U62 Preview 2 Balance Refresh

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Lazuli

Well-known member
If they're trying to nerf leveling speed, genuinely confused why casters aren't their focus.
They are not trying to nerf the leveling speed, they are handling bad data just like what happened with the spellcaster part of the shiradi. Because they have seen that many people use imbues, they already think that they are op. It is not more than that.

They haven't even stopped to think about the impact that this change has on almost pure builds versus highly multiclass builds, nor that there are many imbues that have restrictions on use, or that are in class trees that depend more of the imbue than the main damage of the weapon. Unfortunately, this is not the first time that SSG has overreacted by acting on partial data and without looking at the bigger picture.

Honestly, if they didn't want people to earn imbue dice above a certain limit, I don't know why they created universal imbue dice. Anyone who had stopped to think would have realized that this disproportionately benefits multiclass builds vs. almost pure class ones. But now they make the nerf thinking about those multiclass builds, but destroying the weak ones in the process: those for whom the imbue was intended before last year's change, those who are basically pure, etc.

If it were the first time they did this... but their nerfs always have the same result.

And the saddest thing about it? The thing is that there aren't even ops builds that depend on the imbue. To gain an exaggerated number of imbue dices you need to neglect the physical dps of your weapon. And that doesn't make up for it. I really don't know what kind of data the devs handle.
 
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Aerendil

Member
Please consider a revamp of Monk combos / finishers. That's 4 button presses - each of which does have a cooldown - which has a time frame of approx 4 - 8 sec to complete (longer for the light x 3 or dark x 3, due to CDs). AND then with a saving throw at the end of all of that.

10 years ago when fights were a little longer, this wasn't horrible. These days, outside of red-named epic bosses in raids, very few monsters survive long enough for that. The only solution is to "prep" those finishers, but then we are unable to interact with any items in the game, or use many other attacks, or risk losing it.

As a start, I'd love to see combos / finishers as dex/wis to match the other special attacks. But would also love to see them as faster executing attacks (1-button presses would be amazing). Really, any improvements would be very much appreciated.

*edit* - also, NiS tree: No Mercy is 2 AP per rank. Falconry's same skill is 1 AP per rank. Please adjust.
 
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Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
I really don't know what kind of data the devs handle.
Data is based on numbers. Top players using the top builds are a minority. So the data they see is likely that the majority of average players are performing slightly above average on easy to build for spell damage imbue builds, meanwhile top players are just using shifters, shadarkai, and spamming adrenaline... (which are now getting buffed ;))
 

Requiro

Member
Data is based on numbers. Top players using the top builds are a minority. So the data they see is likely that the majority of average players are performing slightly above average on easy to build for spell damage imbue builds, meanwhile top players are just using shifters, shadarkai, and spamming adrenaline... (which are now getting buffed ;))
Well, I don't know. More likely for me is the Lazuli version. This change, which really only weakens AA and EK (for the rest, as someone wrote here, the difference is almost imperceptible) does not do much. And it creates a lot of confusion.

And Lazuli is right that a lot of players use the Imbue system because it's just currently cool - because it's what players always like - Synergy (btw: IMO that's why long ago Diablo 2 had a renaissance after the patch, probably 1.14 introducing Synergy). And certainly it is not OP and does not need a nerf (In particular, AA).
 

Elminster

Former Pollster, Beloved by the DDO Forums.
when they listen to you and nerf melee
troy-laugh.gif
 

Teh_Troll

Well-known member
Wait . . . they're NERFING ARCANE ARCHER? Talk about punching down.

Is this serious? SSG is nerfing literally THE WORST ranged style?

This might be worse than nerfing all casters in high-reaper because cold-nukers were over-performing.
 
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Kielbasa

Well-known member
AA is in great need of an overhaul but if we are working incrementally then baseline dps needs help first then we can talk about the failings of its utility.

Easy way would be: Add archers focus stacking whilst moving to tier 5 runebow and 20% stacking bow attack speed to capstone. These buffs will greatly buff baseline dps without affecting the top end Slayer Arrows that the devs are obviously scared of.

