U66 Preview 2: Tumble Changes

droid327

Well-known member
That's another logical disaster. If less XP/min is objectively worse than more XP/min, then it follows that they should always increase xp/min as much as they can. You are literally saying that it's a mistake to not increase xp/min by a factor of 1000 every update. I consider that an unreasonable position.

If you can increase the efficiency of quests 1000x without reducing the actual challenge of quests, then yeah that's an improvement and that's not unreasonable at all

(And I dont just mean tuning up XP, I mean the actual efficiency of questing, the pacing, for which XP/min is a metric, if you're comparing apples to apples)

I don't get why keep insisting that it's some sort of objective truth behind your opinion that somehow is lacking from others opinion.

Because, again, the players spoke with their shift buttons. When given the choice, people chose tumble speed. If they didnt...this thread wouldnt exist
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
If you can increase the efficiency of quests 1000x without reducing the actual challenge of quests, then yeah that's an improvement and that's not unreasonable at all

(And I dont just mean tuning up XP, I mean the actual efficiency of questing, the pacing, for which XP/min is a metric, if you're comparing apples to apples)
You literally said "less XP/min is objectively worse than more XP/min". Are you changing your claim?

Because, again, the players spoke with their shift buttons. When given the choice, people chose tumble speed. If they didnt...this thread wouldnt exist
If they add a checkbox for +500% damage players would choose to use it, that does not mean it's an objectively good addition to the game.

Why is this so hard for you? Just say that in your opinion they should add a OOC speed boost. There is no need to invoke objectivety for a clearly subjective matter.
 

droid327

Well-known member
You literally said "less XP/min is objectively worse than more XP/min". Are you changing your claim?

More efficiency is better than less efficiency. XP/min is a metric for efficiency, when compared apples to apples

If they add a checkbox for +500% damage players would choose to use it, that does not mean it's an objectively good addition to the game.

Watering down the competitive balance would be objectively bad for the game, but that doesnt apply to run speed bonuses.

Lets hear your argument for why being slower is a good thing, though. Until you can defend slowness on its own merits, nothing else you're saying really carries any weight.
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
More efficiency is better than less efficiency. XP/min is a metric for efficiency, when compared apples to apples
"less XP/min is objectively worse than more XP/min". True or false? No more moving the goal posts, no if or buts.

Watering down the competitive balance would be objectively bad for the game, but that doesnt apply to run speed bonuses.
So you agree that the justification you cited for your case is equally valid when used to justify an objectively bad case?

Lets hear your argument for why being slower is a good thing, though. Until you can defend slowness on its own merits, nothing else you're saying really carries any weight.
I have already told you. I dislike the gameplay implications of your suggestions. You still have not explained why your opinion carry any more weight than anyone elses.
 

Ellisaria

Well-known member
I like the idea of tumble Pips being an optional UI toggle you can move around, or tie to your character frame, or hide completely if you so choose.

I'd probably have them above my char ui frame at all times, preferably sideways. The tech to do this is used in action bars, I fail to see an issue in implementing it that way.
Always on display with a moveable UI is good. Trying to tumble when out of charges is terrible. Sitting in front of an attack you would have otherwise tried running away from because that's what it takes to queue pips makes no sense. As much as I hate hotbar clutter, I'd also accept being able to drag the tumble skill onto a bar with a number in the icon's corner showing how many charges are available and a recast timer .
 
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droid327

Well-known member
"less XP/min is objectively worse than more XP/min". True or false? No more moving the goal posts, no if or buts.


So you agree that the justification you cited for your case is equally valid when used to justify an objectively bad case?


I have already told you. I dislike the gameplay implications of your suggestions. You still have not explained why your opinion carry any more weight than anyone elses.

Well at this point you're just attacking increasingly trivial details, not the actual substance of my argument... Which is a bad faith argument like all yours have been, but not a useful one for the devs to hear, so I won't say anything more than simply "false" and "no"

However, I've challenged you to make a positive case for the status quo, and you've dodged the question every time. You certainly seem very sure of your position, so if you want to actually provide some of those "gameplay implications" so they can be defended or refuted, that would be useful to explore
 

Frybri73

Member
wouldnt the obvious easy fix be to cap the speed increase so that people that like the way it is now can keep it and it couldnt be abused. Seems unfair to give everyone 95% dodge. A Paladin in heavy armor and 1 rank in tumble will get the same benefit as say a Monk with no armor and say 50 ranks in tumble. How is this balanced? The Paladin already has a significant advantage in damage resistance anyway now they get to dodge like the light armored characters purpose built for that? To be fair if you keep this (seems youre going to unfortunately)the dodge bonus should be 1% per tumble or something like that. that way people who build for it get the benefit. also I was wondering what the max number of charges is going to be and what is the reduced recharge rate? is it going to be so people are going to maintain at least 1 charge most of the time? if so....yeah nobody will exploit that..
 

