U62 Preview 1 Active Attacks Rebalance

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Lotoc

Well-known member
Could Exalted Smite get a 0/10/20% added as these changes are quite likely to take exalted smite from the best attack in KotC to one of the weaker ones.
Don't get me wrong I'd still push the button to maintain crusade on a t5 DC paladin but less utility minded players may end up not smiting at all.
 

droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
Only on melee attacks and only against evil creatures. I don't know how you build your toons but I don't graze on 2s so the extra to-hit is meaningless to me.

The to-hit applies to all targets, only the bonus damage is Evil-only

And at endgame, upper-tier content, you're often not "only miss on 1" like you are leveling up. Mob ACs are no longer non-trivial, and to-hit starts to matter again to your overall DPS.
 

Hammatimes

Well-known member
The to-hit applies to all targets, only the bonus damage is Evil-only

And at endgame, upper-tier content, you're often not "only miss on 1" like you are leveling up. Mob ACs are no longer non-trivial, and to-hit starts to matter again to your overall DPS.
I've recorded my gameplay to watch for grazes and fortification fails because I was considering swapping from Precision to rage+power attack, I was hitting just fine.

You can't even miss on a 2 with adrenaline, it goes directly to the critical confirmation and it's even harder to fail a confirmation on a 2 than it is to graze on a 2. You're not gaining anything by continuing this conversation
 
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Shear-buckler

Master of reactions
A huge buff to high reaper "twitch and burst" gameplay and fotw.

The AoE meta is also getting a huge buff.

Spamming active attacks will become mandatory. Builds will start to get cleave, great cleave and whirldwind and fill up entire hotbars with random active attacks that earlier were situational or had specific use cases. I guess it's time to get auto hotkey and make some macros. Spamming hotkey buttons for attacking is the worst possible direction to take the game in.

Combos like rapid slash -> sdk chain -> greater sdk chain -> whirlwind -> cleave -> great cleave will become the default gameplay.
 
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Zuldar

Well-known member
Question - Have you tried it out yet with an Adrenalin backed exalted smite? If so, what's your opinion of it after this change? Just wondering how significantly better BM is looking compared to ES.
Think Adrenaline + Slaughter will be very nice with this change.
 

Skjoldofr

Member
Shiradi Pin went from +5W on Live to +30% on Lamania. Edit: Shiradi Pin is +3W on Live.
Paladin Divine Sacrifice (checked ranged) is +20% and +5d6 at ranks 1, 2, and 3.
Exalted Smite does feel like it needs a little extra. non 19-20 Hunters End crits fell in a very similar damage range to the non 19-20 Hunters End crits on Divine Sacrifice. (i.e. +20% damage and +1 Crit Multiplier felt roughly the same as +2 crit multiplier on a much more bounded resource - smite charges). Pure paladin 20 with the DC +5 levels on smite still felt all right, but I'd like to see if feel more than all right.
Boulders Might is still listing +5W instead of the expected +50%.
 
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Rull

Well-known member
Example: I swing a short sword with Adrenaline Active and using Slaughter (W10 now 100% Damage Mod)

Take your base damage (weapon dice + enhancement + strength (or whatever) + misc damages, then multiple by melee power...lets say you end up with a hit for 250.

Slaughter's 100% brings me to 500.

Say you Crit (cause Adrenaline!) and your crit multiplier is mere X2, so now your at 1000, Adrenaline gives a 225% bonus you get 3250, say you double strike. Now your total is 6500. Should work like that.

-T
Thanks for the reply. I think Boulder's Might would overperform and (reluctantly) ask that you don't give it the full +50%.
The Slaughter in your example at least requires investment in Ravager. It makes builds much more interesting if they all have another way to make use of big adrenalines, but Boulder's Might in the same destiny would easily outshine them all. With a x5 base crit multiplier, 1.5*7 is still more than slaughter's 2*5 (not to mention that boulder's might is also a cleave and does more non-adrenalined damage all around).
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
I like the idea of making active attacks more relevant, but the way you're doing it has the potential for serious powercreep. Please don't take this out and then (over)nerf like you always do. If it is going to be a system to stay, go ahead.

