U60 Lammania Preview 1 - XP System Adjustments

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The Narc

Well-known member
Which does not change the spending at all for someone using 50% pots always. Thus your prior point is refuted.
Okay I see what you are saying, well now the difference is you will get less quests done during the time that pot runs which means less favor which means less free ddo points, maybe it will get to the point where you dont earn enough points in the time it takes for the potions to burn out and you have less pots being bought with free ddo points and you will now have to buy your potions with ddo points you are soending cold hard cash on, turning your cash into game revenue.

Whether you are already buying your points with cash or free points, it will be costing you more per pot now.

And if you truly are spending endless amounts of cash on pots, i personally thank you and i am sure many other community members thank you as well.
 

tolanj

Active member
Unless I am mis-interpreting this its a significant _buff_ to quest reruns, at least were conquest is easily achieved (i.e. a significant move of XP from a 1st time bonus to an 'always available' bonus in Conquest).

It therefore seems likely, for good or ill, to see a return to 'dailies' for epic levelling. It will also presumably reduce the incentive for players sitting at cap to TR to regain 1st time bonuses. Its a buff for players who sit at cap doing 'R10 dailies', at least were Conquest is easily achieved.

We all know how things go, so it would be sensible to include an uplift to Discreet/Devious/Insidious in these changes, even if explicitly temporary. Then if the more interesting changes you have indicated are reduced in priority stealth players still have *something* of significance.
 

Dandonk

Beater of Dead Horses
Unless I am mis-interpreting this its a significant _buff_ to quest reruns, at least were conquest is easily achieved (i.e. a significant move of XP from a 1st time bonus to an 'always available' bonus in Conquest).

It therefore seems likely, for good or ill, to see a return to 'dailies' for epic levelling. It will also presumably reduce the incentive for players sitting at cap to TR to regain 1st time bonuses. Its a buff for players who sit at cap doing 'R10 dailies', at least were Conquest is easily achieved.

Getting people away from running dailies was one of the best things to happen in a long time. Please let's not go back to running the same small number of quests once again.
 

mikarddo

Well-known member
Okay I see what you are saying, well now the difference is you will get less quests done during the time that pot runs which means less favor which means less free ddo points, maybe it will get to the point where you dont earn enough points in the time it takes for the potions to burn out and you have less pots being bought with free ddo points and you will now have to buy your potions with ddo points you are soending cold hard cash on, turning your cash into game revenue.

Whether you are already buying your points with cash or free points, it will be costing you more per pot now.

And if you truly are spending endless amounts of cash on pots, i personally thank you and i am sure many other community members thank you as well.

A fair point on fewer points from favor. No, I dont buy endless pots, but I know some players do.
 

Spook

Ghostly Troll
I cannot remember where, but I can definitely remember a dev statement at the time when Reaper was introduced that all % xp bonuses were meant to apply to rxp. But no idea if that was in Player Council, Llama-land, or old ddo forums.

Of course that may have been adjusted somewhat, so that currently it may be WAI that buddy bonuses and XP tomes don't -- but to me it still sounds more like a bug than WAI.
Its not a bug it was a simplification of the calculation (bravery bonus and streak baked into first time bonus rather than being calculated separately)
xp first time 120% +30% bravery + 50% Streak
rxp first time 200%

XP Tomes have never worked the assumption is that they will release reaper xp tomes at some point in the future
 

Putti

Well-known member
I think this is a good idea in theory, but there are a lot of quests where conquest is very difficult to get or downright impossible. Some quests you have to stand in place farming unending spawns to get the bonus. I think before all these quests are fixed then it's dangerous to implement a change like this. You risk making quests undesirable to run and they might never recover even after a potential fix.

I also don't think the bonus should be completely loaded into conquest. It should be spread out in the tiers.

You could accommodate the stealth aspect by adding the bonus to the "Discreet", "Devious" and "Insidious Cunning" bonuses, but make them dependent on no Dungeon Alert as well.

I also think you could encourage people to not zerg if you added more optionals and made the optionals worth doing.
Even if it's just simple "Kill X amount" ones like in ToEE (I personally like those).

In any case since this will massively increase the time it takes to get the same XP as you did before I think you should consider increasing the bonuses. As I said I think it's a good idea in theory since I'm not a fan of just running past everything and ignoring enemies, but I think you risk burn-out on most people if it's now suddenly going to take twice as long to get a past-life and you have to put in more effort for every quest at the same time.
 