These aren't ideal changes because AA will still be weak while levelling but I'd much appreciate a buff to endgame AA builds over anything else.

Please devs give us some sign of how much work you are prepared to do to AA to revamp it so we can give better suggestions. People are suggesting all sorts of stuff and if you cherry pick a single thing here and there you could end up making changes that have no real impact.

A couple of interesting things they could add to Arcane Archer would be to turn inferno shot into into explosive shot (fireball effect on hit) or bursting arrow (forceball on hit) to give them some sort of useful area of effect for the leveling process. Then go all in on this is a spell power ranged build and have rune bow make archer focus stacks give stacking spell power to really lean into the imbue aspect of the tree. It would sort of be in parity with the other ranged bow trees that give more stacks of archer's focus.
 

Requiro

Member
Wait . . . they're NERFING ARCANE ARCHER? Talk about punching down.

Is this serious? SSG is nerfing literally THE WORST ranged style?

This might be worse than nerfing all casters in high-reaper because cold-nukers were over-performing.
Yes, you are right. The core style of DnD and the worst ranged style in DDO will be nerfed :)

To make it even better they upgraded a completely useless skill from Core 1 AA to a useful one - just as players have been asking for several years. I guess just to make AA players even more disappointed.

It's quite funny when I described it that way....
 

droid327

Well-known member
Please consider a revamp of Monk combos / finishers. That's 4 button presses - each of which does have a cooldown - which has a time frame of approx 4 - 8 sec to complete (longer for the light x 3 or dark x 3, due to CDs). AND then with a saving throw at the end of all of that.

10 years ago when fights were a little longer, this wasn't horrible. These days, outside of red-named epic bosses in raids, very few monsters survive long enough for that. The only solution is to "prep" those finishers, but then we are unable to interact with any items in the game, or use many other attacks, or risk losing it.

As a start, I'd love to see combos / finishers as dex/wis to match the other special attacks. But would also love to see them as faster executing attacks (1-button presses would be amazing). Really, any improvements would be very much appreciated.

*edit* - also, NiS tree: No Mercy is 2 AP per rank. Falconry's same skill is 1 AP per rank. Please adjust.

I used to play Warden on LOTRO back in the day and it had a way better combo system than Monk. The same basic idea - you have three builders, you build a sequence and then finish it. Except that was way more fluid, the combos were more logical, and the scale of effects were well suited to the pace of combat in the game.

But it shows you that the company has people who know how to build a combo-based class...they just dont in DDO...

If Monk builders were all 1 sec cooldown (shared cooldown for all builders of a given element), and combos were totally redone to have no XXX, but they were all XYZ or XYX so you could chain them more fluidly, and then do a total rewrite on what the effects are so they're relevant to modern gameplay with proper scaling...that'd be the unarmed Monk renaissance people keep asking for.
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
Well the imbue nerf is going live. I wish they would have atleast listened to the feedback to make them 1d6 and scale with 100% of spellpower. 1d8 and scaling with 75% spellpower is needlessly complex and unintuitive.
 

Argavyon

Member
Additionally for Warlock ES, can we finally adjust Celestial Spirit so that necrolocks can benefit from it when in shroud? It has never made sense that every ES eligible Warlock can use this fully with the exception of Abyss. Yes its a side effect of how major forms interact but it seems to be an unintentional one. I dont see any reason why the devs wanted this one type of warlock to not benefit from this method of feather falling, knockback, and floaties - when the other pacts can use their full kits without penalty.
Abyss pact could also use a spell change on their first two spells, Mage Armor and Spawn Screen.
As they stand, they aren't particularly useful.
IDK what would be good replacements, maybe Resistance and Lesser Death Aura?
 

CBDunk

Well-known member
I used to play Warden on LOTRO back in the day and it had a way better combo system than Monk. The same basic idea - you have three builders, you build a sequence and then finish it. Except that was way more fluid, the combos were more logical, and the scale of effects were well suited to the pace of combat in the game.

But it shows you that the company has people who know how to build a combo-based class...they just dont in DDO...