But no release it, and then nerfing it to leave us in a worse situation than before. First test it intensively to be sure what you want to do, but don't release it out, decide you don't like it, overnerf, and increase the inequalities between builds again.

I remind you that multiplications have an exponential increase potential, especially if you are adding to it many large bonuses. You already had problems with critical damage for that. So, go ahead, but please test it first.
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
I like the idea of making active attacks more relevant, but the way you're doing it has the potential for serious powercreep. Please don't take this out and then (over)nerf like you always do. If it is going to be a system to stay, go ahead.

But no release it, and then nerfing it to leave us in a worse situation than before. First test it intensively to be sure what you want to do, but don't release it out, decide you don't like it, overnerf, and increase the inequalities between builds again.

I remind you that multiplications have an exponential increase potential, especially if you are adding to it many large bonuses. You already had problems with critical damage for that. So, go ahead, but please test it first.
Right. I agree with the stated goal to make more attacks worth using.

But who was asking for adrenaline to do 50% more damage than it already does? I believe the vast majority of players wanted the other epic strikes brought up to the same level so we would have options? No? :unsure:

The absurdity of even thinking of buffing the 12x cleave Lotus/Chains/Rapidslash combo boggles my mind...
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
Right. I agree with the stated goal to make more attacks worth using.

But who was asking for adrenaline to do 50% more damage than it already does? I believe the vast majority of players wanted the other epic strikes brought up to the same level so we would have options? No? :unsure:

The absurdity of even thinking of buffing the 12x cleave Lotus/Chains/Rapidslash combo boggles my mind...
That is precisely my problem. There are many minor attacks that are indeed in desperate need of improvement.

But we all know what will happen if the strongest attacks, which are already powerful in themselves, are multiplicatively improved. I put my hand in the fire that in a few weeks or months a nerf, if not an overnerf, will come. It has happened so many times in the past that it is already predictable.

What I want is for them to test those stronger attacks now, and adjust them now, while they are still open to suggestions from the community, so that they don't ruin them. When devs start making nerfs, many times they don't want to listen to the players. So better to adjust them now, with feedback from the community, than to release something that we all know they will judge OP and end up messing up.
 

Elminster

Sage of Shadowdale
What people here don't understand is that all these active attacks require you to actually get up to the monster and hit the target.This isn't a spell or ranged attack where you tab target or have a massive AoE and Blam-O your spell or whatever hits guaranteed and half the screen gets engulfed in nuclear spellfire.

As a melee you are moving like crazy in high speed (most melees I know slot GMoF mantle for the speed boost) trying not to get hit and at the same time attempt to hit that Reaper to knock it out of play.

Coupled with lag, (sorry to say this is just a fact of life playing any MMO) it's far more difficult to land these single-target attacks (adren does NOT work on everything in a cleave.. wish it did but it does not) and once it's wasted it's back on CD and now I'm face-to-face with a Doom Reaper, RIP.
 

Ying

5000+ hours played
Take your base damage (weapon dice + enhancement + strength (or whatever) + misc damages, then multiple by melee power...lets say you end up with a hit for 250.
If the below calculations are correct, this looks like a nerf for first life (hardcore) characters.


Level 5 Rogue: 24 DEX (20 starting +4 item) using a vanilla +2 Dagger (1d4):

Old Shiv 3W: 1d4 base + 3d4 + 2 weapon enchantment + 7 DEX bonus = 17 damage

New Shiv 30%: (1d4 + 2 + 7 DEX) * 1.30 = 14.950 damage



Level 5 Paladin: 24 STR (20 starting + 4 item) using a vanilla +2 Longsword (1d8):

Old Exalted Attack 3W: 1d8 base + 3d8 + 2 weapon enhancement + 7 STR bonus + 1 Holy Combatant = 28 damage

New Exalted Attack 30%: (1d8 + 2 + 7 STR + 1 Holy Combatant) * 1.30 = 18.85


Weapon procs are ignored in damage calculations since they are out of scope for this change. Also there's no meaningful melee/ranged power at low levels, even for uberpletionists, so MP/RP is ignored in calculations.
 