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Just to confirm, how much are you lowering the cost of xp pots by? Or are you changing 6 hours to 9 hours and 3 to 4.5?
Or is this intended to encourage people to buy more potions to compensate for either:
a) Lower xp gains because zerging is still the optimal way to get past lives done
b) Lower xp gains because they bothered to get conquest
Either way the xp/minute will be noticably lowered, aka longer to get another boring past live from 1 to 30, aka more potions being desired/used.

So will those be just an "accidental" impact, or was this a thinly veiled way to slow down levelling to get a bit more whale milk?
Also, can you please explain how having a party split up as much as possible to kill more enemies actually lowers the server load? Far as I'm aware, 6 people running in different directions - quest allowing - is going to cause more impact with monsters.

Nevermind the many, many quests where you will NEVER get conquest. Look at invitation for dinner or amber temple... or shadow crypt... or tor... or litany... inferno.. friends in low places, etc. You're straight up taking a MASSIVE xp nerf there and you'll never recoup it; by the time you've gotten conquest you could've just run the quest again. Twice, in some cases. By the time you get conquest in invitation you could've run the entire chain.
 

Scrag

Well-known member
This is a horrible decision, especially for people new, newly returned, or casuals who have very few, if any past lives to drive them.

This MUST be considered. The only way this will work is, as mentioned above, massively boosting the cost value of exp pots, or, simply adding a significant more exp to the equation for conquest.

edit: After reading a lot more responses, yes, this will simply codify DA as a _requirement_. Why the hell would you bother trying to go for conquest unless you can maximize kills over time spent? DA is the BEST way to go for kills over time. Period. So you just made DA far more common, and you squashed group composition. I could see groups explicitly requiring massive aoe (dc insta-kill falls apart; it isnt efficient enough), and insanely tough + damaging "new tanks" that can handle reaper DA. Good job!
 
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Fisto Mk I

Well-known member
If you go through using 2 50% potions to hit level 30 at present to now using 3 50% potions, it increases spending by 50%.
If you run perma-boosted, it's not increase spending at all, but increase boring and time consumption, and can cause a desire to stop spending at all. Life time is the most valuable resource, the proposed changes will lead to the waste of this resource. This is an extremely stupid change.
 
If you run perma-boosted, it's not increase spending at all, but increase boring and time consumption, and can cause a desire to stop spending at all. Life time is the most valuable resource, the proposed changes will lead to the waste of this resource. This is an extremely stupid change.
I'm not sure you understand how that works. Generally a normal person doesn't drink 600000000000000000 sov pots and then pike in raids like that.
They'd drink, say, 3 per life. 1-30, 18 hours of questing, sure.
After that, they run other quests.

If they now need 4 potions, that increases potions used.

For someone who drank 6000000000000000000 sovs, they get less value per potion. But they, being an abnormal person, probably don't care and aren't relevant to discussions about value.
 

Xandrah

Angry Elf
So this'll mean spending more time in a quest going after conquest to get the same xp. Which means my Sov pot will tick down a ton more per quest. Worse XP/min, sov pot being burned more per quest, not a good feel.
To me that would put less value on any xp pot, unless I had a lucky roll on daily dice. That is all I am seeing.
 

Dom

Well-known member
Expecting players to get Conquest in every quest is a huge disconnect from how the game has been played. There are too many quests where Conquest isn't reasonable to get without significantly increasing the time to complete the quest. And increasing the time it takes to complete a quest isn't cool if we're netting the same XP from it. The time to complete a quest needs to be commensurate with the XP. If Conquest is going to double the quest completion time, then the XP reward needs to scale accordingly. You missed that with these changes.

Y'all need to clearly communicate to the players how Conquest numbers are going to get adjusted in quests. Right now there's too much fear, uncertainty and doubt by players that developers won't get this right. Because it feels half-baked. Requiring Conquest to maximize XP will just bring other shortcomings of quest design to the forefront, such as a lack of shrines.
To add to this, there are some quests where getting conquest isn’t attainable at all, just like how in some quests, ransack isn’t attainable. Basing XP off of something that isn’t always attainable (as well as the points mentioned above by Ying) is really not going to solve any issues, but instead bring out more issues and continue to make the levelling process harder for newer players
 

Cashery

Well-known member
We are doing some updates to the XP system to increase incentives for killing monsters, and to make it a little less confusing. This all ties into a series of changes to make running past large numbers of encounters a less desirable behavior because of what it does to our servers due to pathing costs.

