U62 Preview 2 Balance Refresh

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LurkingVeteran

Well-known member
Also, setting every imbue to D8 with 75% spell power by default sounds needlessly complicated as D6 at 100% and D8 at 75% are very close. Why not standardize on D6 100% and allow a few exceptions (like AA) that are D8 100% because they are restricted to (slow) bows. This was close to how it was before in terms of both DPS and mechanics, and it was also less complicated than messing with % scaling.
 

Kitty2Meow

Active member
Torc,
D8 with 75% Spell power is a bit too stiff, would it be possible to make it to 80% instead?

Also, every enhancement in Fighter Kensei T5 only costs 1AP (1/1); like Kensei: Weapson Master 1AP gets you +3 to-hit and damage plus 25% Max HP bonus. While the Bard Swashbuckler T5 Second Skin is 3AP (3/3) to get the 20% Max HP bonus, would it be possible to lower it to 2AP (1/1)?
In addition, would you also lower the T5 Exploit Weakness from 2AP (1/1) to 1AP (1/1) as well?

Essentially, would suggest to make any T5 enhancement (across all trees) that currently cost,
3AP (3/3) to 2AP (1/1), or
2AP (1/1) to 1AP (1/1)

For all the balance refreshes, something gets taken away, should also give something back on the other ends.
 
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Shear-buckler

Well-known member
If you saw the interview the question that provoked that response was "why you nerfin' imbues??"

So, it was clearly that some builds that utilized imbues was destroying content that shouldn't have been so easily destroyed.

Guys I'm telling you... they have access to a metric ton of meta data on us players. How we play, what we play, how long it takes us to finish an R10 XYZ quest or raid or whatever.

They don't need to go through "every build" because they just need to know how the current resulting play is by looking at every quest or instance done and flag for outliers such as: done too fast solo, waaay too much damage per second, too much AoE damage.. heck... too fast movement in relation to the number of "swings/attacks" made by all the monsters inside the quest versus non-calculated "miss".

They do not track data like that.

The only reason there is not a greater outrage about this is because people are not playing imbue focused builds.

Here is a highly optimized DPS focused EK crushing R8 solo:

It's the most imbue focused build I can find posted and what can we see? Yes, he is using adrenaline which is getting a huge buff and does not scale imbues and he is picking up a grand total of 7 imbue dice outside of EK when about 25-30 is available. So not even the most imbue focused build is focusing on imbues. It's because you are far better of stacking MP and main stat to scale damage with the meta active attacks, to-hit, DCs and debuff scaling. What's ironic is that the non-imbue part of the build is getting huge buffs while the imbue part is getting nerfed, the net result will likely be that this build becomes stronger.

Here is another highly optimized build that is imbue-adjacent:

18 arti melee build. Great potential for imbue damage. If imbues was truly overwhelming the meta one would expect that build to use imbues, no? Well it does not. It's leaving all that imbue damage on the table to instead spec into VKF. The exact opposite you would expect from a meta that is overwhelmed by imbues.
 
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I dont Like gimps

Well-known member
They do not track data like that.

The only reason there is not a greater outrage about this is because people are not playing imbue focused builds.

Here is a highly optimized DPS focused EK crushing R8 solo:

It's the most imbue focused build I can find posted and what can we see? Yes, he is using adrenaline which is getting a huge buff and does not scale imbues and he is picking up a grand total of 7 imbue dice outside of EK when about 25-30 is available. So not even the most imbue focused build is focusing on imbues. It's because you are far better of stacking MP and main stat to scale damage with the meta active attacks, to-hit, DCs and debuff scaling.
there are several +-40 Imbue dice builds
 

Lotoc

Well-known member
there are several +-40 Imbue dice builds
and they're pretty much all inquisitive builds, which aren't getting nerfed nearly as much because they have a ranged power imbue that's a d10 and largely it's scaling the shiradi mantle with extra damage.
Time to buff every melee/ranged imbue up to a d10 then reduce the scaling to 100% so they're all mostly the same as they were.
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
there are several +-40 Imbue dice builds

Sure. 40 is the higher bound though, more than that comes with very high opportunity costs. 1200 spell power is also a high-end figure.

Assume no misses and TWF 100 attacks per minute, 100% offhand chance, 100% DS, 65% offhand-DS. That adds up to 100+100+100+65=365 imbue hits per minute, or 6,08 per second.
Imbue damage is 40*4.5*(1+1200/100)=2340 dmg
Imbue damage per second is 6,08*2340=14230 DPS.

A "physical" build with 200 damage, 400 MP and 17-18x4 & crit 19-20x6 will do (200*(1+400/100)*16+200*(1+400/100)*2*4+200*(1+400/100)*2*6)/20=36000/20=1800 average dmg and 1800*6.08=10940 DPS.

At this surface level analysis imbues looks great, and that's why I am convinced that the devs did basically just that.

The problem is that when you look at the non-imbue build you have to look deeper. Sneak attack, seeker, adrenaline, active attacks, debuffs etc adds up and you turn that low number into far higher numbers, with an extreme haste boosted example of 100k DPS existing, while also getting far better to-hit and tactic DCs.
 
