U62 Preview 2 Balance Refresh

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Zvdegor

Melee Artificer Freak
This is the generalized balance portion of U62, containing buffs and adjustments across many places. For this pass, we focused on more AP cost reductions in a few high-cost trees, Alchemist enhancement trees, and balancing the Imbue system for spellpower scaling imbues.

Monk Class

  • Monk combo builders now deal +10% damage, and their alignment based builders deal +15% damage
  • Monk Finishers now deal +30% damage
  • Touch of Death now deals +30% damage
  • Touch of Despair now scales with the highest of Dex/Wis and uses Assassinate DCs to determine its DC
Stormsinger

  • Stormsinger's metamagic costs are now set to the standard AP cost for metamagic enhancements (2AP each)
Across the Board

  • Spellpower scaling imbues have been standardized: They are all now 1d8 damage per imbue dice and all now scale with 75% spell power instead of 100%
    • Affects:
      • Eldritch Knight
      • Arcane Archer
      • Warchanter
      • Warpriest/Warsoul
      • Artificer
      • Dark Apostate
      • Druid Elemental Forms
      • Blightcaster
      • Vile Chemist
Arcane Archer (both Elf and Ranger)

  • Force Arrows is now 1 rank 2AP (uses the 3rd rank bonuses)
  • True Strike is now 1 rank 2AP (uses 3rd rank bonuses)
  • Inferno Shot is now 1 rank 2AP (uses the 3rd rank bonuses)
  • Shattermantle Shot is now 1 rank 2AP (uses the 3rd rank bonuses)
  • Dispelling Shot is now 1 rank 2AP (uses 3rd rank bonuses)
    • in total this saves 11AP since Force Arrows and Dispelling Shot were 3ranks/2AP!
Kensei

  • Tactics is now 1AP per rank
  • Weapon Focus vertical line and the Exotic Focus enhancement are now 1AP
    • in total this saves 8AP!
Dwarf

  • Shield Mastery cost reduced to 1AP/rank (this also affects human's Fighting Style multiselector)
Purple Dragon Knight

  • Sniper is now +1/2/3d6 Ranged Sneak Attack Dice and +2/4/6 Point Blank Shot distance, and now costs 1AP/rank (this also affects human's Fighting Style multiselector)
Vile Chemist

  • Core 1 is now: +1 Reflex save. Each core ability you take in this tree beyond the first grants +5 PRR
  • Cores 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 now grant +5 Poison Spell Power, 2% dodge, and 2% dodge cap while in Orchidium instead of their original Orchidium boosts
  • Core 3 is now Hidden Blades I and grants +5 Universal Spell Power, +3% Doublestrike and Doubleshot, and +1 Imbue Dice
  • Core 4 is now Hidden Blades II and grants +5 Universal Spell Power, +3% Doublestrike and Doubleshot, and +1 Imbue Dice, as well as granting you full Base Attack Bonus
  • Core 5 is now Hidden Blades III and grants +5 Universal Spell Power, +3% Doublestrike and Doubleshot, and +1 Imbue Dice, as well as a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier with all Simple weapons
  • Core 6 (Venom's Grip) now grants: +4 Intelligence, +10 Universal Spell Power, +3% Doublestrike and Doubleshot, and +2 Imbue Dice
  • Willful Ambition is now Swift Ambition and boosts Reflex saving throws
  • New Tier 4: Simple Thrown Mastery: If you have Simple Thrown Expertise, you now use the higher of your Intelligence and Dexterity to determine how much Doubleshot you gain from that feat.
  • Sapping Ambition which was very buggy is gone and is now Brushed Aside: You gain the Defensive Roll feat.
Apothecary

  • Core 1 is now: +1 Will save. Each core ability you take in this tree beyond the first grants +5 pos/neg spell power
  • Cores 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 now grant 2% Pos and Neg spell crit damage while in Verdanite instead of their original Verdanite boosts
  • Core 6 now grants +2 Transmutation DCs passively without requiring Verdanite
  • Tier 5 Master Apothecary now grants an additional +1 Spell Penetration (since this bonus was removed from Core 3)
  • New Tier 4: Apothecary's Satchel: 1 rank 2AP: You gain +5% Magical Efficiency (since this bonus was removed from Core 4)
  • Energy of the Scholar rank 3 is now 100 SP
Bombardier

  • Core 1 is now: +1 Fortitude save. Each core ability you take in this tree beyond the first grants +5 fire/cold/acid/electric/poison spell power and +1 Burning Ambition Dice
  • Cores 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 now grant +2% Fire, Cold, Electric, Acid, and Poison Spell Critical Damage instead of their original Pyrite boosts
  • Core 6 now grants +2 Conjuration DCs passively without requiring Pyrite
  • Cores 3, 4, 5 no longer grant burning ambition dice inconsistently and now just grant +1 each as per the text of core 1
  • Cores 3, 4, and 5 now grant +3 caster levels each BUT now require you to take different elements each time
  • Swift Ambition is now Holistic Ambition and grants Fortitude saving throws
  • Rapid Condensation SLA is gone
  • There are now 3 Vial SLAs in tiers 1, 2, and 3, you must take a different Vial element each time

If you like these kinds of changes and would like to see more of them, please let us know! And if you have your own suggestions as to what should be adjusted, please feel free to let us know about those as well!
Made a post about Renegde Mastermaker Rebalance ideas. Please read, share, support, comment.

