U66 Preview 2: Tumble Changes

[droid327]

Much like the experimental tumble was added, it could be the case of adding a checkbox or toggle for easy access if the thought of having to press a button is too much to bother with. Toggle on you will auto increase speed while not in combat, toggle off, time to go smell the daisies and run at a relaxed pace. Everyone a winner.

I think the best design is pretty much what Exp Tumble was, except on purpose instead of on accident:

A button you can press to increase runspeed to "tumble speed" while its held down. It doesnt work while in combat, but out of combat you can activate it whenever you want, immediately, and then let go whenever you dont, and there's no limitation on charges or duration or cooldown.

If you really dont want it, just never press it - heck, you can unmap it entirely. But then its available to everyone, and you dont have anyone complaining about weird animations breaking their immersion, or having to spam a button.

 

[droid327]

I want movement speed to be part of character build design.

I know you do, but there's no objective gameplay argument for that. As evidenced by all your arguments just being reductio ad absurdum

I could say "I want faster loading times to be a part of character build design" and then put an arbitrary 2 minute login delay unless you spend AP or feats on the "faster login" stat. That's obviously not related at all to what character builds are about...but essentially that's what sprint boost is, just a way to reduce an arbitrary time sink designed into the game.

 

[festasha]

I think the best design is pretty much what Exp Tumble was, except on purpose instead of on accident:

A button you can press to increase runspeed to "tumble speed" while its held down. It doesnt work while in combat, but out of combat you can activate it whenever you want, immediately, and then let go whenever you dont, and there's no limitation on charges or duration or cooldown.

If you really dont want it, just never press it - heck, you can unmap it entirely. But then its available to everyone, and you dont have anyone complaining about weird animations breaking their immersion, or having to spam a button.

I really enjoyed the experimental tumble and used it a lot even while in combat to evade mobs hitting me and the pleasure of not having to walk at normal speed while running down empty areas of already cleared dungeons. Unfortunately there are many of us that have to suffer cause a few don't like the mechanics and immersion breaking.

Lets hope we can get an alternative that saves us time running empty expanses of dungeons and a way to keep up with those who invest in speed boosts for melee combat, at the least then the barb won't have to wait for the healer and the rest of the party to arrive.

 

[Joanna Drecas]

I honestly hate this change, I have several characters whose survival is built upon not getting hit, on their ability to constantly evade enemies blows by well timed defensive tumbling, this will break those characters.

 

[Shear-buckler]

I know you do, but there's no objective gameplay argument for that. As evidenced by all your arguments just being reductio ad absurdum

I could say "I want faster loading times to be a part of character build design" and then put an arbitrary 2 minute login delay unless you spend AP or feats on the "faster login" stat. That's obviously not related at all to what character builds are about...but essentially that's what sprint boost is, just a way to reduce an arbitrary time sink designed into the game.

You asked for justification, I provided three. I even used the term" I want" to signal that it was merely my opinion.

 

[mikarddo]

I know you do, but there's no objective gameplay argument for that. As evidenced by all your arguments just being reductio ad absurdum

I could say "I want faster loading times to be a part of character build design" and then put an arbitrary 2 minute login delay unless you spend AP or feats on the "faster login" stat. That's obviously not related at all to what character builds are about...but essentially that's what sprint boost is, just a way to reduce an arbitrary time sink designed into the game.

You really are a funny one.

Whatever arguments others come up with you simply dismiss as "not objective" yet you fail to see that the arguments you come up with yourself also fall on the very same criteria.

Further, you accuse others of "reductio ad adsurdum" and counter with a 100% argument of your own of that very kind.

The login process is not something that is part of the adventure world - actual characters do not "log in", that is something that player does - the characters live in their world and know nothing about logging in or logging out. Running inside the world, on the other hand, very much is something the characters do, and certainly not something the players do (very few of us would be running and tumbling for hours on end if that was the case).

Most entertaining.

 

[woq]

If experimental tumble for naysayers felt annoying to use, people felt forced and it felt immersion breaking and that speed was excessive;

And for the yaysayers loving it feel the need for higher MS in OoC situations in situations where they're wandering around in a quest they don't know and end up walking back and forth a lot or do a quest for 200th time;

A cross solution:

You can expend Tumble Charges to gain a burst of speed upon consuming Tumble charges when out of combat. Say, 15% untyped speed for 4 seconds per tumble charge consumed. While sprinting in this way your search and spot checks are halved.

Net effect: good uptime on 15% untyped (untyped because action speed would step on bards and cheerful aoe action speed users toes) speed for OoC situations that consume tumble charges so you can't keep it up with 100% uptime AND then tumble through traps and it would leave you vulnerable compared to people who use it more conservatively for defensive purposes upon facing new spawns/event triggers.

