U66 Preview 2: Tumble Changes

[Mand O'Lin]

And the math failes given...



You added in multiple charges into things that we don't get; so of course it looks like it's infinite charges when you doubled the based number.

Mea Culpa.

I swear I read base of 4 charges and a recharge every 6 seconds.

Though the 95% dodge for a character in full plate is still silly.

 

[Mand O'Lin]

Hi all! Thank you all so much for your lovely and passionate feedback. Quick update on this mechanic:

We've slightly tweaked the eligibility for the Dodge bonus from Tumbling. Now, when you tumble while wearing Medium Armor, you gain +75% dodge. Furthermore, tumbling in Heavy Armor will now grant you +50% dodge. Tumbling in light or no armor will continue to grant you +95% dodge. We hope this adjustment helps preserve the disparity in gameplay between armor styles by helping lightly armored characters feel a lot more nimble while dodging around.



By default, players start with 2 charges. Those charges return once every 8 seconds. You can get two additional charges (for a maximum of 4) - one from the feat Mobility and one from Thief-Acrobat's 3rd core.

Again, I am sorry... Somehow I read 4 base and a recharge every 6 seconds... though I do not know how I misread it that badly.

 

[rabidfox]

We've slightly tweaked the eligibility for the Dodge bonus from Tumbling. Now, when you tumble while wearing Medium Armor, you gain +75% dodge. Furthermore, tumbling in Heavy Armor will now grant you +50% dodge. Tumbling in light or no armor will continue to grant you +95% dodge. We hope this adjustment helps preserve the disparity in gameplay between armor styles by helping lightly armored characters feel a lot more nimble while dodging around.

I suspect it'll create the issue where people will feel they have to run armor types specifically for the dodge bonuses. People already wear certain armor types because of current dodge caps on live with how good it is; linking armor type into tumble will just force this onto more areas of gameplay.

 

[rabidfox]

If going the route of dodge based off armor then I'd suggest X% dodge by default based off armor type + Y% dodge per Z tumble skill up to 95% total. So lighter armor is easier to get initial good dodge but all armors can eventually hit the same cap with effort by putting points into tumble.

 

[l_remmie]

The armor dodge changes seem fair to me.

Tumble is a worthwhile skill now and fun to use. People WANT to use it and invest in it to make it better. You opened up a fresh can of design space. Looking in the enhancement trees will take some time but you are working on the shadowdancer ED right now. How about a tumble charge or 1sec cooldown in core3 there? People will love it.

 

[Lotoc]

Hi all! Thank you all so much for your lovely and passionate feedback. Quick update on this mechanic:

We've slightly tweaked the eligibility for the Dodge bonus from Tumbling. Now, when you tumble while wearing Medium Armor, you gain +75% dodge. Furthermore, tumbling in Heavy Armor will now grant you +50% dodge. Tumbling in light or no armor will continue to grant you +95% dodge. We hope this adjustment helps preserve the disparity in gameplay between armor styles by helping lightly armored characters feel a lot more nimble while dodging around.



By default, players start with 2 charges. Those charges return once every 8 seconds. You can get two additional charges (for a maximum of 4) - one from the feat Mobility and one from Thief-Acrobat's 3rd core.

Would it be a bad suggestion that the thief acrobat capstone or t5 get something like "Your tumble recharge rate is reduced to 6 seconds" or "Your bonuses from tumbling last 50% longer"? It's a build where you want to be proactively tumbling to maintain certain effects which eats into your ability to use tumble defensively with a charge system.

 

[Mindos]

Just give me an Options panel setting: Allow tumble even without charges. You will not receive a dodge benefit when you tumble without a charge.

That's it. Let the player take responsibility. Don't root me to the ground whenever a timer isn't ready. Let me make decisions and tradeoffs.

 

[Ahpuch]

Hi all! Thank you all so much for your lovely and passionate feedback. Quick update on this mechanic:

We've slightly tweaked the eligibility for the Dodge bonus from Tumbling. Now, when you tumble while wearing Medium Armor, you gain +75% dodge. Furthermore, tumbling in Heavy Armor will now grant you +50% dodge. Tumbling in light or no armor will continue to grant you +95% dodge. We hope this adjustment helps preserve the disparity in gameplay between armor styles by helping lightly armored characters feel a lot more nimble while dodging around.

So if you are only looking for the dodge benefit there is no point in more than 1 point into Tumble correct? This seemed like a nice opportunity to reward those characters willing to put points into tumble.

 

[Zuldar]

We've slightly tweaked the eligibility for the Dodge bonus from Tumbling. Now, when you tumble while wearing Medium Armor, you gain +75% dodge. Furthermore, tumbling in Heavy Armor will now grant you +50% dodge. Tumbling in light or no armor will continue to grant you +95% dodge. We hope this adjustment helps preserve the disparity in gameplay between armor styles by helping lightly armored characters feel a lot more nimble while dodging around.

How about rather than a static amount you base it off the armor check penalty? Perhaps add the armor check penalty to the cooldown or reduce the dodge bonus by twice the armor check penalty similar to how it affects the swim skill.

It would reward builds that focus on reducing the armor check penalty while adding some design space for armor types that are clunkier than normal with a higher armor check penalty but with some bonus. Possible using adamantine for that purpose with some sort of rework.

