U62 Preview 2 Balance Refresh

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Lazuli

Well-known member
If you are standardising the damage on imbues should you not remove the restrictions also? Eg why should WS/WP imbue only work on favored weapons if it does the same damage as BE that works on everything?
I agree. That's why I said before that the imbues should not be standardized for the simple reason that each one serves classes with different needs, strengths and weaknesses. But if they standardize them, they should remove their restrictions, and they should also give something extra to the classes that had them as their main source of damage.

I actually knew last year that the new system would end in a nerf of classes that don't need a nerf *sigh*
 

Fleming

Well-known member
I think Child of the Mountain could be decreased to 1 AP per enhancement, there are a lot of easier and cheaper sources of quality HP so I don't think it would disturb the meta at all. It feels bad to spend 6 AP on it when it's available in a universal tree for 2.

Shield Mastery should also be decoupled from Dwarven Armor Mastery, Humans don't have the pre-req and increasing MDB is useless when you have a Tower Shield anyways

Dwarf Tree

I agree with Hammatimes that 6AP is a lot to spend for 5% Quality HP. Could this be lowered to 1AP per rank? This means its still more AP that the Falconry or the 5% Sacred from Aasimar (Protector) but those are obviously paid options (and CotM gains 1/2/3 Fort saves, meh but flavorful). Or alternatively lower the cost to 1AP per rank and reduce the ranks to two (losing the Fort saves if necessary). Or just have one rank costing 2AP?

Shield mastery. Maybe decouple it from Dwarven Armor mastery, sure why not as there's no restriction on Human/PDK. Personally I would like the cost of all Shield mastery options (across the board) lowered to 1AP per rank. You are already giving up most of your DPS by having a shield, even on a Vanguard (due to the cool down) so why does it need 6AP? But I suspect no-one is going to want to spend the time doing this, even if they agree its a valid point (which they may well not).
 

Neain

Well-known member
If you like these kinds of changes and would like to see more of them, please let us know! And if you have your own suggestions as to what should be adjusted, please feel free to let us know about those as well!

I enjoyed the first one and a bunch of the things in this one I enjoy as well, but then you go and make a fairly large change (-25% imbue damage???). I don't think I'm alone in saying that I thought these changes were all supposed to be small?
If the change was to 90%, and then the next one was down to 80% because it wasn't changing things quite as much as desired, you wouldn't be getting quite as much blowback as the nerf it from orbit main strat. We still wouldn't be happy as imbues already weren't seen as an end-game build, and the few that were weren't top DPS. But at least it would feel more about adjusting their 'oversaturation of the meta' that it was claimed this was for.

You made a playstyle that we as a player base really enjoyed, please don't murder it.
 

Elminster

Former Pollster, Beloved by the DDO Forums.
I enjoyed the first one and a bunch of the things in this one I enjoy as well, but then you go and make a fairly large change (-25% imbue damage???). I don't think I'm alone in saying that I thought these changes were all supposed to be small?
If the change was to 90%, and then the next one was down to 80% because it wasn't changing things quite as much as desired, you wouldn't be getting quite as much blowback as the nerf it from orbit main strat. We still wouldn't be happy as imbues already weren't seen as an end-game build, and the few that were weren't top DPS. But at least it would feel more about adjusting their 'oversaturation of the meta' that it was claimed this was for.

You made a playstyle that we as a player base really enjoyed, please don't murder it.
They are trying to tap on the brakes for heroics and in exchange buff at cap.(because the power and meta naturally changes at cap through x-packs and level increases).

It makes sense (in terms of a business perspective) so they are going to go ahead and do it.

My recommendation is to do something more creative and make Alts actually desirable. One idea is to make it so you can use your alt on the same account as a hireling for your main including all it's gear and build setup etc.
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
They are trying to tap on the brakes for heroics and in exchange buff at cap.(because the power and meta naturally changes at cap through x-packs and level increases).

It makes sense (in terms of a business perspective) so they are going to go ahead and do it.

My recommendation is to do something more creative and make Alts actually desirable. One idea is to make it so you can use your alt on the same account as a hireling for your main including all it's gear and build setup etc.

That imbues are overperforming in heroics is something that you came up with yourself a few pages back and now just decided to run with as a fact. There is zero evidence for it. The reality is that there are few imbue dice available in heroics. Filigrees, level 28/30 feats, legendary item set and EDs are where you get a significant part of your imbues from.
 