I guess those who will miss the autobot turbospeed in quests would want /something/ like the above?

Either way, I'm perfectly satisfied with the proposed changes from Devs. People already progress through quests very fast with wings, leaps, spring attacks, snowslides and action speed boosts and saying faster movement is simply QoL is objectively false. Speed, kiting potential and maneuverability is absolutely actual player power and saying otherwise is simply wrong or lacking in imagination. Even besides that, adding much more to that would leave newer/slower players even further in the dust in any group quest environment, even if they had access to the same system they just don't navigate the quests as well and widening that gap of good maneuverability and speed is (imo) not a good thing. I really do not think that we should be going at least much faster than we currently have access to without experimental tumble.

Personally I would not be opposed to having bard movement tied to some untyped/music form increase instead of action boost and giving people access to action boost speed a bit more leniently though but that's outside the scope of this thread.

 

[Rosze]

Raid tanks doing tumbles every time its off cool down for the 95% uncapped dodge sounds like an unintended use for me. Not really an exploit at all so posting it here. Just make sure to have low tumble skill so you dont really go far.

I suggest limiting the dodge and reflex bonus to light and no armor and to make the dodge bonus depend on tumble skill as well.

Getting 95% uncapped dodge in heavy armor with low tumble skill sounds like the opposite of what skilllessly rolling around in heavy armor would do for you

Using tumble to dodge attacks sounds like united use of tumble?. Id disagree. Making it 95% in heavy seems maybe bit off. Maybe 55% in Heavy and 75% in medium. I could see that you could bring that up by investing in tumble on a tank. It seems like a fun skill for the tanks and actually make tanking bit more interesting than auto attack and intimidation when of timer.

 

[Rosze]

Yeah the idea is really cool, but the whole 1s thing with how random lag is, not sure how useful it's gonna be in practice. Maybe make it 1.5 but no more then 2 tops.

Didn't it say it's a 1s buff that is active for the full tumble animation. So basically just meaning when actively in tumble you get the buff. But yea depending on lag making it slightly longer so allows some time to move and adjust after the animation is done seems good.

 

[Terpilar]

Maybe we need a Zerger universal enhancement tree, featuring Haste boost (obviously), stacking faster base move, recharges over time for the Haste boost, additional time on XP and Slayer potions, ranged door/lever/valve/trapbox interaction, reduced timers for reincarnation, reduced AS chest re-roll costs, wards against Dungeon Alerts, a "teleport me to the end boss fight" capstone and an annoying blue hedgehog pet that dazes nearby mobs with no save.

Or just allow mounts in all dungeons, any DA dismounts you, and be done with it.

Anyway, I want the experimental tumble controls back, those finally made tumble fun and natural to use in combat, until it was abused by speed addicts, denounced by short-sighted posters and nerfed by over-cautious devs. As it is now even with all enhancements to recharge time and number of charges it's barely usable.?

As was posted before, the in-combat recharge time needs to be much much lower if we want to keep a level of practicality for the intended application.

 

[Rosze]

Maybe we need a Zerger universal enhancement tree, featuring Haste boost (obviously), stacking faster base move, recharges over time for the Haste boost, additional time on XP and Slayer potions, ranged door/lever/valve/trapbox interaction, reduced timers for reincarnation, reduced AS chest re-roll costs, wards against Dungeon Alerts, a "teleport me to the end boss fight" capstone and an annoying blue hedgehog pet that dazes nearby mobs with no save.

Or just allow mounts in all dungeons, any DA dismounts you, and be done with it.

Anyway, I want the experimental tumble controls back, those finally made tumble fun and natural to use in combat, until it was abused by speed addicts, denounced by short-sighted posters and nerfed by over-cautious devs. As it is now even with all enhancements to recharge time and number of charges it's barely usable.?

As was posted before, the in-combat recharge time needs to be much much lower if we want to keep a level of practicality for the intended application.

You move move 300% faster. Your Soul lack the interest for adventure setting your max hp and sp to 1. You have 10 extra charges of haste boost. Your new speed causes every dungeon to start with red alert, but due to your lack of interest in the adventure you are immune to any slowing effect. If you spend more than 10mins in a dungeon you are teleported into a bed and breakfast in harbour shaken off your need for the little spark of adventure ready for second breakfast.

 

[Sanjo-do-gara]

hey devs, if u give us dodge in tumble than give 2sec dodge mayby ? so dash animation (low skill tumble) be like dash/side step->hit,hit->dash->hit,hit...
like ...movment in boxing, dash-> punch punch-> dash-> punch punch...but than we need i think more then 1sec dodge, after dash for hit we have less than secund +add lag yet.
and becouse ur changes are for all class, we all get same benefits for some class more then others, then even low dodge class like fighter ? with low tumble skill gonna use this very effective. pls think about this 2sec dodge for all of us.