Wasn't Warden introduced pre-SSG? I also recall seeing something a while back about them making changes to simplify the Warden and the Rune Keeper class which was introduced at the same time and had similar mechanics for building up to 'finishers'.

Anyway, LotRO is a very different game. It has MUCH less build flexibility and relies much more on precisely timing various sequences of abilities for maximum impact. Thus, that kind of 'builder' structure is more 'baked in' to the game design. You just aren't likely to get something with that level of complexity in DDO without major changes to underlying systems. Current Monk and Alchemist 'synergies' are the upper level of what DDO has to offer on that type of gaming. Which... is actually fine by me, as I'm not overly fond of that style.
 

Tesrali (sam-u-r-eye)

Well-known member
Wasn't Warden introduced pre-SSG? I also recall seeing something a while back about them making changes to simplify the Warden and the Rune Keeper class which was introduced at the same time and had similar mechanics for building up to 'finishers'.

Anyway, LotRO is a very different game. It has MUCH less build flexibility and relies much more on precisely timing various sequences of abilities for maximum impact. Thus, that kind of 'builder' structure is more 'baked in' to the game design. You just aren't likely to get something with that level of complexity in DDO without major changes to underlying systems. Current Monk and Alchemist 'synergies' are the upper level of what DDO has to offer on that type of gaming. Which... is actually fine by me, as I'm not overly fond of that style.
I don't know many who are fond of that style. It lends to just staring at hot bars IMO.
 

droid327

Well-known member
Wasn't Warden introduced pre-SSG? I also recall seeing something a while back about them making changes to simplify the Warden and the Rune Keeper class which was introduced at the same time and had similar mechanics for building up to 'finishers'.

Anyway, LotRO is a very different game. It has MUCH less build flexibility and relies much more on precisely timing various sequences of abilities for maximum impact. Thus, that kind of 'builder' structure is more 'baked in' to the game design. You just aren't likely to get something with that level of complexity in DDO without major changes to underlying systems. Current Monk and Alchemist 'synergies' are the upper level of what DDO has to offer on that type of gaming. Which... is actually fine by me, as I'm not overly fond of that style.

It was, but so was Monk. And both DDO and LOTRO have followed the same chain of custody since then.

I disagree that Warden style builders wouldnt fit into DDO. The pace of combat is pretty similar...the only big difference is Warden has 3 builders and Monk has 5, so there's vastly more potential combinations. Maybe they'd have to get rid of Dark/Light and Void builders and weave those finishers into the base 4 to simplify combo building. I dont see why that wouldn't work in DDO's combat engine, for those that wanted such a playstyle.

I don't know many who are fond of that style. It lends to just staring at hot bars IMO.

You wouldnt have to watch your hotbar, because you'd never be waiting on anything to cool down. You'd just have to know you were doing a 1-3-1-F or a 2-4-3-F and have a feel for the rhythm. Like I said, it was fun with Wardens having all those combos in your toolbox, and knowing how to use them strategically to stay ahead of the fight, and having the player skill to execute them accurately and well.

The finishers would have to be worthwhile for the time it takes to build them, though, in order to make the builder-finisher process feel rewarding and fun. But a 1-2-3-2-4-F that unleashed, say, a Drifting Lotus attack on a pack of trash mobs would definitely be fun to weave in when it was most useful.
 

Marshal_Lannes

Well-known member
A couple of interesting things they could add to Arcane Archer would be to turn inferno shot into into explosive shot (fireball effect on hit) or bursting arrow (forceball on hit) to give them some sort of useful area of effect for the leveling process. Then go all in on this is a spell power ranged build and have rune bow make archer focus stacks give stacking spell power to really lean into the imbue aspect of the tree. It would sort of be in parity with the other ranged bow trees that give more stacks of archer's focus.
While this would be an improvement to leveling, it would have no effect on Legendary play as this damage would be reduced in R7+ so much that it would be useless. Plus the mobs would make their saves because an AA could never get saves high enough that casters can get and that is what DCs are based on. So you're talking half damage reduced by 90%. I mean you'd be literally seeing 40 points of damage from an ability you were used to clearing packs of mobs with back in L5 Feywild.

