changes to the meta is a good thing, so long as it happens regularly (say, every major update / every 1-2 months), so that being "teh best" by doing the meta is always changing and thus is always fresh/interesting/doesn't get stale. Of course, DDO at this point in time is not such a game, balance changes are slow and far between and players here prefer to settle into something comfortable and long term, so balance updates to change the "meta" become less "change to something new" and more "you ruined my character/play experience" and that gets felt for years at a time instead of 1-2 months in games where meta shifts are common.
On the other hand, there have been some attempts at subtle balance changes, and (from what I recall) they get met with "not good enough" and "what a waste of dev time for something that is inconsequential" from the vocal players here. So it ends up feeling like a lose-lose-lose situation. Do big changes and get hated on. Do small changes and get hated on. Do no changes and get hated on... but at least with doing nothing the notion of "this is just how it is" might settle in, so some may see it as the least problematic way forwards.
To be fair, balance while also keeping general playstyles feeling unique in a system that allows for such varied build complexity as DDO does, is no easy task, and it is possible to go too far in the effort to make everything balanced. One of the things I hated about d&d 4e (as an example) is how overly balanced and homogenous everything felt. It was very balanced, to the point where every class felt and played the same. The attacks and powers had different names and did different damage types, but were otherwise identical in mechanics (1d10 at range once per rest, 1d6 within 5' at will, etc, etc, etc, for everyone, allowing every class to be equally viable in all situations... super balanced, and boring as all hell).
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Bliv
Well-known member
This might be one of the smartest things I've ever read on the forums. Very articulate and on point, vryxnr.
You see, I started this thread out of anger and never expected so many people to jump in and share their thoughts. I've read every post, and a lot of what is being said makes a lot of sense. I do not have to agree with everything to see value in what people say.
My original intention, beyond the anger, was not to downplay the fact that there will always be a meta, or that raid leaders are allowed to do as they see fit. Leading is not an easy thing, and, as some already mentioned, no one is entitled to someone else's time. Sometimes, you just want to go fast, and that is perfectly fine.
I might have posted my original post out of anger because of how I feel about my ability to play any class at a high level. That was my ego talking.
But, beyond that, I was also trying to convey the love that I have for out-of-the-box builds, for out-of-meta characters. I'm amazed sometimes when seeing the builds some people come up with. I try to emulate that in my own way. I like to push myself by playing out-of-meta characters and by finding ways to make them work.
And I felt that I did that with my sorcerer. Hence the anger and frustration whenever I would simply be left hanging, knowing I could contribute just as much as anyone in the group.
Balance is not an easy thing, which is why I'm advocating for more tolerance and inclusion when it comes to raids and casters.
If SSG can't or won't balance things properly, it is up to us to balance it out by being inclusive.
Surely, you can go from a 12-minute and 32-second completion in Threat to a 13-minute and 53-second completion by allowing one or two casters in your group.
Is that so much to ask?
You see, I started this thread out of anger and never expected so many people to jump in and share their thoughts. I've read every post, and a lot of what is being said makes a lot of sense. I do not have to agree with everything to see value in what people say.
My original intention, beyond the anger, was not to downplay the fact that there will always be a meta, or that raid leaders are allowed to do as they see fit. Leading is not an easy thing, and, as some already mentioned, no one is entitled to someone else's time. Sometimes, you just want to go fast, and that is perfectly fine.
I might have posted my original post out of anger because of how I feel about my ability to play any class at a high level. That was my ego talking.
But, beyond that, I was also trying to convey the love that I have for out-of-the-box builds, for out-of-meta characters. I'm amazed sometimes when seeing the builds some people come up with. I try to emulate that in my own way. I like to push myself by playing out-of-meta characters and by finding ways to make them work.
And I felt that I did that with my sorcerer. Hence the anger and frustration whenever I would simply be left hanging, knowing I could contribute just as much as anyone in the group.
Balance is not an easy thing, which is why I'm advocating for more tolerance and inclusion when it comes to raids and casters.
If SSG can't or won't balance things properly, it is up to us to balance it out by being inclusive.
Surely, you can go from a 12-minute and 32-second completion in Threat to a 13-minute and 53-second completion by allowing one or two casters in your group.
Is that so much to ask?
vik
Well-known member
Telling us to figure out what dps trick you learned then claiming we need to factor that in the conversation...we haven't figured it out. Why not tell us so we can try for ourselves and decide if casters still need buffing? Otherwise sure, it's a neat trick but irrelevant to the conversation.
Go take a look at Einar Mal's times killing stuff on a wizard if you want better DPS than I could ever produce: dps test.
If you're talking about ki bolt, do we need to qualify this conversation by saying we're only talking about pure casters?
Alpha Tester
Well-known member
It still amazes me of how many people think that they know DDO without actually knowing it. Lots of people trying to disprove Jinx but probably never played with him or watched him playing. Remembers me 5 years ago that people tought that 110 dc on a wizard was top notch while other people had 128 dc and then 138 dc with sharn gear. Sometimes from the bottom people only can see the middle. And on the middle they can only see more middle. Almost all players in DDO are cool people and no one became top notch being a bad or unpolite person and they all love to talk about ddo and share builds, just go ahead and ask. For people that really want to learn DDO there are tons of great guilds to guide you.
There are many games inside DDO and few people know them all. Of course Jinx or any other top player can be wrong from time to time but people seems to be discussing only for the sake of it. Just take the dude's word for a fact, if you disagree just prove that he is wrong and he will be thankfull to learn something new. Couple days ago Thrane had a TOAN made with casters only and one barbarian and it was fine, someone even said that they would post in this forum.
It doesn't work that way.
2 days ago I joined a random DoV: 3 casters, 2 players had 1300 and 1500 HP circa. The 2 low-hp players died over 4 times each, the DPS was low, we almost wiped. I had to refill lanterns 4 times and take care of 2-3 snakes at the same time on my own.
The group went to ToN afterwards, I left, a guy I know got my spot. About 45 minutes later I started filling my own ToN - they were still inside, and finished at about the 55m mark.
I didn't have a good experience in DoV, he didn't in ToN. This shows how in Pugs you must be stricter because you don't know what you gonna find. Going full DPS is just the minimum requirement because no one can guarantee that those DPS are actually good or not.