U66 Preview 2: Tumble Changes

[Rosze]

Just to confirm... tumble (including the benefits offered) is not going to be restricted by armor type. Correct?

So... A tank, wearing heavy armor and a tower shield is going against a boss :
- Intimidate
- Tumble (my heavy armor/ tower shield wielding tank now has 95% dodge).
... wait and then repeat... 5 times (Mobility of course).
After 1 second without 95% dodge I have gained another Tumble charge and do it again.

Six out of seven seconds my tank has 95% dodge. The entire time the rest of the party has been beating on the back of the boss. If that still isn't enough, I can then pop my Hood of Unrest and continue to intimidate until the party has finished the boss off.

If tumble is not going to be restricted by armor type, perhaps the dodge bonus should be. 95%/ 75%/ 50%/ 25% for Cloth/ Light/ Medium/ Heavy respectively. Although the thought of tumbling in heavy armor is still ludicrous.

You could alternatively make it so that tumble charges take longer to recharge with heavy and medium armour

 

[droid327]

Just to confirm... tumble (including the benefits offered) is not going to be restricted by armor type. Correct?

So... A tank, wearing heavy armor and a tower shield is going against a boss :
- Intimidate
- Tumble (my heavy armor/ tower shield wielding tank now has 95% dodge).
... wait and then repeat... 5 times (Mobility of course).
After 1 second without 95% dodge I have gained another Tumble charge and do it again.

Six out of seven seconds my tank has 95% dodge. The entire time the rest of the party has been beating on the back of the boss. If that still isn't enough, I can then pop my Hood of Unrest and continue to intimidate until the party has finished the boss off.

If tumble is not going to be restricted by armor type, perhaps the dodge bonus should be. 95%/ 75%/ 50%/ 25% for Cloth/ Light/ Medium/ Heavy respectively. Although the thought of tumbling in heavy armor is still ludicrous.

People in heavy armor are capable of jumping out of the way of stuff too

There's already armor check penalty to simulate the difficulty of doing it in heavier armor

 

[Mand O'Lin]

People in heavy armor are capable of jumping out of the way of stuff too

There's already armor check penalty to simulate the difficulty of doing it in heavier armor

Moving out of the way of stuff is not the same thing as tumbling. Further, the idea of heavy armor is less about dodge and more about just taking the hit and brushing it off.

Armor check penalty is far too easy to overcome. All you need is a +20 tumble augment and you can overcome pretty much all armor check penalties combined... Perhaps you could find a way to intentionally gimp your toon enough to exceed that +20, but it would take work.

The notion of a character kitted out in full plate and carrying a tower shield doing ninja dives and becoming virtually untouchable for a full second is ridiculous. This type of true mobility needs to be reserved for those in light or (preferably) no armor.

 

[Mand O'Lin]

You could alternatively make it so that tumble charges take longer to recharge with heavy and medium armour

The problem is less the charge rate and more the 95% uncapped dodge. With a slower charge rate you still go into combat with 5 seconds of 95% dodge. With good dps, the combat is over before that... except for bosses when you can pop the Hood of Unrest.

Just imagine... The tank is in full plate and carrying a character height shield, somehow does a ninja leaping roll, bounces right back up on their feet and then miraculously dodges 95% of all incoming attacks.
Maybe an acrobat or monk in cloth armor, but a ponderous tin can?

 

[droid327]

Moving out of the way of stuff is not the same thing as tumbling. Further, the idea of heavy armor is less about dodge and more about just taking the hit and brushing it off.

Armor check penalty is far too easy to overcome. All you need is a +20 tumble augment and you can overcome pretty much all armor check penalties combined... Perhaps you could find a way to intentionally gimp your toon enough to exceed that +20, but it would take work.

The notion of a character kitted out in full plate and carrying a tower shield doing ninja dives and becoming virtually untouchable for a full second is ridiculous. This type of true mobility needs to be reserved for those in light or (preferably) no armor.

I think you're underestimating how much mobility real-life plate armor actually provides

There's a video of someone tumbling in full plate at 0:31

 

[LouDaCrisp]

Any word on if this new tumble is changed in town? Or if it works if you have no ranks?

The Tumble changes are in effect while in town.
You need to at least be able to roll to be able you receive the 95% dodge. The sad floor shuffle does not count.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Maybe an acrobat or monk in cloth armor, but a ponderous tin can?

Magic!

 

[LouDaCrisp]

Because, again, the players spoke with their shift buttons. When given the choice, people chose tumble speed. If they didnt...this thread wouldnt exist

I don't think this is a choice. There is no opportunity cost to tumbling for movement meanwhile there is an opportunity cost to not doing it. Also, even if you didn't want to tumble for movement, you were forced to as soon as anyone else did it, otherwise, you wouldn't get to play the game.

So... A tank, wearing heavy armor and a tower shield is going against a boss :
- Intimidate
- Tumble (my heavy armor/ tower shield wielding tank now has 95% dodge).
... wait and then repeat... 5 times (Mobility of course).
After 1 second without 95% dodge I have gained another Tumble charge and do it again.

