U68 Preview 1: Wild Mage Sorcerer Archetype

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Spook

Ghostly Troll
I would consider making wild magic a major stance toggle and make the good and bad way bigger and have visual effects so you can react without having to mouse over the tooltips. This will allow you to turn it off when its critical (eg push raiding) but turn it on for fun. But then this archetype needs something other than wild magic to be considered over sorc.
 

Zuldar

Well-known member
Shiradi fits a bit with the whole random theme, consider adding the ability to avoid very bad and bad rolls into the cores and maybe some wild magic chance as multiselector enhancements.
 

DBZ

Well-known member
Shiradi needs the same proc rate as ranged to even bother and they just had the ED pass it ain't getting fixed
 

RobShow

Well-known member
RNG is RNG!

If the theme is wild magic, it has to be implemented as a whole. Nullifying the bads and very bads would kill the wild magic feature. Personally I didn't like it, but if it's just to have good and very good better to change the theme/name to something else.

If I was responsible for the wild magic choice it wouldn't even be on my list of options, but since it's going to be implemented, let it be as faithful as possible.

;)

Edit: If it's going to put wild magic as a stance, clikie, please do the same with Arcane Supremacy that it doesn't make any sense to be passive for Archmage.
 

Warsaga

present day - present time
RNG is RNG!

If the theme is wild magic, it has to be implemented as a whole. Nullifying the bads and very bads would kill the wild magic feature. Personally I didn't like it, but if it's just to have good and very good better to change the theme/name to something else.

If I was responsible for the wild magic choice it wouldn't even be on my list of options, but since it's going to be implemented, let it be as faithful as possible.

;)

Edit: If it's going to put wild magic as a stance, clikie, please do the same with Arcane Supremacy that it doesn't make any sense to be passive for Archmage.
I agree 100%. It wouldn't be like people HAVE to play it. Its a game where 100+ other options exists. I've played a lot of mmos and games where I've never even touched half the classes. The tree should exist as true as possible and be an option for people who are fine with toying with a chaotic and dangerous playstyle and creating memorable encounters where they can't predictably overwhelm the enemy ai with cc or overwhelming force. Spice is a valid form of play. If there was no consideration of upsides and downsides, then where would be the incentive to explore optional playstyles?
 

Nerosothe

Theorycrafting Degenerate
Hi hey Hello

My name is Nerosothe and I'm trying to make a habit of doing in depth testing of large Lamm patches and new content. I was a big fan of the ranged aoe changes and that Lamm cycle, I spent about 20 hours testing builds for said patch then dropped a large post discussing interactions, skill feel, and overall strength with cited numbers, what dungeons I ran, etc. So lets get on with the Wild Mage breakdown, or at least, the first iteration of Wild Mage.

Now my word is not gospel, my suggestions are not the end all way to change things. I wish to simply add commentary for the devs so that they have more playtested opinions/findings.

As per usual: my findings and conclusions were gathered over a roughly 16hr gameplay span working through 7-20 heroics all on r1, and 32 r1s, r4s, and r6's.

In green are intended goals and interactions as per the Wild Magic Surge opening forum post and this Archetype tree opening post by Steelstar.

In yellow are any limiters, bugs, and core mechanics of the game which impede this goal

In purple is my own personal comments and feelings.

In red are my suggestions to fix these issues.



HERE WE GO


Initially I was super excited to test out Wild Mage. But after about 16hrs of testing and several revelations I have come to the conclusion this tree needs a fair amount of work in terms of high heroic and epic scaling, the amount of spells available, and its proposed multiclass caster functionality. The tree itself is super cool, and I have tried 2 pure builds and 4 multiclass options spanning from 7 to 32. Despite my excitement right now for the concept I just want to focus on bugs or critical design flaws.

So today I will be going through some of the notable interactions within the tree, multiclass concepts, and pure Wild mage Sorc interactions. The purpose of this post is to highlight many of the interactions and desired goals from Steel's initial post which as of the 22nd of May, 2024, either straight up do not work, or have many limiters and tradeoffs which result in a large net loss of power for the Wild Magic Sorc.



Multiclassing with this tree allows for you to count your sorcerer caster levels to all other caster levels through the t4 "mixed magics".
-Ideally this would allow for combination of classes and builds like Artificer with a fire savant empowered arti's tactical detonation, or water ele druid's ice flowers empowered by water savant. The cost of the multiclass is the loss of a capstone and lvl 18 cores, as well as at least the loss of most caster's highest level spells (druid, clr, sorc, fvs lvl 9s).


There's a lot to go over here, buckle up.