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Lotoc

Well-known member
Not a surprise if inquis builds and their overall higher imbue dice potential from being the only universal imbue tree ended up becoming the balancing point for all imbues, hell we kind of predicted this during the imbue pass.
Doesn't help how Shiradi mantle got overhauled to scale with imbue dice and how ranged weapons can exceed 100% doubleshot, doubling down on the disproportionate potential for ranged imbues (before anybody chimes in with dual shootings DS penalty, single crossbow inquis functions and outscales dual shooter and picks up just as many dice.)

If we really are going to balance these imbues around ranged could Eldritch Knight get "+25% spellpower scaling on your imbues for 30 seconds after an eldritch strike", Vile Chemist get an equivalent after Contaminated Strike, Blightcaster get +25% scaling in wolf forms etc.?
That or give imbues +25% spellpower scaling with a melee weapon equipped.
 

I dont Like gimps

Well-known member
Sure. 40 is the higher bound though, more than that comes with very high opportunity costs. 1200 spell power is also a high-end figure.

Assume no misses and TWF 100 attacks per minute, 100% offhand chance, 100% DS, 65% offhand-DS. That adds up to 100+100+100+65=365 imbue hits per minute, or 6,08 per second.
Imbue damage is 40*4.5*(1+1200/100)=2340 dmg
Imbue damage per second is 6,08*2340=14230 DPS.

A "physical" build with 400 damage, 400 MP and 17-18x4 & crit 19-20x6 will do (400*(1+400/400)*16+400*(1+400/400)*2*4+400*(1+400/400)*2*6)/20=28800/20=1440 average dmg and 1440*6.08=8760 DPS.

At this surface level analysis imbues looks great, and that's why I am convinced that the devs did basically just that.

The problem is that when you look at the non-imbue build you have to look deeper. Sneak attack, seeker, adrenaline, active attacks, debuffs etc adds up and you turn that low number into far higher numbers, with an extreme haste boosted example of 100k DPS existing, while also getting far better to-hit and tactic DCs.
I never said that imbue builds are higher than physical ones I was simply stating that there are several 40 ish imbue dices that dont completely dump their physical prowess

I dont see no imbue build having 15k fronts (imbue part dmg) in r1 raids lol
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
I never said that imbue builds are higher than physical ones I was simply stating that there are several 40 ish imbue dices that dont completely dump their physical prowess

I dont see no imbue build having 15k fronts (imbue part dmg) in r1 raids lol
Sure. I just used your post as a starting point for a point about the nerf in general, not to argue against you.

Altough if you have 40 imbue dice and 1k+ spellpower as a melee you have dumped your physical prowess to a very large degree.
 

somenewnoob

Well-known member
For anybody suggesting that they have all this data, and carefully analyze it and crunch the numbers before they make a change...........let's all take a moment to remember that they didn't even know a lot of quests didnt have a conquest bonus when they floated out the xp changes.

This isn't our first rodeo.

The imbue change is a ham fisted broad nerf that doesn't solve any existing problem.
 

Fhrek

One Badge of Honor achieved
They don't need to go through "every build" because they just need to know how the current resulting play is by looking at every quest or instance done and flag for outliers such as: done too fast solo, waaay too much damage per second, too much AoE damage.. heck... too fast movement in relation to the number of "swings/attacks" made by all the monsters inside the quest versus non-calculated "miss".
The end is near... agreeing with @Elminster ... what have I become?
 

Fhrek

One Badge of Honor achieved
Any data they have to support this change is
Their data... not agreeing that is right.. I'm agreeing that they are seem something and are acting on it. Like they did with the DA/Exp changes. We can argue and try to revert some the changes they are planning, but... we know how they use "the data".
 

somenewnoob

Well-known member
Their data... not agreeing that is right.. I'm agreeing that they are seem something and are acting on it. Like they did with the DA/Exp changes. We can argue and try to revert some the changes they are planning, but... we know how they use "the data".

Perhaps if they would provide some JUSTIFICATION for their nerf, it might make it easier for the players to swallow. Some math, a nice spreadsheet like they had for the W changes, some reasoning, an example of how EK imbue dice are OP and just blowing things away.

Instead we get a vague "we see stuff".

Keep in mind with nerfs, if we continue to lay down and let them nerf things, you are an update away from a build you play or like being nerfed.
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
Their data... not agreeing that is right.. I'm agreeing that they are seem something and are acting on it. Like they did with the DA/Exp changes. We can argue and try to revert some the changes they are planning, but... we know how they use "the data".

Well they told us why they made the nerf, spellpower imbue builds are "overwhelming the meta".
 

somenewnoob

Well-known member
Well they told us why they made the nerf, spellpower imbue builds are "overwhelming the meta".

Which is vague. (To put it a polite way)

The conspiracy theorist in me says this points to a new imbue tree in the store coming soon. They tend to nerf things broadly when its time to sell the new shiney.
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
Which is vague. (To put it a polite way)

The conspiracy theorist in me says this points to a new imbue tree in the store coming soon. They tend to nerf things broadly when its time to sell the new shiney.

Yes it's vague indeed. It can mean anything.

Personally I think they have just made a too simplistic DPS calculation that makes imbues appear stronger than they really are compared to "physical".
 
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