Elminster

Sage of Shadowdale
If the below calculations are correct, this looks like a nerf for first life (hardcore) characters.


Level 5 Rogue: 24 DEX (20 starting +4 item) using a vanilla +2 Dagger (1d4):

Old Shiv 3W: 1d4 base + 3d4 + 2 weapon enchantment + 7 DEX bonus = 17 damage

New Shiv 30%: (1d4 + 2 + 7 DEX) * 1.30 = 14.950 damage



Level 5 Paladin: 24 STR (20 starting + 4 item) using a vanilla +2 Longsword (1d8):

Old Exalted Attack 3W: 1d8 base + 3d8 + 2 weapon enhancement + 7 STR bonus + 1 Holy Combatant = 28 damage

New Exalted Attack 30%: (1d8 + 2 + 7 STR + 1 Holy Combatant) * 1.30 = 18.85


Weapon procs are ignored in damage calculations since they are out of scope for this change. Also there's no meaningful melee/ranged power at low levels, even for uberpletionists, so MP/RP is ignored in calculations.
They slowing down early leveling and boosting endgame. It's perfect actually, they tap on the breaks on the TR train but feel a far better sense of accomplishment and power as you hit cap.
 

Hammatimes

Well-known member
They slowing down early leveling and boosting endgame. It's perfect actually, they tap on the breaks on the TR train but feel a far better sense of accomplishment and power as you hit cap.
No, it should be a serious concern that this is going to make the entry for new players a good amount worse. New players are going to have low base damage and rely a lot on the weapon dice, levels 1-10 are a large portion of a new players experience especially as they make new toons before hitting 20.

The issue with the huge adrenaline/hunts end power creep is why I said that this bonus needs to be additive. Boulder's might going from the current 3.25 multiplier to a 3.75 multiplier is a lot more balanced than jumping up to a 4.875 multiplier along with all the other +W +mult attacks. This change would even more heavily push other epic strikes out of viability and create a gameplay where lag feels even more awful when it causes you to miss your adrenaline combos due to abilities not activating correctly
 

Elminster

Sage of Shadowdale
The issue with the huge adrenaline/hunts end power creep is why I said that this bonus needs to be additive. Boulder's might going from the current 3.25 multiplier to a 3.75 multiplier is a lot more balanced than jumping up to a 4.875 multiplier along with all the other +W +mult attacks. This change would even more heavily push other epic strikes out of viability and create a gameplay where lag feels even more awful when it causes you to miss your adrenaline combos due to abilities not activating correctly

Problem with this is: We ain't the Developers... You don't know what they (the Devs) are setting us up for in the future.

And let's face it, this is very unusual Dev behavior, so much so, I keep checking my calendar to see if April is rolling on by. I say we let them do their jobs and see what happens. I don't think this is going to be one of those "nerf later" moments, I do think it's going to be one of those future "... oh I see why they did that" moments.

Also, the problem with Adren is exactly what you posted. The thing ,especially with lag now, misses (and not misses as in a game mehanic but literally misses because the game thinks you're standing somewhere else) I'd rather those times that it does hit that it obliterates the target.
 

Shear-buckler

Master of reactions
Problem with this is: We ain't the Developers... You don't know what they (the Devs) are setting us up for in the future.

And let's face it, this is very unusual Dev behavior, so much so, I keep checking my calendar to see if April is rolling on by. I say we let them do their jobs and see what happens. I don't think this is going to be one of those "nerf later" moments, I do think it's going to be one of those future "... oh I see why they did that" moments.

Also, the problem with Adren is exactly what you posted. The thing ,especially with lag now, misses (and not misses as in a game mehanic but literally misses because the game thinks you're standing somewhere else) I'd rather those times that it does hit that it obliterates the target.
Here is what is going to happen: There will be some minor adjustments from the current proposal before it is released in a massively OP state. In a few months the devs will catch on and do a round of nerfs. People who don't care about balance, and only care about "obliterating", will cry and there will be bad times.
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
Here is what is going to happen: There will be some minor adjustments from the current proposal before it is released in a massively OP state. In a few months the devs will catch on and do a round of nerfs. People who don't care about balance, and only care about "obliterating", will cry and there will be bad times.
This. And what's more, historically these types of nerfs have been overnerfs. Overnerfs that last for years in the game, while op status probably won't last a few months. So... yourselves.
 

