There's a lot of insecure people out there

[Lazuli]

It doesn't work that way.

2 days ago I joined a random DoV: 3 casters, 2 players had 1300 and 1500 HP circa. The 2 low-hp players died over 4 times each, the DPS was low, we almost wiped. I had to refill lanterns 4 times and take care of 2-3 snakes at the same time on my own.

The group went to ToN afterwards, I left, a guy I know got my spot. About 45 minutes later I started filling my own ToN - they were still inside, and finished at about the 55m mark.

I didn't have a good experience in DoV, he didn't in ToN. This shows how in Pugs you must be stricter because you don't know what you gonna find. Going full DPS is just the minimum requirement because no one can guarantee that those DPS are actually good or not.

Yes, this has been my point from the beginning. A raid made up of good casters can complete modern raids without problems (in more time than an equivalent group of weapon dpsers), but in a pug, you don't usually get great builds all the time.

People join with their alts, with characters in the process of development, not always with the best gear and certainly not always with the best build. Which is perfectly fine; it would be ridiculous to expect that only veteran mains with meta builds could join pug raids. That would be the last straw.

But it is true that these so-called "normal" characters function better as weapon users than as casters. Therefore, the result of this is that in many pugs, having too many casters puts the raid completion at risk or even prolongs it unduly.

I'm also of the opinion that limiting entry to just two casters in LH is ridiculous, because the difficulty doesn't justify being so strict, even if your pug isn't good at DPS. But this is happening with many raid leaders, and it's something that bothers a lot of people, because this wouldn't be happening if raid design were correct.

I blame raid design for this, not the raid leaders, although I would call some leaders who are taking an overly extreme position to account, because this is starting to resemble an unnecessary anti-caster inquisition.

But yes. I don't set the bar so low for casters, but I also look at how many casters there are in the party and cut them off as soon as I think their weapon DPS is low. And if I see enough dpsers that I've already seen as good for the raid's difficulty, then I admit anyone without restrictions.

I hate doing this. I hate it. But my experience is that too many casters in modern raids leads to a high probability of a bad run.

And a small part of this is due to the fact that the DPS caster isn't what it should be, but a large part of it falls on the design of modern raids. Come on, don't tell me you think having bosses with inflated HP and gogo immunities for magic as the only challenge is intelligent raid design. Come on, devs, you can do much better.

 

[vik]

It still amazes me of how many people think that they know DDO without actually knowing it. Lots of people trying to disprove Jinx but probably never played with him or watched him playing. Remembers me 5 years ago that people tought that 110 dc on a wizard was top notch while other people had 128 dc and then 138 dc with sharn gear. Sometimes from the bottom people only can see the middle. And on the middle they can only see more middle. Almost all players in DDO are cool people and no one became top notch being a bad or unpolite person and they all love to talk about ddo and share builds, just go ahead and ask. For people that really want to learn DDO there are tons of great guilds to guide you.
There are many games inside DDO and few people know them all. Of course Jinx or any other top player can be wrong from time to time but people seems to be discussing only for the sake of it. Just take the dude's word for a fact, if you disagree just prove that he is wrong and he will be thankfull to learn something new. Couple days ago Thrane had a TOAN made with casters only and one barbarian and it was fine, someone even said that they would post in this forum.

I'm not saying he's lying, but what I am saying is that most people have not figured it out so it's irrelevant to the point. If he can do leet dps but no one else can, who cares? Gee, isn't gatekeeping awesome? What a waste of time.

 

[Bliv]

It doesn't work that way.

2 days ago I joined a random DoV: 3 casters, 2 players had 1300 and 1500 HP circa. The 2 low-hp players died over 4 times each, the DPS was low, we almost wiped. I had to refill lanterns 4 times and take care of 2-3 snakes at the same time on my own.

The group went to ToN afterwards, I left, a guy I know got my spot. About 45 minutes later I started filling my own ToN - they were still inside, and finished at about the 55m mark.

I didn't have a good experience in DoV, he didn't in ToN. This shows how in Pugs you must be stricter because you don't know what you gonna find. Going full DPS is just the minimum requirement because no one can guarantee that those DPS are actually good or not.

I know, Skulz.

I’ve been in these kinds of runs too. I get it.

But let’s be honest: the elephant in the room here is that a lot of vets don’t want to run with subpar—or inexperienced—players because it slows them down.

 

[Cildar]

Threat Old and New.

But, as Driaza is pointing out, it is not the only one. Just the most obvious.

Really, someone had a no more than one caster rule on TON hard? LOL.

 

[Cildar]

I agree with Skulz with the fact that not having many or even any Casters makes for a faster, smoother and more guaranteed run

Totally agree with the fact that we are as adults mostly limited on time ... its the same mentality as mixing zerg groups with flower sniffers. If i dont have time i want to run things fast!

the BIG difference is that 99% of the population cannot solo end game raids (or even 100% in certain raids) so you do kind of need a grp

And my issue is not with the leaders of the raids its with the design of the raids themselves that lends to caster discrimination

If caster dps was on par with melee/ ranged then casters would be more welcome

Its not the raid leaders discriminating against the casters its that casters lag so far behind that 1 or even none are needed and hemce make sense as a raid leader to exclude them

Thats a DESIGN problem

Caster DPS is on par with both of those if built right and on Hard. Jesus. You people.

 

[Cildar]

Was recently in a LH Threats Old and New run, went in on my Wizard (yeah, that one) but had changed clothes to remain anon and look like a n00b instead.

Highest kill count, never died, did enough damage to become hate tank for a bit (so went and took Karliath over to the corner) - must have looked weird to the others that the Wizard with the least HP in the group was barely touched tanking and doing their job (well).