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Elminster

Former Pollster, Beloved by the DDO Forums.
That imbues are overperforming in heroics is something that you came up with yourself a few pages back and now just decided to run with as a fact. There is zero evidence for it. The reality is that there are few imbue dice available in heroics. Filigrees, level 28/30 feats, legendary item set and EDs are where you get a significant part of your imbues from.
And the imbues you're talking about affects mostly melees and melees are getting a buff this update. So they're moving some dps from column A to column B and overall net change is zero. So, it's balanced and fine.
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
And the imbues you're talking about affects mostly melees and melees are getting a buff this update. So they're moving some dps from column A to column B and overall net change is zero. So, it's balanced and fine.

No. Melee builds that focus on spellpower imbues are not getting a net zero change. They are getting a direct nerf from the imbue change and a proxy nerf from the active attack change. They are removing DPS from column A and getting a far lower bump in DPS in column B compared to other melee builds. It's not balanced. It's not fine.
 

Fleming

Well-known member
My recommendation is to do something more creative and make Alts actually desirable. One idea is to make it so you can use your alt on the same account as a hireling for your main including all it's gear and build setup etc.

They need to fix hirelings first, not make more of them!

I would prefer shared Reaper XP.
 

Sholekar

Well-known member
I agree. That's why I said before that the imbues should not be standardized for the simple reason that each one serves classes with different needs, strengths and weaknesses. But if they standardize them, they should remove their restrictions, and they should also give something extra to the classes that had them as their main source of damage.

I actually knew last year that the new system would end in a nerf of classes that don't need a nerf *sigh*
Agree. The biggest issue with standardizing imbues is AA is bow specific whereas twf/inquis builds have a built in guarunteed double attack with faster attack rates. It's apples and oranges.
 

Hammatimes

Well-known member
Shield mastery. Maybe decouple it from Dwarven Armor mastery, sure why not as there's no restriction on Human/PDK. Personally I would like the cost of all Shield mastery options (across the board) lowered to 1AP per rank. You are already giving up most of your DPS by having a shield, even on a Vanguard (due to the cool down) so why does it need 6AP? But I suspect no-one is going to want to spend the time doing this, even if they agree its a valid point (which they may well not).
If you read the op then you'll see that they already did that.
  • Shield Mastery cost reduced to 1AP/rank (this also affects human's Fighting Style multiselector)
 

Jeronimo

Playing since 2006
And the imbues you're talking about affects mostly melees and melees are getting a buff this update. So they're moving some dps from column A to column B and overall net change is zero. So, it's balanced and fine.
No, no, no... ranged gets a huge load of imbue dice from lvl 20 to end game via EDs, filis, feats and sets. The imbues gotten during heroic levelling doesn't do that much for a ranged imbue focused build.... just a little nice-to-have-bonus. It's also in epics and beyond where spellpower really takes off.
 

Zoveride

Member
Apothecary

  • Core 1 is now: +1 Will save. Each core ability you take in this tree beyond the first grants +5 pos/neg spell power
  • Cores 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 now grant 2% Pos and Neg spell crit damage while in Verdanite instead of their original Verdanite boosts
  • Core 6 now grants +2 Transmutation DCs passively without requiring Verdanite
  • Tier 5 Master Apothecary now grants an additional +1 Spell Penetration (since this bonus was removed from Core 3)
  • New Tier 4: Apothecary's Satchel: 1 rank 2AP: You gain +5% Magical Efficiency (since this bonus was removed from Core 4)
  • Energy of the Scholar rank 3 is now 100 SP
Bombardier

  • Core 1 is now: +1 Fortitude save. Each core ability you take in this tree beyond the first grants +5 fire/cold/acid/electric/poison spell power and +1 Burning Ambition Dice
  • Cores 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 now grant +2% Fire, Cold, Electric, Acid, and Poison Spell Critical Damage instead of their original Pyrite boosts
  • Core 6 now grants +2 Conjuration DCs passively without requiring Pyrite
  • Cores 3, 4, 5 no longer grant burning ambition dice inconsistently and now just grant +1 each as per the text of core 1
  • Cores 3, 4, and 5 now grant +3 caster levels each BUT now require you to take different elements each time
  • Swift Ambition is now Holistic Ambition and grants Fortitude saving throws
  • Rapid Condensation SLA is gone
  • There are now 3 Vial SLAs in tiers 1, 2, and 3, you must take a different Vial element each time

ApothecaryCurativeAdmixtureHeal.png Curative Admixture: Heal: Curative Admixture Heal SLA and Curative Admixture Harm SLA that share a cooldown (Gildleaf spells).
Passive: While your Reaction is Verdanite, +1 Transmutation DC
AP Cost: 1Ranks: 1Progression: 30Requires: Spill the Bad Stuff, Alchemist Level 18