Elminster

Sage of Shadowdale
This. And what's more, historically these types of nerfs have been overnerfs. Overnerfs that last for years in the game, while op status probably won't last a few months. So... yourselves.

Listen, this ain't my first rodeo. I know the SOP for developers and changes.

But, I don't know what it is.. call it a gut feeling,I think this time we should just let the Dev's take all of this into their hands.

I feel like after reading all this that there is something looming in the horizon that'll make all of this logical.

Remember this is the first round of the balance cannons in what is sure to be a volley after volley of re-balancing changes. Wait and see before making value judgements.
 

Darksteel

Well-known member
Essentially, we are changing all attacks that have a +W component as part of their attack to use a percentage increase in their damage, following this scale:

W ScalarPercentage Boost
+1W+10%
+2W+20%
+3W+30%
+4W+40%
+5W+50%
......
+10W+100%

Pretty linear!

This means if you had, for example, an attack that had +3[W], that attack will now deal +30% damage instead.

The goal is to make active attacks more worthwhile across the entire level range. The big benefit of percentage boosts is that an active attack dealing 50% more damage at level 10 is the same level of efficacy as one dealing +50% at level 30, whereas +5[W] means a LOT more at level 10 then it does at level 30. This standardization will make attacks easier to balance as they'll be worth the same percentage bonus dps no matter what level you are, what dice your weapon has, what bonus damage you have, and what [W] score your weapon is.

This overhaul also allows us to rebalance a variety of active attacks to spruce them up a bit. Therefore:
  • Attacks that increased their [W] scale or other bonuses in a nonlinear or otherwise unusual fashion have been adjusted to be linear. This includes attacks that started at 1[W] and never increased beyond that across their ranks.
    • Example: Wracking Strike/Shot in the Mechanic tree now deals +10/20/30% damage instead of the +10/10/10% it would have been
  • Attacks that used to have a lesser scale for their ranged versions have been adjusted to match their melee counterparts.
    • Example: Caustic Shot in Battle Engineer now deals +10/20/30% damage, matching its melee version, instead of +5/10/15% had it matched its original [W] scalar
  • Attacks that used to secretly scale with [W] but never told you they did so have been tracked down and their tooltips have been adjusted
    • Example: Supreme Cleave was secretly dealing +0/1/2[W], and now deals +10/20/30% damage
  • Attacks that used to deal in .5[W] scales have been rounded to deal with whole percentages. We're going to try to keep things on multiples of 10% if at all possible.
    • Example: The Fists of Light feat used to deal +.5[W] damage, it now deals +10% damage (rounding up what would have been 5% to 10%)
Finally, here's a FAQ:
  • Question: What about things like Vorpal on weapons?
    • Answer: That will continue to boost the base weapon dice of your weapon. Effects that adjust [W] will remain as-is.
  • Question: What about things like Combat Archery?
    • Answer: That is another thing that boosts the base [W] of your weapons, and is therefore unchanged.
  • Question: What about things that boost overall damage, like Relentless Fury?
    • Answer: That will continue to boost overall damage as before. The only thing that is changing here is the part of an active attack that boosts the effective [W] score of your weapon for that attack. Everything else is not changing.
  • Question: Does this boost sneak attack damage?
    • Answer: No, this only affects the attack itself, and does not adjust additional on-hit effects or Sneak Attack (which were not boosted by W changes before)
  • Question: Does the new boost multiply with melee or ranged power?
    • Answer: Melee and Ranged Power will continue to work as they did before, multiplying your melee or ranged damage respectively.
These changes are really good, and ravager tree has finally become useful (adrenaline + slaughter is so much fun now!!). Thank you Torc for keeping melees relevant, still long way to go!!
 
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