 

[ACJ97F]

My heads up display has room for a few more pieces of data...

Yeah, I haven't seen clarification on that, but we're hoping that's only when experimental is turned on. Having one more thing we can't
turn off, like the dumb trap icons, is really too much. Not sure which designer thinks everyone wants a HUD dead-center while playing.

 

[Lazuli]

I actually agree with your overall opinion.
My preferred solution to the problem would be giving an out of combat movement speed (probably defaulting to 50% enhancement bonus - so it helps newbs without 30% striding, but still stacks with everything else in the game that boosts run speed). Maybe even allowing itemizing or changing a few enhancements to boost it to some extent.
The recent Reaper healing changes confirming DDO has a decent way to detect when a player is "out of combat", so we CAN go with that easily.

Where I disagree with that final take about design philosophy.
Corridor corner with full patrol of mobs -> turn corner, new patrol is BORING design. That's what a LOT of more modern quests are.
I remember how many complaints there were against that type of mob placement in TOEE or Slavelords.

The changes to aggro pulling means you can't just liberally place mobs all over quests either, else you pull all of them from taking a left turn.

There are quite a few quests where it might make sense to use mounts out of combat, especially all quests that take place outdoors (including underdark outdoors) or in large buildings/dungeons.

I've been saying for a while that now that the game has a way to detect that we are out of combat, it could be used to allow us to use mounts, and dismount as soon as there are mobs nearby.

Some quests where mounts don't make sense could have the current prohibition on using them, just as there are quests under a dimensional anchor.

 

[Tasha]

No pips I say.

It should be part of your skill to know how many tumbles you got in the tank.

 

[woq]

I like the idea of tumble Pips being an optional UI toggle you can move around, or tie to your character frame, or hide completely if you so choose.

I'd probably have them above my char ui frame at all times, preferably sideways. The tech to do this is used in action bars, I fail to see an issue in implementing it that way.

 

[droid327]

Whatever arguments others come up with you simply dismiss as "not objective" yet you fail to see that the arguments you come up with yourself also fall on the very same criteria.

Further, you accuse others of "reductio ad adsurdum" and counter with a 100% argument of your own of that very kind.

The login process is not something that is part of the adventure world - actual characters do not "log in", that is something that player does - the characters live in their world and know nothing about logging in or logging out. Running inside the world, on the other hand, very much is something the characters do, and certainly not something the players do (very few of us would be running and tumbling for hours on end if that was the case).

I am making an objective case - I'm saying that there's no gameplay justification for downtimes being excessively longer than it takes players to be ready for the next interaction. That's what I'm waiting to hear a counterargument for.

And no, a RAA would be if I said that players should have like -80% runspeed to start, and you can spend 1 AP to get +1% back. Login queues are very much a realistic thing in gaming. But you could substitute any scenario you want, the point is the mechanics are the same, you're spending opportunity cost to reduce an arbitrary timesink. Make it "going to the bathroom". Thats something your character does in-world lol. You have to spend 30 seconds at the end of every quest going to the bathroom, unless you spend AP in the "Quick Dump" enhancement.

You still waste your priceless lifetime to this guy? Oh my... why?! Why?!! ?

Oh I know perfectly well lol...he's just a useful target dummy for making the case for reinstating OOC runspeed to the devs

 

[The Blonde]

I like the idea of tumble Pips being an optional UI toggle you can move around, or tie to your character frame, or hide completely if you so choose.

I'd probably have them above my char ui frame at all times, preferably sideways. The tech to do this is used in action bars, I fail to see an issue in implementing it that way.

This is the only way to go.

 

[Shear-buckler]

I am making an objective case - I'm saying that there's no gameplay justification for downtimes being excessively longer than it takes players to be ready for the next interaction. That's what I'm waiting to hear a counterargument for.

It's not an objective case because what constitutes "excessively longer" is just your opinion. The counterargument is that downtimes are not "excessively longer" as it stands and the propsed changed all have significant detrimental effects.

 

[droid327]

It's not an objective case because what constitutes "excessively longer" is just your opinion. The counterargument is that downtimes are not "excessively longer" as it stands and the propsed changed all have significant detrimental effects.

"I cant define excessively longer, but I know it when I see it" lol

If its good enough for the SCOTUS, its good enough for DDO

I cant give you an exact number or ratio, but I'll just submit that many of the more egregious examples of engineered downtimes are objectively excessive to any reasonable player...and if you cant think of a single example you think is excessive, then you're probably not a reasonable player

What detrimental effects would there be to having an OOC turbo button? I get where Tumble was an imperfect implementation, but that doesnt mean the idea itself is flawed