U62 Preview 2 Balance Refresh

[ACJ97F]

Ok, without pointing out everything in the game that wasn't broken before they "updated" it, and the staggering list of things that have been
broken for years and fluffed-off, there's basic stuff they can adjust for class QOL.

Monk finishers get skipped alot, removing button-mashing and putting them on a universal cooldown, would be a reasonable change.

Cleric turn undead still uses an outdated system, most everything else is a save DC. Converting it over to match other skills and making the
bonuses +DC (etc) and cooldown reduction, would update it to current mechanics. Effectively making it an "Undead-only" EIN.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

A "physical" build with 400 damage, 400 MP and 17-18x4 & crit 19-20x6 will do (400*(1+400/400)*16+400*(1+400/400)*2*4+400*(1+400/400)*2*6)/20=28800/20=1440 average dmg and 1440*6.08=8760 DPS.

A few issues here. TWF builds are typically only going to have ~200 base and 16-20x4. Also, you are canceling out your melee power with the formula "(1+400/400)". It should be (1+400/100) instead.

So we would have:
200*5MP*15 hits*6.08 attacks = 91200
200*5*3*4*6.08 = 72960
200*5*2*6*6.08 = 72960
Total (91200+72960+72960)/20 = 11856 dps

At this surface level analysis imbues looks great, and that's why I am convinced that the devs did basically just that.

The problem is that when you look at the non-imbue build you have to look deeper. Sneak attack, seeker, adrenaline, active attacks, debuffs etc adds up and you turn that low number into far higher numbers, with an extreme haste boosted example of 100k DPS existing, while also getting far better to-hit and tactic DCs.

Typically imbue builds can maintain most base damage and sneak attack dice as well and only need to make major melee power sacrifices.

So the imbue build could easily also be 190 base +200 melee power, which adds ~6757 dps to the imbue build.

So calculating everything, assuming 15 SA dice +30

Imbue build:
14230 imbue dps
6757 base damage dps
190*3MP*2DS*4.2 multi*3.25/8 sec cd = 1945 adrenaline dps
82.5*3*1.5*6.08 = 2257 dps sneak attack dps
Total: 25189 dps

Physical only build:
11856 base damage dps
200*5*2*4.2*3.25/8 = 3412 adrenaline dps
82.5*5*1.5*6.08 = 3762 dps
Total: 19030 dps


Even after the 25% nerf the imbue build will still be doing more dps (outside of r10). Of course, its just an example... physical damage builds can also add some imbue dice... and then there's razorclaw...

IMO the nerf is somewhat warranted, but only in comparison to typical or "normal" dps builds. The meta builds that aren't also getting nerfed is what makes the change seem strange in isolation.

 

[Shear-buckler]

A few issues here. TWF builds are typically only going to have ~200 base and 16-20x4. Also, you are canceling out your melee power with the formula "(1+400/400)". It should be (1+400/100) instead.

So we would have:
200*5MP*15 hits*6.08 attacks = 91200
200*5*3*4*6.08 = 72960
200*5*2*6*6.08 = 72960
Total (91200+72960+72960)/20 = 11856 dps

Typically imbue builds can maintain most base damage and sneak attack dice as well and only need to make major melee power sacrifices.

So the imbue build could easily also be 190 base +200 melee power, which adds ~6757 dps to the imbue build.

So calculating everything, assuming 15 SA dice +30

Imbue build:
14230 imbue dps
6757 base damage dps
190*3MP*2DS*4.2 multi*3.25/8 sec cd = 1945 adrenaline dps
82.5*3*1.5*6.08 = 2257 dps sneak attack dps
Total: 25189 dps

Physical only build:
11856 base damage dps
200*5*2*4.2*3.25/8 = 3412 adrenaline dps
82.5*5*1.5*6.08 = 3762 dps
Total: 19030 dps


Even after the 25% nerf the imbue build will still be doing more dps (outside of r10). Of course, its just an example... physical damage builds can also add some imbue dice... and then there's razorclaw...

IMO the nerf is somewhat warranted, but only in comparison to typical or "normal" dps builds. The meta builds that aren't also getting nerfed is what makes the change seem strange in isolation.

