This may sound odd

Muggins

Member
Like most traps, you have to have a rogue (or some toon with disable device) to fix it, and the game teaches that lesson in its very first adventure.
No. That's not what it teaches. It teaches in the first quest that there is a buff that can be given that means you never die. It teaches you that there are traps in quests. It teaches that there are npc friends in the quest that can disable traps for you. It teaches you that you can not disable a trap. It teaches all sorts of stuff, but not that you (the player) have to bring a rogue you have recruited to come with you into a quest to disable traps.

It doesn't teach you that you need to group with other players. It doesn't teach you how to post an lfm. It doesn't teach you how to get a hire from the vendor. The very first hireling vendor in Korthos does NOT even have a rogue hire. There is no tutorial on how to buy a rogue hire in the DDO store.

So when new players (especially if they are in a group with other new players) die to a trap because they are not you who can say "I've done this quest a thousand times so I know the "trick" to bypass." They die. Over and over, they die. And you want a morale killer? Total party kill from a trap. It's one thing for one guy to die, but the whole group? They feel like losers. That is not them being poor players. That is poor quest design. Tell me 6 people dying makes any of them more enthusiastic for this new game they've only invested 2 to 40 hours in?

Screw that, lots more better designed games out there. They will, and they do, go find those games.
 

Titus Ovid

Mover and Shaker
You saying that because they encounter an obstacle that they don't have a solution at hand and need to think about and may come up with an alternative way they grow frustrated and leave the game?

I sincerely say to those people that this is the wrong game for you. A game without any kind of effort loses its appeal very fast. People play games because they are fun. Why are they fun? Because they have success in some kind or form. You can't have success if you don't have an obstacle to overcome.

Does the game needs better tutorials? Heck yes. Do you need to get everything without effort? No way.

Cheers,
Titus
 

Ahpuch

Well-known member
... And you want a morale killer? Total party kill from a trap. It's one thing for one guy to die, but the whole group? They feel like losers. That is not them being poor players. That is poor quest design. ...
You started with some good stuff but this part I have to question. What quest in the first 2 to 40 hours has traps that provide a total party wipe? Were they running on Reaper, Elite? It seems like a rant without basis.

And a total party wipe occasionally is a good thing. It tells players that they need to try and to pay attention. If this was perma death (these new players weren't on HC were they??) I could may be see your point but Release and run back is not actually that hard.
 

PersonMan

Well-known member
Considering the warning for party requirement on some quests, a warning for non-bypassable traps "trapper required" does not sound like too big of an ask, but we do want to be wary of going too far (warning players about every obstacle). The main thing to me is we don't want to make new players feel like they are wasting their time or being forced into buying store items. Currently I cannot think of a single non-raid quests where a trapper is actually required. Most traps can be avoided manually, but there are a few places it is not so possible and either a trapper, evasion, or good defensive statistics is needed.

A side note: there is still 1 force trap in The Pit main shaft that still does ~200 damage, it has been like this for a decade. It is a remnant from the brief period where every force trap there did that much and you actually had to time them.
 

Phoenicis

Savage's Husband
A side note: there is still 1 force trap in The Pit main shaft that still does ~200 damage, it has been like this for a decade. It is a remnant from the brief period where every force trap there did that much and you actually had to time them.

Yeah, that bugger got me on HC the other day. Left me with like 25 hp.
 

Kheledon

Well-known member
Considering the warning for party requirement on some quests, a warning for non-bypassable traps "trapper required" does not sound like too big of an ask, but we do want to be wary of going too far (warning players about every obstacle). The main thing to me is we don't want to make new players feel like they are wasting their time or being forced into buying store items. Currently I cannot think of a single non-raid quests where a trapper is actually required. Most traps can be avoided manually, but there are a few places it is not so possible and either a trapper, evasion, or good defensive statistics is needed.

A side note: there is still 1 force trap in The Pit main shaft that still does ~200 damage, it has been like this for a decade. It is a remnant from the brief period where every force trap there did that much and you actually had to time them.
The fire-trap room in the third dungeon of the Shan-To-Kor chain is pretty deadly if you're running it at level. Over-level it gets heinous, but that's the only low-level quest with truly deadly and unavoidable traps of which I am aware.
 