None of this matters now since the changes are going live. Since the Devs likely are at least reading this thread in the future maybe don't go after a weak tree, to begin with, that wasn't hurting anyone and an imbue system that as has been pointed was popular and fun with players who used it to gear up alts or characters that they didn't want to min/max on. Imbues AA and EKs are not the problem with fast leveling. It's characters tumbling through quests at warp speed because realistically none of these combat changes matter a bit if you aren't in the room to kill anything and it's getting to the point that you can't be in the room to kill anything if you aren't tumbling through the halls like a hedgehog.
 

misterski

Well-known member
It was, but so was Monk. And both DDO and LOTRO have followed the same chain of custody since then.

I disagree that Warden style builders wouldnt fit into DDO. The pace of combat is pretty similar...the only big difference is Warden has 3 builders and Monk has 5, so there's vastly more potential combinations. Maybe they'd have to get rid of Dark/Light and Void builders and weave those finishers into the base 4 to simplify combo building. I dont see why that wouldn't work in DDO's combat engine, for those that wanted such a playstyle.



You wouldnt have to watch your hotbar, because you'd never be waiting on anything to cool down. You'd just have to know you were doing a 1-3-1-F or a 2-4-3-F and have a feel for the rhythm. Like I said, it was fun with Wardens having all those combos in your toolbox, and knowing how to use them strategically to stay ahead of the fight, and having the player skill to execute them accurately and well.

The finishers would have to be worthwhile for the time it takes to build them, though, in order to make the builder-finisher process feel rewarding and fun. But a 1-2-3-2-4-F that unleashed, say, a Drifting Lotus attack on a pack of trash mobs would definitely be fun to weave in when it was most useful.
There's also the size of the warden's combos compared to monk combos. Warden combos vary from 2 to 6 whereas monks are all 3.
 

Ethnyae

Member
Understanding the math of Imbues that are going from 1d6 to 1d8 w/ the 75% Spell Power scaling nerf.

AVERAGE BASE DAMAGE:
For simplicity, we will be using the damage for a single die, but if you would like to figure out how much damage you have, just multiply the average damage by the number of dice you have. Also for simplicity, I used the average damage that these dice generate, which is (Maximum + Minimum)/2.

1d6 Avg = (6+1)/2 = 3.5
1d8 Avg = (8+1)/2 = 4.5

CALCULATIONS:
The general formula is Base Avg Dmg * (1 + (Spell Power/100) * Spell Power Scaling). Because of the one in GREEN, our end charts will not have a linear relationship and I can't give a solid number for how buffed or nerfed the imbues became. Remember that Spell Power Scaling is a percentage, so 100% is equal to 1, and 75% is equal to 0.75. I divide the Spell Power by 100 because each point is a 1% increase of the base damage.

For the old damage, I did 3.5 * (1 + Spell Power/100).
For the new damage, I did 4.5 * (1 + (Spell Power/100) * 0.75)

For the percentage change, I used the standard formula, (Final Value - Initial Value) / Initial Value.

RESULTS:
xjrGE5g.png


From this chart, we can see that the changes seem very marginal and that you'd be hard-pressed to be able to see the difference in damage.

9xC6ESO.png

If we zoom in on the first 200 spell power we see that the increase was just 1 damage and the increase gets smaller as you progress. But this doesn't quite tell you the whole story, let's look at the percentage change.

acgQYBJ.png


On this chart, we can see that these changes are a net positive up until 800 spell power, where we break even. After 800 spell power, you start to lose damage. I'm my opinion, most people weren't using 1d6 imbues and investing heavily in them, such that they would a) add in non-low hanging imbue dice or b) invest over 800 spell power.

If you would like to check out how I did the math or how your particular build will be affected, given your spell power/base damage, check out this spreadsheet:

PS: On the second page, I have the math for the nerf to existing 1d8 die imbues.
if your math is correct - and i'm not saying it's not - then why make the change in the first place, if the effect is virtually nil? seems like a waste of dev time and causing unnecessary player perceptions of nerf
 
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