 

[Lotoc]

Just give me an Options panel setting: Allow tumble even without charges. You will not receive a dodge benefit when you tumble without a charge.

That's it. Let the player take responsibility. Don't root me to the ground whenever a timer isn't ready. Let me make decisions and tradeoffs.

the main point of these changes is to kill the Tumble meta while making tumble itself a more engaging mechanic.
Just letting people spam tumble as we do currently is the furthest thing from what SSG wants to do and this tumble overhaul is the compromise between fluid tumble controls existing and not existing.

 

[LouDaCrisp]

This might be a late request, but since tumble is on a charge system, would it be possible to ask for the buffs in Core 5 and 6 for Thief Acrobat to get a duration boost, since there's now a limit on how often you can activate these benefits? Maybe from 12 sec to 16 secs.

 

[Dandonk]

I suspect it'll create the issue where people will feel they have to run armor types specifically for the dodge bonuses. People already wear certain armor types because of current dodge caps on live with how good it is; linking armor type into tumble will just force this onto more areas of gameplay.

This seems like an issue to me, at least. Light and medium are already heavily incentivized due to dodge cap, and this will make light/cloth even more appealing. I don't think this is a good thing.

Now, I understand that it fits thematically. It really does. But from an armor type balance point of view, it only makes the existing problem even more pronounced.

 

[Cult of the Ocelot]

Hi all! Thank you all so much for your lovely and passionate feedback. Quick update on this mechanic:

We've slightly tweaked the eligibility for the Dodge bonus from Tumbling. Now, when you tumble while wearing Medium Armor, you gain +75% dodge. Furthermore, tumbling in Heavy Armor will now grant you +50% dodge. Tumbling in light or no armor will continue to grant you +95% dodge. We hope this adjustment helps preserve the disparity in gameplay between armor styles by helping lightly armored characters feel a lot more nimble while dodging around.



By default, players start with 2 charges. Those charges return once every 8 seconds. You can get two additional charges (for a maximum of 4) - one from the feat Mobility and one from Thief-Acrobat's 3rd core.

I really like that change, since heavy armored tanks get some really outstanding PRR/MRR/AC already. I've got a SF tank in an outfit, so this feels like a unique bonus for damage mitigation for my build while not hosing more heavily armored builds.

 

[Ellisaria]

Off the top of my head and from my limited build experience, I can't think of one that could use full plate that wasn't better served (defensively) in medium armor (higher dodge cap from higher max dex bonus and still no mrr cap). Same reason I preferred heavy shield over tower shield (dex bonus). Tumble buff granting a lower dodge bonus based on armor weight is going to be one reinforcement for Medium > Heavy, Light Armor (if you value evasion and don't mind a capped MRR) > Cloth (worn because build requires centering/ASF restrictions).

 

[Dandonk]

I really like that change, since heavy armored tanks get some really outstanding PRR/MRR/AC already. I've got a SF tank in an outfit, so this feels like a unique bonus for damage mitigation for my build while not hosing more heavily armored builds.

The problem is, for most builds except the very most specialized ones, AC is pointless at endgame. I usually have anywhere from 170 to 220 AC, and it makes no difference that I can tell.
PRR? Yay, 25 more PRR. It's not "nothing", but it's certainly not over-the-top-awesome, either.
MRR? Well, yes, MRR is nice, but still...

On the other hand, 45% extra uncapped dodge? That's very very VERY good. That's some serious survivability, and on top of the dodge advantage that lighter armored builds already have.

 

[Cult of the Ocelot]

The problem is, for most builds except the very most specialized ones, AC is pointless at endgame. I usually have anywhere from 170 to 220 AC, and it makes no difference that I can tell.
PRR? Yay, 25 more PRR. It's not "nothing", but it's certainly not over-the-top-awesome, either.
MRR? Well, yes, MRR is nice, but still...

On the other hand, 45% extra uncapped dodge? That's very very VERY good. That's some serious survivability, and on top of the dodge advantage that lighter armored builds already have.

I understand your point, which is why I was really just referencing tanks. I don't have as much experience with the nuance of light/medium/heavy armored DPS builds.

 

[Dandonk]

I understand your point, which is why I was really just referencing tanks. I don't have as much experience with the nuance of light/medium/heavy armored DPS builds.

Fair enough, though I do think most tanks would at least go for medium instead of heavy. The dodge difference is simply too great to pass up.

 

[PraetorPlato]

Fair enough, though I do think most tanks would at least go for medium instead of heavy. The dodge difference is simply too great to pass up.

For raiding specifically, you kind of want to go either low or *really* high on dodge—at a certain point of healing, there's no practical difference between 10 and 50% dodge, because the chance you'll get killed by spike damage over 5 minutes, say, is similar. Questing though, I agree that medium is looking better and better

 

[wdhvenrick]

The armor changes are bad for medium armor. There really isn't a purpose is using medium armor over light even for barbarians. And especially not for tanks. Medium being made more worse than light is not a good change.

 

[Kitty2Meow]

Have not read through the whole thread yet, but it is possible to,
1. for every 15 Tumble points, add +1 maximum Charge; but hard capped to 10 Charges maximum
2. for every 20 Tumble points, decrease 1 second of Charge Time; but hard capped it to no less then 3 seconds