Liquid Power III: Select an Element to specialize in.
  • BombadierLiquidPowerAcidIII.png Liquid Power Acid: You gain +1 Caster Level with Acid Spells, and 1 extra Burning Ambition Die.
  • ic Spells, and 1 extra Burning Ambition Die.
While in Pyrite Reaction, you gain +1 Conjuration DC.
AP Cost: 1Ranks: 1Progression: 30Requires: Liquid Power II, Alchemist Level 18


Both Apothecary and Bombadier are losing +1 DC (Transmutation & Conjuration respectively) out of the 5th core.
Other items were removed from cores and put back in in tiers 4 & 5 for Apothecary.
Example: +1 spell pen from Core 3 and 5% magical efficiency from Core 4 were moved to Tier 5 & Tier 4 respectively.

+1 Transmutation DC from Apothecary Core 5 isn't moved anywhere.
+1 Conjuration DC from Bombadier Core 5 isn't moved anywhere.
 
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Marshal_Lannes

Well-known member
If you want to nerf something in the interest of slowing things down and making abilities uniform may I suggest removing all bonuses to speed in the game and make all characters move at the same rate. It has gotten fairly ridiculous when you can't even keep up with sprint bursts and Quivers of alacrity because the metacharacters are flying through dungeons like Sonic the Hedgehog.
 

Elminster

Former Pollster, Beloved by the DDO Forums.
If you want to nerf something in the interest of slowing things down and making abilities uniform may I suggest removing all bonuses to speed in the game and make all characters move at the same rate. It has gotten fairly ridiculous when you can't even keep up with sprint bursts and Quivers of alacrity because the metacharacters are flying through dungeons like Sonic the Hedgehog.
srb20019-gif.32723
 

Lotoc

Well-known member
If you want to nerf something in the interest of slowing things down and making abilities uniform may I suggest removing all bonuses to speed in the game and make all characters move at the same rate. It has gotten fairly ridiculous when you can't even keep up with sprint bursts and Quivers of alacrity because the metacharacters are flying through dungeons like Sonic the Hedgehog.
Tumbling right now on a character with no striding item can outspeed sprint boost, the playing field has been evened out.
 

Elminster

Former Pollster, Beloved by the DDO Forums.
If they're trying to nerf leveling speed, genuinely confused why casters aren't their focus.
Casters are a protected class because I'm at this point certain that most if not all the whales play casters.

They know their whale accounts and they know the preferences in terms of class and playstyle of said accounts. They don't want to do anything that may make them quit. Hence... casters are protected from nerfs.

*Also these whales don't solo R10's hence why the recent high-reaper caster damage nerf was OK'd. Whales are probably "normie" level players; after all if you can solo R10's why even invest money in the game anymore, you're done.
 

KylerrTheMajty

Well-known member
This is the generalized balance portion of U62, containing buffs and adjustments across many places. For this pass, we focused on more AP cost reductions in a few high-cost trees, Alchemist enhancement trees, and balancing the Imbue system for spellpower scaling imbues.

Monk Class

  • Monk combo builders now deal +10% damage, and their alignment based builders deal +15% damage
  • Monk Finishers now deal +30% damage
  • Touch of Death now deals +30% damage
  • Touch of Despair now scales with the highest of Dex/Wis and uses Assassinate DCs to determine its DC
Stormsinger

  • Stormsinger's metamagic costs are now set to the standard AP cost for metamagic enhancements (2AP each)
Across the Board

  • Spellpower scaling imbues have been standardized: They are all now 1d8 damage per imbue dice and all now scale with 75% spell power instead of 100%
    • Affects:
      • Eldritch Knight
      • Arcane Archer
      • Warchanter
      • Warpriest/Warsoul
      • Artificer
      • Dark Apostate
      • Druid Elemental Forms
      • Blightcaster
      • Vile Chemist
Arcane Archer (both Elf and Ranger)

  • Force Arrows is now 1 rank 2AP (uses the 3rd rank bonuses)
  • True Strike is now 1 rank 2AP (uses 3rd rank bonuses)
  • Inferno Shot is now 1 rank 2AP (uses the 3rd rank bonuses)
  • Shattermantle Shot is now 1 rank 2AP (uses the 3rd rank bonuses)
  • Dispelling Shot is now 1 rank 2AP (uses 3rd rank bonuses)
    • in total this saves 11AP since Force Arrows and Dispelling Shot were 3ranks/2AP!
Kensei