 

Tesrali (sam-u-r-eye)

Well-known member
Any AP reduction is welcome because it opens up new build options. I do wonder why some enhancements get so easily overlooked though when you're already changing enhancement costs in that tree. For example: Dwarf's Child of the Mountain ranks 1 and 2 costing 2 AP for +1 Fort save each. That's ridiculously overcosted.

Alchemist changes are solid. Though you still won't see Alchemists as primary healers (majority of AP spent in Apothecary) because their heal vials are too slow. Panacea Poultice (T3) remains useless because of the touch range. The restriction on ally-only is also needlessly limiting.
amen
 

Neain

Well-known member
I like all imbues being the same from the start.
But I like to see the follow up to this by balancing things more with imbue dice numbers and spellpower.

Also, is their any progress with imbue dmg working with threat/diversion?

The elemental imbues that scale with spell power already work with threat reduction. The issue, is that they work with SPELL threat reduction, but never mention that anywhere.

While I was playing my imbue build for a while (before macrotechnic) I was grabbing the discipline feat and the caster threat reduction in Magus of the Eclipse and no matter how much I was dominating the kills and doing damage I didnt pull aggro.

Edit: I haven't been playing my imbue for a while because too many other builds are better even when I push the imbues to the limit. It was fun and I was looking forward to using it to get legendary TRs (assuming that they would eventually happen), but these nerfs are making that look more and more unlikely.
 
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fiwabar

Old-timer, mostly an observer
Kensei

  • Tactics is now 1AP per rank
  • Weapon Focus vertical line and the Exotic Focus enhancement are now 1AP
    • in total this saves 8AP!
Dwarf

  • Shield Mastery cost reduced to 1AP/rank (this also affects human's Fighting Style multiselector)
Could you guys disconnect Improved Dodge and Athletic Mastery from each other? Or at least remove the ling armor/no armor requirement in the first one? Max Dex Bonus increase and Armor check penalty decrease cool, but only in light armor or no armor? Because what if I take MDB and ACP if I have to first waste AP, which thanks to the above changes I'll get some back, on something I won't use. And I don't hide the fact that extra dodge always good for a master of weapons and armor like Kensai. For a warrior who wears heavy armor to maximize PRR do you give to light armor? It will be very helpful to reduce the cost of AP weapon specialization line, but in fact not many enhancements are left to use the points saved in this way. And splitting Athletic Mastery from Improved Dodge or removing the requirement(to make it work)light armor/no armor would help to make those APs usable and have those 40AP to capstone.

On top of that, could you guys add some more bonus to e.g. One with the Blade? Since it's one with the weapon it would fit e.g. +5% Offhand strike chance, +10% Strikethrough, +3% Doublestrike and Doubleshot or something with similar values. Alternatively, instead of here it is about a tier earlier in tier 4 Strike at the Heart? Barbarian has such bonuses, Knight of the Chalice has, Thief Acrobat, even Warpriest or Battle Engineer has and Kensai does not.

Well, and since you are lowering the cost of AP Weapon specialization line to 1AP, maybe by the same token it would be worth lowering Righteous Weapons and both War Priests? Or Sharpshoter line or Acrobat Staff/Henshin Staff training? Though that would probably be too much, yet I think fair.

In Dwarf I think it would also be worth lowering Child of the Mountain to 1AP. Most races have in enhancements the ability to increase any defensive throw and it costs 1AP, why in a dwarf 2AP?
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
Since all these changes seems like straight up power-creep and not actual balance changes, how about you give monks their unarmed damage scaling back?
They have. It was simply moved to the handwraps. Oh and they got 1.5x stat modifier to main hand and off hand, along with 100% doublestrike scaling for off hand.

Monks are doing fine.
 

Nickodeamous

Well-known member
They have. It was simply moved to the handwraps. Oh and they got 1.5x stat modifier

Monks are doing fine.
I am confused about your statement on 1.5x stat modifier. The only thing I could find on wiki is this:

Although it increases saves as well as damage, more DPS builds aim towards Strength as it grants 1.5x Strength to damage as opposed to 1x Dexterity to damage.

Most handwrap monks are wisdom based, so where is that 1.5x you mention? I can't find anywhere that talk about this.

Thanks!
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
I am confused about your statement on 1.5x stat modifier. The only thing I could find on wiki is this:

Although it increases saves as well as damage, more DPS builds aim towards Strength as it grants 1.5x Strength to damage as opposed to 1x Dexterity to damage.

Most handwrap monks are wisdom based, so where is that 1.5x you mention? I can't find anywhere that talk about this.

Thanks!
When handwraps were made into 2h-weapons they got 1,5x ability modifier like regular 2h weapons for both main hand and off hand. I doubt it is increased to 2,5x with the THF line, but who knows...
 