Thank you for the corrected typo.

For 40 imbue dice and 1200 spellpower you will have to make significant trade-offs in set item and filigrees not to mention build options like destinies and race/classes/enhancements. It wont be just some melee power.

Still, the point is the same. Imbue looks great in those basic calculations but just something like adrenaline makes them far too incomplete.

It was a different story back in the day when we made these sort of calcs for straight up boss beatdowns and there were far fewer mechanics at play.

 

[Spook]

im confused how is the imbue build getting to 100 doublestrike, 100% offhand attacks, hitting the same sneak attack numbers while using a d6 or better weapon?

That means they spent destiny points in shadowdancer+fury+primal+draconic+macrotech

 

[Zaszgul]

Also, setting every imbue to D8 with 75% spell power by default sounds needlessly complicated as D6 at 100% and D8 at 75% are very close.

But that doesn't accomplish the meta-goal of making this game as opaque/complex as possible.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

Still, the point is the same. Imbue looks great in those basic calculations but just something like adrenaline makes them far too incomplete.

It was a different story back in the day when we made these sort of calcs for straight up boss beatdowns and there were far fewer mechanics at play.

I agree. The actual ingame strength of front loaded burst (especially AOE) is vastly underrepresented in dps calcs.

 

[Shear-buckler]

im confused how is the imbue build getting to 100 doublestrike, 100% offhand attacks, hitting the same sneak attack numbers while using a d6 or better weapon?

That means they spent destiny points in shadowdancer+fury+primal+draconic+macrotech

Oh yeah, the calc is a complete fabrication to make the strongest possible case for the OPness of imbues. 40 imbue dice alone requires essentially all your filigrees, destinies and a 3 piece set. 1200 spellpower on top of that without sacrificing any other capabilities is a tall order.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

Oh yeah, the calc is a complete fabrication to make the strongest possible case for the OPness of imbues. 40 imbue dice alone requires essentially all your filigrees, destinies and a 3 piece set. 1200 spellpower on top of that without sacrificing any other capabilities is a tall order.

Right, maxing imbue is not really the same as maximizing dps. Max dps imbue builds would likely sacrifice a few dice for the aforementioned stats and end up around 30-35 dice instead.

 

[Elminster]

A few issues here. TWF builds are typically only going to have ~200 base and 16-20x4. Also, you are canceling out your melee power with the formula "(1+400/400)". It should be (1+400/100) instead.

So we would have:
200*5MP*15 hits*6.08 attacks = 91200
200*5*3*4*6.08 = 72960
200*5*2*6*6.08 = 72960
Total (91200+72960+72960)/20 = 11856 dps

Typically imbue builds can maintain most base damage and sneak attack dice as well and only need to make major melee power sacrifices.

So the imbue build could easily also be 190 base +200 melee power, which adds ~6757 dps to the imbue build.

So calculating everything, assuming 15 SA dice +30

Imbue build:
14230 imbue dps
6757 base damage dps
190*3MP*2DS*4.2 multi*3.25/8 sec cd = 1945 adrenaline dps
82.5*3*1.5*6.08 = 2257 dps sneak attack dps
Total: 25189 dps

Physical only build:
11856 base damage dps
200*5*2*4.2*3.25/8 = 3412 adrenaline dps
82.5*5*1.5*6.08 = 3762 dps
Total: 19030 dps


Even after the 25% nerf the imbue build will still be doing more dps (outside of r10). Of course, its just an example... physical damage builds can also add some imbue dice... and then there's razorclaw...

IMO the nerf is somewhat warranted, but only in comparison to typical or "normal" dps builds. The meta builds that aren't also getting nerfed is what makes the change seem strange in isolation.

One has to take into account time/money investment to get said builds. Imbues are relatively investment lite while other builds of similar calibre will take more PL/Gear investment.

 

[Spook]

My theory is that imbues got a nerf because they were more dps than stick builds.

 

[Shear-buckler]

One has to take into account time/money investment to get said builds. Imbues are relatively investment lite while other builds of similar calibre will take more PL/Gear investment.

Like what?