Changes:

1. Bravery Bonus is being renamed Delving Bonus. (this is mostly so people coming back to the game don't still think they need to worry about streaks, which came up a bit when we tried to talk about this to our surprise....).​
2. The "First Time" bonus that appears per difficulty is being removed and its value is being absorbed into Conquest and the Delving bonus. It was redundant, a bit confusing and we need the numbers elsewhere.​
Details Below:​
First Time bonus Changes - These bonus are being absorbed by other bonus types.

DifficultyXP BonusIn New System
Solo, Casual, Normal, Hard20%Move to Conquest
Elite45%Move to Conquest
Reaper*95%Move to Conquest & new Bravery aka Delving tier

DELVING = BRAVERY BONUS

Increase Delving Bonus by adding a Reaper Tier


New Delving Bonus 50% on Reaper so...

Hard 50% Bonus

Elite 100% Bonus

Reaper 150% Bonus

Uses the same logic as bravery bonus did before meaning if you play on hard then elite you'll only get a 50% bonus for reaper, or if you JUST played on hard and then reaper the bonus would be 100%. Playing reaper from the get go would be 150%.

Conquest Updates - Conquest bonus now scales with difficulty some and is a larger bonus.

Note: We will be doing a pass to address certain dungeons that have usual configurations that make getting these bonuses perhaps more difficult than they should be. We are still working on the details but Castle Ravenloft and the Vault of Night Dragon Raid are some examples.

Normal Difficulty:
  • +10% Aggression bonus
  • +15% Onslaught bonus
  • +45% **Conquest** bonus
Hard Difficulty:
  • +15% Aggression bonus
  • +25% Onslaught bonus
  • +50% **Conquest** bonus
Elite Difficulty:
  • +25% Aggression bonus
  • +50% Onslaught bonus
  • +70% **Conquest** bonus
Reaper Difficulty:
  • +25% Aggression bonus
  • +50% Onslaught bonus
  • +70% **Conquest** bonus
This change is Net neutral except for a very slight boost in hard.

TOTAL BONUS COMPARISON:

NORMALoldnewHARDoldnewELITEoldnewReaperoldnew
conquest2545255025702570
1st time200200450950
Bravery005050100100100150
Ransack1515151515151515
Tome of Learning5050505050505050
Tamper1010101010101010
Observance88888888
Total128128178183253253303303

TOTAL BONUS COMPARISON REPEAT PLAYS: The increased conquest bonus does increase replay XP but a fresh quest is still X2-3 the bonuses, so this shouldn't really be a problem.

Normal oldNormal newHARDoldnewELITEoldnewReaperoldnew
conquest2545255025702570
1st time00000000
Bravery00000000
Ransack1515151515151515
Tome of Learning00000000
Tamper1010101010101010
Observance88888888
Total587858835810358103

I know this isn't a super exciting change because we're basically just trying to encourage most players to do what their already doing, but monsters are a major component of the game play in how time is spent, and our reward structure should reflect that so completely avoiding them doesn't seem as attractive and becomes a less common practice.​
Note On Stealth - It is its own subset of game play and one that doesn't actually hit our perf problems. We would like to eventually get to some "stealth" game play bonuses to offset the Conquest adjustments but we want to do stuff that isn't exclusive from killing monsters or about just about walking through the quest without engaging anything. We're thinking about Assassinate bonuses (not the enhancement per say but just killing a mob from behind before it aggros on you), never triggering dungeon alert or maybe we'll even introduce picking pockets (but I warn you most monsters are full of pocket lint with the occasional rubber ducky, or a ring of power, that thing is sooo cursed). These things won't make it into this pass though as we'd probably want to do a focused pass on stealth and fix a lot of other rough edges while were at it.​

Renaming Bravery to Delving means nothing... People still only are getting a first time bonus for running the quest the first time on the hardest difficulty. So saying the XP is getting placed elsewhere is false.

So I get 150% Reaper Bonus XP if I do a quest on R1?