  • Tactics is now 1AP per rank
  • Weapon Focus vertical line and the Exotic Focus enhancement are now 1AP
    • in total this saves 8AP!
Dwarf

  • Shield Mastery cost reduced to 1AP/rank (this also affects human's Fighting Style multiselector)
Purple Dragon Knight

  • Sniper is now +1/2/3d6 Ranged Sneak Attack Dice and +2/4/6 Point Blank Shot distance, and now costs 1AP/rank (this also affects human's Fighting Style multiselector)
Vile Chemist

  • Core 1 is now: +1 Reflex save. Each core ability you take in this tree beyond the first grants +5 PRR
  • Cores 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 now grant +5 Poison Spell Power, 2% dodge, and 2% dodge cap while in Orchidium instead of their original Orchidium boosts
  • Core 3 is now Hidden Blades I and grants +5 Universal Spell Power, +3% Doublestrike and Doubleshot, and +1 Imbue Dice
  • Core 4 is now Hidden Blades II and grants +5 Universal Spell Power, +3% Doublestrike and Doubleshot, and +1 Imbue Dice, as well as granting you full Base Attack Bonus
  • Core 5 is now Hidden Blades III and grants +5 Universal Spell Power, +3% Doublestrike and Doubleshot, and +1 Imbue Dice, as well as a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier with all Simple weapons
  • Core 6 (Venom's Grip) now grants: +4 Intelligence, +10 Universal Spell Power, +3% Doublestrike and Doubleshot, and +2 Imbue Dice
  • Willful Ambition is now Swift Ambition and boosts Reflex saving throws
  • New Tier 4: Simple Thrown Mastery: If you have Simple Thrown Expertise, you now use the higher of your Intelligence and Dexterity to determine how much Doubleshot you gain from that feat.
  • Sapping Ambition which was very buggy is gone and is now Brushed Aside: You gain the Defensive Roll feat.
Apothecary

  • Core 1 is now: +1 Will save. Each core ability you take in this tree beyond the first grants +5 pos/neg spell power
  • Cores 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 now grant 2% Pos and Neg spell crit damage while in Verdanite instead of their original Verdanite boosts
  • Core 6 now grants +2 Transmutation DCs passively without requiring Verdanite
  • Tier 5 Master Apothecary now grants an additional +1 Spell Penetration (since this bonus was removed from Core 3)
  • New Tier 4: Apothecary's Satchel: 1 rank 2AP: You gain +5% Magical Efficiency (since this bonus was removed from Core 4)
  • Energy of the Scholar rank 3 is now 100 SP
Bombardier

  • Core 1 is now: +1 Fortitude save. Each core ability you take in this tree beyond the first grants +5 fire/cold/acid/electric/poison spell power and +1 Burning Ambition Dice
  • Cores 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 now grant +2% Fire, Cold, Electric, Acid, and Poison Spell Critical Damage instead of their original Pyrite boosts
  • Core 6 now grants +2 Conjuration DCs passively without requiring Pyrite
  • Cores 3, 4, 5 no longer grant burning ambition dice inconsistently and now just grant +1 each as per the text of core 1
  • Cores 3, 4, and 5 now grant +3 caster levels each BUT now require you to take different elements each time
  • Swift Ambition is now Holistic Ambition and grants Fortitude saving throws
  • Rapid Condensation SLA is gone
  • There are now 3 Vial SLAs in tiers 1, 2, and 3, you must take a different Vial element each time

If you like these kinds of changes and would like to see more of them, please let us know! And if you have your own suggestions as to what should be adjusted, please feel free to let us know about those as well!
Can you upgrade frenzy enhancments

Sprint boost should be multiselector
Wade in is pointless
Lash out same pointless atm
 

Pesh

Well-known member
AA is in great need of an overhaul but if we are working incrementally then baseline dps needs help first then we can talk about the failings of its utility.

Easy way would be: Add archers focus stacking whilst moving to tier 5 runebow and 20% stacking bow attack speed to capstone. These buffs will greatly buff baseline dps without affecting the top end Slayer Arrows that the devs are obviously scared of.

These aren't ideal changes because AA will still be weak while levelling but I'd much appreciate a buff to endgame AA builds over anything else.

Please devs give us some sign of how much work you are prepared to do to AA to revamp it so we can give better suggestions. People are suggesting all sorts of stuff and if you cherry pick a single thing here and there you could end up making changes that have no real impact.
 
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