Nickodeamous

Well-known member
When handwraps were made into 2h-weapons they got 1,5x ability modifier like regular 2h weapons for both main hand and off hand. I doubt it is increased to 2,5x with the THF line, but who knows...
handwraps are not two handed weapons though. that's like a greatsword. they are two weapon fighting. (considered Dual wielding)

  • Since using handwraps effectively counts as dual wielding without the attack penalties, the Two Weapon Fighting line of feats allow players using handwraps to increase the number of off-hand procs per attack.
So, yes, you get offhand strikes, but the damage is not modified by 1.5 anywhere that I can find. do you know where it says this? just curious.

thanks again!
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
handwraps are not two handed weapons though. that's like a greatsword. they are two weapon fighting. (considered Dual wielding)

  • Since using handwraps effectively counts as dual wielding without the attack penalties, the Two Weapon Fighting line of feats allow players using handwraps to increase the number of off-hand procs per attack.
So, yes, you get offhand strikes, but the damage is not modified by 1.5 anywhere that I can find. do you know where it says this? just curious.

thanks again!

It's easily testable in game.
People like to hate on the devs for nerfing monks so much that facts like this tends to be ignored...
 

The Blonde

Catalogues Bugs
@Torc

Something went wrong with the AA active attacks that you changed to be 2 AP for 1 rank. When I click on them I get a multiselector offering me to choose between the old 3 ranks of the ability.
 

Lotoc

Well-known member
Hand wraps are mechanically one of the strongest weapons in the game.
They attack faster than regular twf.
They get full damage modifier to offhand hits.
They get 100% of doublestrike to offhand hits. (Perfect two weapon fighting genuinely does nothing for handwraps)
If you can't leverage these advantages the weapon might just not be for you.
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
Hand wraps are mechanically one of the strongest weapons in the game.
They attack faster than regular twf.
They get full damage modifier to offhand hits.
They get 100% of doublestrike to offhand hits. (Perfect two weapon fighting genuinely does nothing for handwraps)
If you can't leverage these advantages the weapon might just not be for you.

Even better, they get 1,5x modifier to both main and off-hand.
No one who endlessly complains about the +[W] moving from levels to weapons seem to know about this...
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
Though you still won't see Alchemists as primary healers (majority of AP spent in Apothecary) because their heal vials are too slow.
I also find it annoying that admixture vials also can't be quickened so there's no way to have guaranteed uninterruptible casts. They should let all admixtures be able to take quicken (even if the cast time isn't effected) for that or they should bake the same interrupt protection into accelerate spell.
 

Neain

Well-known member
I would 100% play an alch healer (at least for a little bit) if we could quicken the admixture vials. This would be a great future (hopefully) small QOL adjustment. but as it stands, by the time I finish the animation, there is no living player for the heal vial to hit
 

Warsaga

present day - present time
Thanks for the Balance work. Those seems nice!

I'm stubborn, will ask for this again!

Could the Enlightened Spirit enhancements Tier 4s Brilliance and Spiritual Retribution be switched and change the pre-requisite?

Spiritual Retribution works as imbue for Warlock Blasters, while Brilliance works just for Auralocks. Still if you as a Blasters want to get Spiritual Retribution you need to "waste" AP points in an useless Eldrich Aura tree.

The name order will be kind no sense, but it could be changed as well. Looking like this:

Spiritual Defense - Spiritual Bastion - Spiritual Ward - Spiritual Brilliance
Power of Enlightenment: Light - Power of Enlightenment: Light - Enlightenment Retribution
Additionally for Warlock ES, can we finally adjust Celestial Spirit so that necrolocks can benefit from it when in shroud? It has never made sense that every ES eligible Warlock can use this fully with the exception of Abyss. Yes its a side effect of how major forms interact but it seems to be an unintentional one. I dont see any reason why the devs wanted this one type of warlock to not benefit from this method of feather falling, knockback, and floaties - when the other pacts can use their full kits without penalty.
 

Requiro

Member
Whyyyy do you keep doing this, SSG?

Why do you keep making these huge, horrible unforced errors? This is the Amber Temple last preview all over again

No one was complaining about Imbue damage being OP. It was not rendering non-Imbue builds irrelevant. It was not giving you more power for the opportunity cost than other build pathways. Spellpower imbues were not making MP/RP imbues irrelevant either; both have their niche in the game right now, as you would expect: one for hybrid caster/melee, one for pure martial builds.

It was not a problem, but you're trying to solve it like it was a problem

If you want to standardize spellpower imbues, sure that's fine. But dont do it by nerfing all the imbues people are actually using to suck as much as the imbues we're not. This will totally gut my EK/PM inqui, for one, since he uses his Acid Spellsword. I dont understand why you'd spend so much time and effort creating and supporting the Imbue system as an alternative to purely phys/crit/sneak damage builds, a system that's been largely successful, and then suddenly and arbitrarily just turn and throw it in the dumpster like this

You just Order 66ed imbue builds
Because AA?
 
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