If there's a tank that can tumble mid-combat, and not move/reposition a boss and not kill or piss off someone in the party, They deserve to do so. As far as I know, the only boss you can do that with is Death's Teeth while the raid is running around killing the skeletons. Everywhere else in the game, I think tanks are irrelevant because players can delete enemies very quickly.

Edit: Just for clarification, Tanks are absolutely required for Raids and even some R10 quests, but for R7 and below, player damage is too high to need one, imo

 

[Guntango]

I think tanks are irrelevant because players can delete enemies very quickly.

I'm sure you're right at lower difficulty, until you hit a difficulty where you become very wrong, very quickly.

 

[Frybri73]

Just to confirm... tumble (including the benefits offered) is not going to be restricted by armor type. Correct?

So... A tank, wearing heavy armor and a tower shield is going against a boss :
- Intimidate
- Tumble (my heavy armor/ tower shield wielding tank now has 95% dodge).
... wait and then repeat... 5 times (Mobility of course).
After 1 second without 95% dodge I have gained another Tumble charge and do it again.

Six out of seven seconds my tank has 95% dodge. The entire time the rest of the party has been beating on the back of the boss. If that still isn't enough, I can then pop my Hood of Unrest and continue to intimidate until the party has finished the boss off.

If tumble is not going to be restricted by armor type, perhaps the dodge bonus should be. 95%/ 75%/ 50%/ 25% for Cloth/ Light/ Medium/ Heavy respectively. Although the thought of tumbling in heavy armor is still ludicrous.

I wholeheartedly agree and said as much earlier. The thought of a full plate wearing tower shield carrying paladin rolling through a trap or whatever is utterly ridiculous. They already enjoy significant advantages in mitigation. to be fair and balanced Theye'd have to give the unarmored monk the same prr/mrr/dr as said paladin. that's sheer nonsense. if people are straining the servers using tumble to move..i don't.. wouldn't the easy fix be to cap the speed increase rather than implement a whole new system that, lets face it, wont work the way they thought it would and will obviously be exploited(like you pointed out and I said earlier too) if they insist on this change..seems they do, the equitable thing would to make it 1% dodge per tumble rank. that way the people who actually build for it get the most benefit.. which is how it should be.. Not everyone should get or be able to do everything they keep blurring the lines between classes(not everyone should use rez scrolls either)... Its kind of the whole point of playing the game at least for me.. Make the character I want and see what I can do with them with their strengths and deficiencies.

 

[seph1roth5]

Just to confirm... tumble (including the benefits offered) is not going to be restricted by armor type. Correct?

So... A tank, wearing heavy armor and a tower shield is going against a boss :
- Intimidate
- Tumble (my heavy armor/ tower shield wielding tank now has 95% dodge).
... wait and then repeat... 5 times (Mobility of course).
After 1 second without 95% dodge I have gained another Tumble charge and do it again.

Six out of seven seconds my tank has 95% dodge. The entire time the rest of the party has been beating on the back of the boss. If that still isn't enough, I can then pop my Hood of Unrest and continue to intimidate until the party has finished the boss off.

If tumble is not going to be restricted by armor type, perhaps the dodge bonus should be. 95%/ 75%/ 50%/ 25% for Cloth/ Light/ Medium/ Heavy respectively. Although the thought of tumbling in heavy armor is still ludicrous.

Immersion and roleplaying are nice for people I guess, but shouldn't matter for mechanics. Otherwise we should have stamina meters and have to rest after swinging 20 times, and all be dead from not eating/drinking. If mechanics ever don't make sense to you, just imagine a wizard did it.

That said, I don't see how you're getting 6 out of 7 seconds uptime.

 

[droid327]

I don't think this is a choice. There is no opportunity cost to tumbling for movement meanwhile there is an opportunity cost to not doing it. Also, even if you didn't want to tumble for movement, you were forced to as soon as anyone else did it, otherwise, you wouldn't get to play the game.

Well you can solo and play at whatever pace you like... If your only complaint is about group play, then I don't think it's fair to force players to slow down to suit your preferred pace, when you could speed up literally with only the touch a button.

Plus you could say the same about 30% run speed gear, and that hasnt broken the game (though I'd call for getting rid of run speed gear and enhancements and just make it full base run speed plus a turbo button)

 

[Ellisaria]

If there's a tank that can tumble mid-combat, and not move/reposition a boss and not kill or piss off someone in the party, They deserve to do so.

Tank positions themselves with their back against a wall (like in VoD) or pillar. Tank back rolls into wall to gain dodge bonus. Boss doesn't move. Sounds a bit more entertaining than sitting there spamming intimidate off cd and shield blocking the whole time and another tool in the more 'aggressive' (more active/less bulky) dps or heal tank builds can use to be more efficient.

I think tanks are irrelevant because players can delete enemies very quickly.