Most spells have a max caster level of 20, taking mixed magics simply allows for, lets say, a 16arti/4WM to have 20 levels of arti in terms of caster level. There is no benefit to this multiclass then. No MCL increases exist save for t4 from WM, which typically t5s of other caster trees also have at lvl 18. So you have to go at least 12 Wild Mage, losing MANY spells and 2 other cores from your caster class of choice JUST TO BREAK EVEN in terms of Caster levels. IN ADDITION, the other caster you dip into in these scenarios only has access to lvl 3 or 4 spells of its respective class to be upcasted to lvl 20 MCL. So what do you really gain? To put it short, nothing. Theres little in the tree which warrants a multiclass save for wild magic surges themselves and t3's power in chaos. and while 100 sp with some fun randomness is cool, In most builds you are sacrificing caster levels, dcs, level 8 and 9 spells, and alot of EP's just to get to t4 Wild Mage.

There is also the issue of what stat to main in the multiclass. If you go Druid/Wild Mage you should be maxing wisdom so that your spells pass DC checks. However, the SLAs within WM are Cha based DC spells, meaning they are dead content in any non-charisma multiclass. This anti synergy within the tree for non-Cha based casters greatly hampers what you can take while reaching for the 20 points needed for Mixed magics, meaning the design of having this tree be a cool multiclass option for almost all casters is simply not accurate right now.

Furthermore, since Chaos sphere and chaos bolt (and Wild strike) all scale of sorc caster level, so they will be very weak unless you main class Wild Mage. This further hampers the caster multiclass concept as you are still picking one or the other; scaling intrinsic wild mage spells, or you respective caster class' spells. All in all, the SLA's within the tree need to be revisited a touch so that they don't solely have cha and sorc level scaling.



Make Caster levels scale off just character level with Mixed Magics.

So a large issue right now is that when multiclassing a caster and Wild Mage while picking up mixed magics, the character breaks even on caster levels for their wanted multiclass caster but not Wild Mage inversely. This means that it is true to say multiclassing at least 4 Wild mage doesn't effect caster level of your chosen other caster class. However, any levels outside of sorcerer still greatly hamper wild mage own spells/SLA's. A great example of how this hampers potential builds is a chaos/ alignment dmg cleric using chaos domain. Wild Mage's chaos spells need heavy investment in charisma and sorc levels while not counting cleric levels; on the flipside, your Cleric spells use both Sorc and Clr caster levels but scale off Wisdom so you also have to stat wisdom. In short, you cannot make good use of one caster class without neglecting and harming the other even with Wild Mage's Mixed Magics .

The SLA's of Wild Mage should scale with the highest of Cha, Wis, and Int, and should be based on character level for damage purposes.
-as per above, the current version of chaos bolt, chaos ball, and wild strike have no use in any non-charisma based build with a minimum 10 sorc multiclass. If the design is to make Wild Mage a Multiclass friendly tree, its SLA's should reflect that.

Either Savants or WM needs increases to max caster level. The current cost of multiclassing as a caster is a reduced or total loss of spell the variety of powerful endgame spells; in exchange, the spells you do pick up through multiclassing need to be stronger (in true sorc fashion). If a caster is losing t4/5/6 of either WM/savant/respective caster class tree, they are likely losing a unique spell trait, a minimum MCL increase of 1 and their best spells. Gaining 3 or so MCL seems like a fair trade for this steep price, so that their new Sorc empowered tactical det, multivial, horn of thunder, etc are all worth the trade and have viable scaling. Right now you just brick your spellcaster. You have to invest at least 22 points into this tree just to get multiclass casting up to par with caster levels of pure casters. In exchange you lose Cores, Spells, and EP into slight benefits to an dmg type most multiclass wont find use it (chaos). Adding MCL to Wild Mage either in tier 4 and/or its mid tier cores helps fix this. If this is too much power in one tree, maybe put the mcl in tier 2 and 3 cores of the elemental savant trees for their respective elements instead of just the CL increase. Now this does inevitably buff sorc savants if done in their tree, but I'm hoping a similar thing can be done to make a unique, wild mage specific savant trees as per Dragonlord and Ravager.

ALSO: mixed magics currently does nothing rn lmao. I have just been adding caster levels in data as if Mixed magics was working (averaging spell dmg increases with caster level then adding post quest data gathering and thinking if that would have made a difference.



The introduction of Wild mage means we have a Chaos based caster!

Chaos spells end at level 4 (chaos hammer), in total you have access to: chaos bolt, chaos sphere, wild strike, and chaos hammer. Of these spells, only chaos hammer has epic scaling's as the others cap off at caster level 10. In addition, the only destiny tree that provides any direct synergy with chaos casting is exalted angel through its light and alignment spell power boost and light spells. The only notable Chaos spell for epics is the Wild Mage capstone, which is a chaos version of Acid well.