Mary

Well-known member
The Tumble changes are super fun and great for the game - I love the charges idea and tying them to feats/classes/races/abilities for charges to spend and refresh on charge time - way to go!
 

droid327

Well-known member
wouldnt the obvious easy fix be to cap the speed increase so that people that like the way it is now can keep it and it couldnt be abused. Seems unfair to give everyone 95% dodge. A Paladin in heavy armor and 1 rank in tumble will get the same benefit as say a Monk with no armor and say 50 ranks in tumble. How is this balanced? The Paladin already has a significant advantage in damage resistance anyway now they get to dodge like the light armored characters purpose built for that? To be fair if you keep this (seems youre going to unfortunately)the dodge bonus should be 1% per tumble or something like that. that way people who build for it get the benefit. also I was wondering what the max number of charges is going to be and what is the reduced recharge rate? is it going to be so people are going to maintain at least 1 charge most of the time? if so....yeah nobody will exploit that..
To be fair, this isn't really a build benefit. It's a player skill benefit for being able to time it right to make use of the one second dodge window
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
Well at this point you're just attacking increasingly trivial details, not the actual substance of my argument... Which is a bad faith argument like all yours have been, but not a useful one for the devs to hear, so I won't say anything more than simply "false" and "no"
It's not trivial details. It's the justifications you cite for your position.
If a dev were to read this conversation they would see that your position is justified by the following:
1. More xp/min is always better.
2. If players use it it must be good for the game.
3. All players should be able to teleport to the nearest mob when OOC and all future quests should me one room fights.

I don't think that would be very useful for your position either.

However, I've challenged you to make a positive case for the status quo, and you've dodged the question every time. You certainly seem very sure of your position, so if you want to actually provide some of those "gameplay implications" so they can be defended or refuted, that would be useful to explore

I have made my case and your "exploration" was literally dismissing it by stating "that's not objective".
Id glady get back to it but it seems pointless when you hold your opinion as the objective truth and maintain that other opinions "carry no weight".
 

festasha

Well-known member
Stormcleave was an excellent example of having to run for ages without fighting. I do think the game should have extra speed for when people are not in combat or joining a quest late. Dungeon alert slows people down so why can't zero mob agro speed players up?
 

droid327

Well-known member
I don't want movement speed to jump up and down when entering and exiting combat. I don't want to be practically forced to push a "speed" button at every point outside of combat. I want movement speed to be part of character build design.

It wouldnt, it'd be a button you could press when you wanted to go faster, and only while you wanted to go faster, like Tumble was.

You're not forced to. If others are doing it, then they're choosing to, and they should have the choice if there's no other reason not to (again, if everyone's doing it, then that shows that people want to go fast, and you're in the minority if you dont)...and, honestly, pressing a button is not a terrible thing to ask someone to do while playing a video game.

Why? That's just an opinion, not an argument. OOC move speed is not related to skillful gameplay in any way. DDO doesnt have any other tradeoffs between non-skill QOL stats and challenge-based efficacy - you cant trade off AP or feats for +% XP or +% item drop rates, etc., like you can in other games. When your overall progress in the game is gated by your ability to manage the challenge of the game (ie combat, in DDO), then saying "you must give up efficacy for QOL" is ultimately creating a non-choice, by saying you have to go slower if you want to go faster.

The game is about combat, not about clear times - clear times are simply a metric for your overall combat efficacy.
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
It wouldnt, it'd be a button you could press when you wanted to go faster, and only while you wanted to go faster, like Tumble was.

You're not forced to. If others are doing it, then they're choosing to, and they should have the choice if there's no other reason not to (again, if everyone's doing it, then that shows that people want to go fast, and you're in the minority if you dont)...and, honestly, pressing a button is not a terrible thing to ask someone to do while playing a video game.
Obviously you would not literally be forced to. But you would not be able to keep up if you didn't and you would handicap yourself if not doing it. In my opinion that is a terrible mechanic for something so trivial as traversing forward.

(again, if everyone's doing it, then that shows that people want to go fast, and you're in the minority if you dont)
Again, that everyone's doing it does not mean it's good for the game. You have already admited that justification is not valid.

Why? That's just an opinion, not an argument. OOC move speed is not related to skillful gameplay in any way. DDO doesnt have any other tradeoffs between non-skill QOL stats and challenge-based efficacy - you cant trade off AP or feats for +% XP or +% item drop rates, etc., like you can in other games. When your overall progress in the game is gated by your ability to manage the challenge of the game (ie combat, in DDO), then saying "you must give up efficacy for QOL" is ultimately creating a non-choice, by saying you have to go slower if you want to go faster.
It's not more of an opinion than your poisiton. Movement speed is a premium stat in DDO that have significant combat effects and you have to give something up in order to increase it above certain threshholds. The non-choice of "efficiacy for QOL" does not exist.