 

[PraetorPlato]

These DPS values are very incorrect—optimized DPS builds are hovering around 50k DPS with just an action boost on (and no debuffs), and you can do *substantially* better than that. I can get a 16-second kobold no debuff equivalent on my low-life, not-fully-optimized, off-meta THF dps (30k+ DPS).

Good EK imbue builds can absolutely hit 40 imbue dice, 1300+ SP. On a razor claw, that's a *lot* of damage before you start doing funny things like hitting mass hold-acid well-hit whatever's left a few times to apply Xy'zzy debuff-greater ruin intensified.

Ruin intensified should be adding ~8k DPS alone to the above calculations, scaling off the same debuffs as most of your damage.

 

[Shear-buckler]

These DPS values are very incorrect—optimized DPS builds are hovering around 50k DPS with just an action boost on (and no debuffs), and you can do *substantially* better than that. I can get a 16-second no debuff equivalent on my low-life, not-fully-optimized, off-meta THF dps (30k+ DPS).

Good EK imbue builds can absolutely hit 40 imbue dice, 1300+ SP. On a razor claw, that's a *lot* of damage before you start doing funny things like hitting mass hold-acid well-hit whatever's left a few times to apply Xy'zzy debuff-greater ruin intensified.

Ruin intensified should be adding ~8k DPS alone to the above calculations, scaling off the same debuffs as most of your damage.

Yeah that's exactly my point. The devs have done a low resolution DPS calc and concluded that spellpower imbue builds must be overwhelming the meta.

 

[PraetorPlato]

...I'm saying that you're missing a ton of imbue DPS, because you're missing that they're 9th level casters with a full SP bar with choice of t5 destiny and late epic feats, *and* that you're doing the math wrong on what is realistically achievable for a EK. EK gets more, not less, SP than a pure nuker.

 

[Lotoc]

Imbue builds haven't even had the chance to be meta raid dps because the issue of them not getting threat reduction that Severlin himself admitted to earlier this year still hasn't been patched.
People who build top end dps builds are reluctant to even touch imbues because of the threat issues.

 

[PraetorPlato]

yeah, that's the actual issue with imbues. This fix is good IMO, but it's kind of irrelevant until they deal with that.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

Thanks for listening to the Cleave/Great Cleave feedback. Most impressive. ??

In terms of bug fixes there are still a couple of things not working in the Ravager tree.

Not expecting those to be fixed here but maybe ones to note for U62.

Torc has already done a great job in fixing other Ravager issues. ???

 

[Lotoc]

yeah, that's the actual issue with imbues. This fix is good IMO, but it's kind of irrelevant until they deal with that.

That any melee build not using imbues can do infinitely more damage without pulling aggro (seriously treachery -50% filigree, -%20 essence of dark diversion, -30% from shadowdancer and it's all additive for 100%)
Pulling aggro in a raid simply messes things up way too much and raids are like the main content where enemies have more HP than the amount of threat generated by an intimidate.
Imbues have clearly been designed as a consistent sustained dps option vs crits and such and that it can't be used in content where that is actually the priority is absurd.

 

[Shear-buckler]

...I'm saying that you're missing a ton of imbue DPS, because you're missing that they're 9th level casters with a full SP bar with choice of t5 destiny and late epic feats, *and* that you're doing the math wrong on what is realistically achievable for a EK. EK gets more, not less, SP than a pure nuker.

I am missing a ton of non-imbue DPS too, far more infact.

You certainly can't go 50-70% of a non-imbue in "physical dps", full imbue scaling AND casting and just add it all together for one build.

 

[CBDunk]

At a guess, I suspect when they say 'overwhelming the meta' they may mean that they are seeing a lot of imbue builds compared to other designs right now.

Unfortunately, that DOESN'T mean imbue builds are stronger. Rather, they are still the shiny (relatively) 'new' thing that people are trying out every possible combination of to test the limits.

The same logic would apply to Alchemist nukers... data shows they aren't played very often. That might be taken as an indication that they are too weak and need to be buffed. Hence the recent 'balance' changes.

Basically, what does 'meta' mean? What builds are most powerful? Or what builds are most played?