Does the XP still get scaled higher for doing it on R10 or is that now gone?
 
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somenewnoob

Well-known member
You need to take a VERY SERIOUS LOOK at the kills required for conquest BEFORE THIS GOES LIVE. Some quests DO NOT EVEN HAVE A CONQUEST BONUS.

I just ran sharn 2 heroic, not zerging, not stealth, pretty much killed everything in my path from the quest start to finish.

No Refunds- 106 - no conquest
HOP - 60 no conquest
Blown - 85 no conquest
Reach - 67 no conquest.

These aren't even possible to get conquest unless the wiki is wrong. If you do not adjust the numbers down IN ALL QUESTS then this is plainly put a straight up xp nerf across the board.

I would urge everybody else to pay attention to your conquest bonus and provide some numbers.


So what are we doing about the quests that I mentioned that don't even have a conquest bonus and I'm sure there are many others, this just happened to be the first chain I ran after I heard this.

Will every quest without a conquest bonus have one?

Will the quests with conquest bonuses be scaled down to be achievable without "clearing" a dungeon? ie: Dunwater, Amber Temple, Ringleader, Shadow Crypt, etc etc.

Why isn't the simpler and more elegant solution to just massively buff the kill bonus xp in all quests across the board to incentivize killing more mobs? This would not be a xp nerf like the proposed change is, but a buff for us which would literally turn all our frowns upside down. This would be the correct way to do this unless your intention is just to nerf xp. (Which is what is happening, which is why 95% of us don't like it)
 

Grumpy

Well-known member
People calling it unfair are a small group of people that are paying to do it that way and just dont want to have to pay more either in money or time to accomplish that which they have accomplished time and time again.
Lamania has been up for less than 24 hours and there are a lot of people complaining about this on the forums, not a "small group" of people as you suggest. If I buy a 50% pot, and now have to spend 2-5 times longer in every quest to get the same exp then not only does this take the fun out of leveling, it also takes away any incentive that I have to buy store pots. If all the "whales" as people like to say stop buying pots from the store, how does that help the health of the game when the $$ stops rolling in?

I don't want to play the game if I have to go into every room and kill everything, and break everything and trap everything and find everything, and telling me that If i don't do these things, then I will suffer an EXP penalty, takes away my desire to play the game.
 

somenewnoob

Well-known member
Lamania has been up for less than 24 hours and there are a lot of people complaining about this on the forums, not a "small group" of people as you suggest. If I buy a 50% pot, and now have to spend 2-5 times longer in every quest to get the same exp then not only does this take the fun out of leveling, it also takes away any incentive that I have to buy store pots. If all the "whales" as people like to say stop buying pots from the store, how does that help the health of the game when the $$ stops rolling in?

I don't want to play the game if I have to go into every room and kill everything, and break everything and trap everything and find everything, and telling me that If i don't do these things, then I will suffer an EXP penalty, takes away my desire to play the game.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think that guy is satirizing a forum paladin. Probably best to just ignore going forward. He's definitely in the very very small minority.
 

TeacherSyncletica

New member
Not all builds are all about clearing a dungeon, but meeting an objective--the whole point of stealthy skills, soft skills such as Diplomacy, and attacks that can only affect a single enemy at a time.
Many DDO classes are of this.
This idea also forces sacrificing play time to time-consuming clearing.
And is such a change a good idea when in Hardcore League play?
I'm fond of game changes which support the bulk of the player base, but pushing players to be reckless to clear some dangerous dungeons for the sake of clearing them--and with little post-quest incentives to do so as I can see here, such as special gear--is weird.
This system benefits only 2nd and later lives since XP easily caps on a first life throughout that time, and when a player is most vulnerable to begin with in trying to clear a dungeon.
 

Grumpy

Well-known member
I dont understand why so many people think every quest should grant a conquest bonus, the devs have never promised or committed to having conquest in every quest.

Bring the revenue in from those that are spending to win, they will keep spending to keep their ego fed, its an easy cash cow for SSG.
If the first time XP bonus of a quest is being rolled into getting Conquest in the quest, and you can't get conquest then you lose out on that first time bonus. Or at least that is the way that I am reading it.

If these proposed changes go live, then I stop spending money for EXP pots and other things in the DDO store, as the value of them goes way way down, and not worth the money that I spend.
 
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