J1NG

Absolutely. The perception that casters can't keep up with others is dumb in LH. High reaper raids with their DC requirements shifting might be different but for fucks sake it's hard he is talking about. Literally Rune collecting.

 

[Bliv]

Really, someone had a no more than one caster rule on TON hard? LOL.

Even worse: a no-caster rule.

 

[Bliv]

but for fucks sake it's hard he is talking about. Literally Rune collecting.

My exact thoughts.

 

[Skulz]

I know, Skulz.

I’ve been in these kinds of runs too. I get it.

But let’s be honest: the elephant in the room here is that a lot of vets don’t want to run with subpar—or inexperienced—players because it slows them down.

I don't do that, but what's the issue there? Their LFM, their rules. You can't force someone to play with subpar/ineperienced players if they don't want to. Again, this is a game not a charity association, they must have fun with the people they play with.

Such discussions will only bring to a result: raids/R10s will fill privately and you won't even see them pop up in the lfm till they have 1-2 spots free for fillers. Then, you will be really forced to make your own LFM isntead of complaining here.

 

[Thad]

If you live by this Philosophy you will have no worries for the end of your days.

 

[Smokewolf]

I see far too many posts here of people blatantly gas-lighting to attempt to suggest that the problems raised by the OP and others are without merit. All this gas-lighting does is kick the can down the road such that the Dev's don't have to own their mistakes.

 

[Wizard]

Couple days ago Thrane had a TOAN made with casters only and one barbarian and it was fine, someone even said that they would post in this forum.

What difficulty, how long did it take and did the barbarian have to carry (ex. chains SDK barb is insane dps)?

Caster DPS is on par with both of those if built right and on Hard.

Care to share the build?

 

[Alpha Tester]

What difficulty, how long did it take and did the barbarian have to carry (ex. chains SDK barb is insane dps)?


Care to share the build?

On hard, took about 15 minutes and was a safe run without wipes. Lots of people healing each other and it was fine. I didn't paid much attention to the builds but I was on a barb 6 cleric 14 to get the last dhampyr past life. Without the R6+ nerf casters are fine but take a lot of work to build it well while most melees only need a raid weapon with the right filigree set and the survivability is the healer's problem.

Even post R6 casters are viable but survivability always been an issue because even a good one will be dead with 3 dots.

And saying this: It's a design fault, not the players fault. We should be able to choose our classes and instead we are always playing what the company decides for us. Warlock nerf is one example, the ravenloft belt nerfed because it worked (and their excuse is that every caster used it), the old ED Meld that gave first lifers a chance to survive some seconds when a doom reaper show up... the list is endless and the playerbase should be able to riot with the whallet closed and say no to this kind of things ortherwise the rare loot became common mechanics and DDO becames another generic online slot machine.

There are many games in ddo and a triple completionist plays with a first life but this little fellow have no idea of what is happening. And even between the triple completionists there are different tiers, speed to play, most able to teach because they love DDO and want to run the best content without trouble. It's a game on their own after all reincarnations are gained and all the RP are filled.

 

[Alpha Tester]

I'm not saying he's lying, but what I am saying is that most people have not figured it out so it's irrelevant to the point. If he can do leet dps but no one else can, who cares? Gee, isn't gatekeeping awesome? What a waste of time.

There is the time for everything. I have taught ddo for hundreds of players and I pay special attention to the players that don't speak any english. There is no gatekeeping in asking for someone if they think they are ready for the raid, if they got curse pots even because they will not have fun dying in less than 5 seconds. There is the time to learn, there is the time to equip, there is the time to farm items, to pike and be carried when a build goes bad and so on.

There is no gatekeeping, there is: I want to have fun on the raid, I can carry one or two new players but can't carry 11 players. My guild do raids with 3 people and we let anyone in but we can't operate miracles because some only want to be carried and others only try to join to create problems.

 

[Wizard]

So what's the caster build that can do comparable single target damage to melee and ranged? So maybe we can prove the raid leaders "no casters / 1-2 casters only" wrong.

 

[DBZ]

So what's the caster build that can do comparable single target damage to melee and ranged? So maybe we can prove the raid leaders "no casters / 1-2 casters only" wrong.

You already know they don't exist period

 

[Wizard]

Alpha tester was claiming there is a caster build that does good damage at least up to hard.

 

[DBZ]

I'd lmao but you know

 

[Alpha Tester]

So what's the caster build that can do comparable single target damage to melee and ranged? So maybe we can prove the raid leaders "no casters / 1-2 casters only" wrong.

Don't confuse things. Don't put things in my text that I didn't wrote.

Reaper nerf post r6 is one thing. This made most players quit them but still viable but not the "it thing". They just require a lot of investiment and most players don't want this trade off.
Non equipped casters in raids without the minimum caster past lives are another thing. Even the equipped ones are squish, the non equipped are way squisher. And not only casters are being this way but most of them since they need more investiment to build good defenses.


And I never said " "no casters / 1-2 casters only" wrong.". Said lots of times that this is a game design problem AND a players problem. From the design point of view we can't do anything, from the players perspective they could be better equipped for raids that is a different equip for high reaper and for leveling.

The raid leader can do as he please and everyone can open their own raid. OP is blaming the players for a design problem but we don't know the whole story, don't know if he messaged the raid leader and so on. And you that call yourself wizard is only trying to be sophist with me instead of learning how to play with a wizard, so you could probably run a bard because that would suit you best.

 

[Wizard]

I see. We need to get SSG on board to improve casters, especially for raids. Not sure how though, since there's been radio silence. Maybe more hard damage comparison numbers?

And my forum name "Wizard" is just a nickname that I had on the web for a long time, before DDO. I play all classes in DDO, but sorcerers more often than Wizards in terms of casters.