Mindos

CHAOTIC EVIL
Yeah, that bugger got me on HC the other day. Left me with like 25 hp.
A side note: there is still 1 force trap in The Pit main shaft that still does ~200 damage, it has been like this for a decade. It is a remnant from the brief period where every force trap there did that much and you actually had to time them.
No guarantee, but a /loc and a screenshot might get this fixed.
 

dur

Paladin. Disruptor. Since the 1970s
Yeah, you can also check the AS tab in Hire purchase GUI... if you have AS, many rogues to be had in heroics :(

Froggo is the only reason I spent $$$ after buying the base expansion with points.. he's good (with GH, etc) up to about L7; then it's a wait to 30.. or 21, when rogues can be bought with plat.
 

Mornyngstar

Well-known member
Yeah, you can also check the AS tab in Hire purchase GUI... if you have AS, many rogues to be had in heroics :(

Froggo is the only reason I spent $$$ after buying the base expansion with points. he's good (with GH, etc.) up to about L7; then it's a wait to 30. or 21, when rogues can be bought with plat.
There is also Darling at Lv 18,32 from Vecna.
 

dur

Paladin. Disruptor. Since the 1970s
I've already blown my DDO budget and the year's barely begun! lol...

*So Darling is the Wererat? I was wondering what it's levels were.. thanks :)
 

DYWYPI

Well-known member
All the older vendor purchasable Epic Rogue Hirelings have Search DCs lower than Search DC:55 (even if they use their Skills boost if they have one on their hotbar).

Note: Level 20 quests on Epic Elite have a minimum suspected Search DC of 59. The quest 'Spies in the House' has a suspected Search DC of 61 on Epic Elite.

Wasn't there someway to just make them disarm? I remember some mention of them going over to the box location even if they never spotted it.

Yes, the Rogue Hirelings still flat-out cheat; they don't even need to have adequate [Search] DC for "unrevealed" trap Control panels to be able to attempt to Disable them.

In other words they can fail [Search DC] to find the Control Panel, but still magically attempt to disable it; as if they had revealed it via a successful Search – even though it's invisible to the players.

If you want to "improve" them, then they should have to obey the same rules as the Characters, i.e. if they fail the Search check they cannot attempt to disarm any Control Panel – that hasn't yet been revealed.

Their actual Search DC values are mostly fine, as they are suitable Search DCs for: Epic Normal, up to Level 30, or Epic Hard at around Level 23. They just blatantly ignore the fact "unrevealed" control panels can exist, which pretty much makes a mockery of the Search rules with regards to Traps. :-/
 

Scrag

Well-known member
I don't like darling. She dies easy. I would have to know where the trap is, clear everything else out, summon her to me, have her do her thing, and then park her again.

It isnt a notable inconvenience, but I would rather just blitz through the trap(s) then wait on her to do her thing. The 30% exp is super super juicy, and I will definitely wait on a trapper to clear them in a party, or ask the party to wait while I trap.
 

Oliphant

Well-known member
One time I was starting The End of the Road and I said: AFK 15 minutes, reading these dossiers.
I chuckled at least.
 

dur

Paladin. Disruptor. Since the 1970s
I don't like darling. She dies easy. I would have to know where the trap is, clear everything else out, summon her to me, have her do her thing, and then park her again.

It isnt a notable inconvenience, but I would rather just blitz through the trap(s) then wait on her to do her thing. The 30% exp is super super juicy, and I will definitely wait on a trapper to clear them in a party, or ask the party to wait while I trap.
I what I have to do with "Legendary" Froggo.. good thing I can rez.. :p

Ditto the XP boost for disarm but, UGH! I'm learning his(?) quirks.. very frustrating but it's common to even the rogue hires
 

mbartol

Murder Hobo
The fire-trap room in the third dungeon of the Shan-To-Kor chain is pretty deadly if you're running it at level. Over-level it gets heinous, but that's the only low-level quest with truly deadly and unavoidable traps of which I am aware.
Repossession at Level 4 can wipe an unsuspecting party.
 
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