The game is about combat, not about clear times - clear times are simply a metric for your overall combat efficacy.
The game about more than combat.
 

droid327

Well-known member
It's not more of an opinion than your poisiton. Movement speed is a premium stat in DDO that have significant combat effects and you have to give something up in order to increase it above certain threshholds. The non-choice of "efficiacy for QOL" does not exist.

The game about more than combat.

You're pointing out the status quo, but not actually making an argument to defend it

And, no, it really isnt. If you take the combat out of the game, there really isnt anything left besides doing puzzles and walking forward, and RNG rolls. Everything revolves around winning combat, avoiding combat, or getting ready for combat.

I think the devs need to always have that in mind, if they're going to properly develop and balance the game
 

Frybri73

Member
To be fair, this isn't really a build benefit. It's a player skill benefit for being able to time it right to make use of the one second dodge window
my whole point is It should be based on both. It is now for me. I need to time it right and have the skill points to avoid getting hit. In my opinion a fighter, Paladin etc. in full plate should not get the same avoidance maneuver as a monk, ranger or rogue for example that is designed to do that... their armor is their protection. And im still wondering the offset on charges vs refresh rate. will it be such that people will be able to build up enough charges that come back quick enough as to have at least 1 charge almost all of the time. see the obvious exploit there if so? I dont use tumble as my form of locomotion as he put it but it is an integral part of how I and others enjoy the game. If people using it to move, which I have yet to see btw, causes issues with game performance then by all means fix it which is where I say cap the speed so people stop doing it. if its just "we dont like that".. the reason given then I say "tough.. we do" and we pay ..or until recently .. paid you to play the game. Not just this but as a whole the update is entirely ruining the game for myself and others. Theres lot of pushback on this one ..the devs admitt that. I think this one is going to cost them mightily.. whole lot of "im done with this" and "unsubing" posts
 

Tuxedomanwashere

Well-known member
Howdy all! With Update 66 we're going to be adjusting the gameplay flow and mechanical benefits of Tumbling.

Design Philosophy​

So, to begin - Tumble was never meant to replace your standard methods of locomotion. Tumble is instead meant to allow characters to react to telegraphed damage or traps to escape from certain doom. However, thanks to our efforts to making tumbling more reactive and more fun, we inadvertently introduced specific scenarios in which a character tumbling can generate a pretty impressive (if unintended) amount of land speed.

Our first attempt at fixing this problem was to simply remove the experimental controls, locking players to the old Tumble flow. That being said, after noodling on it as a team, we realized that while this might solve the locomotion problem, it made tumbling less reactive AND didn't do anything to actually help Tumble be relevant in combat. To that end, we think we've come up with a solution that preserves the active nature of Tumble, prevents players from using it to generate too much speed, AND lets them use it to prevent damage on their own terms.

Tumble Charges​

First thing's first - Experimental Tumble Controls has been re-enabled for this preview. Assuming nothing seriously explodes, we expect it to stay enabled going forward.

Tumbling is now limited by charges. If you don't have at least one Tumble charge, you cannot tumble. By default, you have 2 maximum Tumble charges, and one Tumble charge returns every 8 seconds.

Certain feats and abilities can boost your maximum Tumble charges and quicken their rate of return. For this preview, the following abilities have been adjusted:
  • Thief-Acrobat's 3rd core, Tumbler, now grants +1 maximum Tumble charge.
  • The Mobility feat now grants +1 maximum Tumble charge.
You may view your Tumble charges by holding your Block key, default left shift. Each green pip displayed represents one Tumble charge.

Tumble Benefits​

Tumble now grants you defensive benefits during part of the tumble animation. These bonuses only apply if you are actually tumbling - the shuffle half-step won't trigger these bonuses.

For this preview, Tumbling now grants the following:
  • 95% uncapped dodge for 1 second.
  • A bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to your Tumble skill for 1 second.
Note that these bonuses apply to you from the moment you begin your Tumble, regardless of how long the animation takes to complete.

We hope very much that these changes further encourage players to actively tumble to dodge large attacks or dangerous traps, and look forward to your passionate feedback!
I think it would be thematic for Monks, Bards, and Rangers/Dark Hunters should also have access to extra tumble charges. They are all nimble classes that are also more reliant on evading attacks than taking them in the face, and it would make sense to have it in something like Ninja Spy, Swashbuckler, and Deepwood Stalker.
 
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