Again, those raid bosses are where I really appreciate the tanks keeping said bosses from tearing through the party, and they (bosses) tend to stick around for a bit

 

[Falkor]

It seems tanks are only useful for raids. While they can be beneficial for some R10 questing, they aren't mission critical. If I see a quest LFM for under r10 asking for a tank, I know they are a new player.

There are raids that cannot be run without a tank, especially as the difficulty is increased.

 

[LouDaCrisp]

I'm sure you're right at lower difficulty, until you hit a difficulty where you become very wrong, very quickly.

Again, those raid bosses are where I really appreciate the tanks keeping said bosses from tearing through the party, and they (bosses) tend to stick around for a bit

Sorry for not being clear, you still absolutely still need tanks for raids and some R10 dungeons. Sorry if that wasn't very clear in my previous post .

 

[Mand O'Lin]

Immersion and roleplaying are nice for people I guess, but shouldn't matter for mechanics. Otherwise we should have stamina meters and have to rest after swinging 20 times, and all be dead from not eating/drinking. If mechanics ever don't make sense to you, just imagine a wizard did it.

That said, I don't see how you're getting 6 out of 7 seconds uptime.

Everybody gets 4 tumble charges, mobility adds 1 for 5. You get a recharge every 6 seconds.
So... for the first 7 seconds.
Tumble (charge 1) - 95% dodge for 1 second
Tumble (charge 2) - 95% dodge for 1 second
Tumble (charge 3) - 95% dodge for 1 second
Tumble (charge 4) - 95% dodge for 1 second
Tumble (mobility) - 95% dodge for 1 second
1 second without 95% dodge after which 6 seconds have elapsed and you now get a charge back
Tumble (re-charge) - 95% dodge for 1 second

At which point another character could intimidate, get aggro and start the whole process over again.

I am sure players would never take advantage of this.

 

[Tonquin]

Hi all! Thank you all so much for your lovely and passionate feedback. Quick update on this mechanic:

We've slightly tweaked the eligibility for the Dodge bonus from Tumbling. Now, when you tumble while wearing Medium Armor, you gain +75% dodge. Furthermore, tumbling in Heavy Armor will now grant you +50% dodge. Tumbling in light or no armor will continue to grant you +95% dodge. We hope this adjustment helps preserve the disparity in gameplay between armor styles by helping lightly armored characters feel a lot more nimble while dodging around.

Everybody gets 4 tumble charges, mobility adds 1 for 5. You get a recharge every 6 seconds.
So... for the first 7 seconds.
Tumble (charge 1) - 95% dodge for 1 second
Tumble (charge 2) - 95% dodge for 1 second
Tumble (charge 3) - 95% dodge for 1 second
Tumble (charge 4) - 95% dodge for 1 second
Tumble (mobility) - 95% dodge for 1 second
1 second without 95% dodge after which 6 seconds have elapsed and you now get a charge back
Tumble (re-charge) - 95% dodge for 1 second

At which point another character could intimidate, get aggro and start the whole process over again.

I am sure players would never take advantage of this.

By default, players start with 2 charges. Those charges return once every 8 seconds. You can get two additional charges (for a maximum of 4) - one from the feat Mobility and one from Thief-Acrobat's 3rd core.

 

[Mand O'Lin]

Magic!

Yeah... but that excuse wear thin. What is the magic bonus on my armor which allow me to jump around with the dexterity of a monkey? If magic allows me to be that nimble and dextrous in plate armor while carrying a tower shield, why doesn't evasion work while wearing plate and a tower shield? There needs to be some level of logic and reason in the ruleset.
The other option is for the developers to simply answer ever single complaint with one simple answer: "Magic!"

 

[rabidfox]

Everybody gets 4 tumble charges, mobility adds 1 for 5. You get a recharge every 6 seconds.
So... for the first 7 seconds.
Tumble (charge 1) - 95% dodge for 1 second
Tumble (charge 2) - 95% dodge for 1 second
Tumble (charge 3) - 95% dodge for 1 second
Tumble (charge 4) - 95% dodge for 1 second
Tumble (mobility) - 95% dodge for 1 second
1 second without 95% dodge after which 6 seconds have elapsed and you now get a charge back
Tumble (re-charge) - 95% dodge for 1 second

At which point another character could intimidate, get aggro and start the whole process over again.

I am sure players would never take advantage of this.

And the math failes given...

Tumbling is now limited by charges. If you don't have at least one Tumble charge, you cannot tumble. By default, you have 2 maximum Tumble charges, and one Tumble charge returns every 8 seconds.

You added in multiple charges into things that we don't get; so of course it looks like it's infinite charges when you doubled the based number.

 

[Ellisaria]

Everybody gets 4 tumble charges, mobility adds 1 for 5. You get a recharge every 6 seconds.

Oh was it changed? I thought it was 2 charges, recharge 8 seconds, certain cores give +1, mobility gives +1, cap of 5.
Edit: Ignore, as Tonquin's post while I was typing this clarifies.