Rework Hellball into a level 8 or 9 Sorc only spell. It does guaranteed Chaos dmg and 3 random elements of 3d20 + 15 acid, electric, fire, and sonic damage to enemies in an area. as a note to the devs, Hellball currently only counts your epic caster levels, not heroics, which is why its so weak rn.

Add somewhere deep into the tree (t5 or t4+ core) a multiselector of "Your *element of choice* spells gain an additional 2 points of chaos dmg per caster level, scaling with spell power. This appears already in blightcaster t5 core and would greatly add to the spell depth of WM pures. This allows for Wild mage pures to also dip deep into their respective savant trees so that they gain some spell variety by nature of working with an element in addition to chaos dmg.

Draconic needs chaos support or Magus does. Light and alignment synergy exists in Exalted Angel which is nice for the cleric/fvs multiclass (if multiclassing with Mixed magics gets revamped) but all other multiclass options and even chaos pure WM's really suffer in epics right now from a lack of a good epic attack, mantle, and passive buffs.


Make Shiradi spell proc chance scale with wild magic surge chance.
-Now I know caster Shiradi is a slippery slope, but Wild Mage and Shiradi is a match made in heaven and you limit the interaction to just Wild Mages so its not best in slot for all casters. even if its 1/2 of your Wild Magic Surge chance being added, it captures the essence of chaos and makes Shiradi a viable tree.

Add a "master of Chaos" epic feat which adds 10 MCL to WM chaos spells.
-As per above, the defining spells of this new architype currently loses its spell's viability in epics. a "master of chaos" epic feat would give the class a lot of mileage but I would assume the devs have already foreseen this.

I'm assuming this is planned but like, its gotta be said just in case.



Currently WM is great for heroic leveling due to its SLAs and t3's Power in Chaos, but REALLY falls of in epics with a lack of spell scaling and variety. I feel like the combination of Wild Magic Surges and the Wild Mage tree does create a unique player experience and has its own feel. What is of note here is the listed wild magic surges does SSG a disservice as many of the unlisted effects are straight up cool and good (mass flesh to stone, move speed, goldskin, luck bonus to dc's etc etc). I think many forum readers really don't get to see the surge's true picture and are focusing on a couple of bad apple effects which do deserve a second run through if time permits.




Now admittedly there's A lot more I wanna get into (savant synergy with certain classes being planned or not, non sorc spell books having the correct elemental affinities for savant benefits, the cost of getting to certain enhancement nodes, the 3rd core of WM "riches of randomness". But this is the first look into the tree and architype so I think what is above are the big things that need to be tackled in my own opinion. To the devs: I really like this archetype in essence, but there's a lot of interactions that are terra incognita right now that should be addressed, especially in regards to multiclass caster functionality with MCL, DC scaling's, spell depth, Main stating, and compatibility in epic trees. PLEASE please please double back on things like Mixed magics and lack of MCL and see if they can be tweaked to be more beneficial to their intended playstyle and builds.

That is all for now. Have a lovely day :)
 
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RobShow

Well-known member
I agree 100%. It wouldn't be like people HAVE to play it. Its a game where 100+ other options exists. I've played a lot of mmos and games where I've never even touched half the classes. The tree should exist as true as possible and be an option for people who are fine with toying with a chaotic and dangerous playstyle and creating memorable encounters they where can't predictably overwhelm the enemy ai with cc or overwhelming force. Spice is a valid form of play.
Exact! I may not like a lot of things in the game and so not play. However, if you are going to do anything, do it well and as faithful as possible to the "original".

Some people will like it, some people won't! The problem is when you suggest, implement something using a theme, archetype, class or whatever and the design, practical use of the idea is totally different or doesn't work USEFULLY!

You're going to put something, no matter what it is, that is USEFUL! Being useful is not about being top, uber, etc.

So each player can have options, diversity to play and have fun as HE wants!
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
SLA: Riches of Randomness: Once per Rest, target an unopened chest and twist fate for a chance at better rewards for the entire party. Chests can only be improved in this way one time, and there is a chance of failure based on your Charisma. (There is no special drawback on failure.) Some chests cannot be improved in this manner. This effect does not stack with Treasure Finding from the Greater Dragonmark of Finding.
Where's the 5% chance it causes a mimic to spawn? :D :ROFLMAO: :devilish:
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
I have to say that I don't agree with you, Rob. This is an mmo, not a single-player game. There must be ways to minimize the negative effects. If the character is not useful, he will not be admitted to group play.

If someone wants to suffer the negative effects, he can always don't take chaos control or take the 100 spellpower toggle. Having choice is appropriate.
 
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rabidfox

The People's Champion
Exact! I may not like a lot of things in the game and so not play. However, if you are going to do anything, do it well and as faithful as possible to the "original".
The original wild mage has a living breathing DM to deal with things and make adjustments on the fly when wild magic goes sideways. So I don't think any comparison to that will hold up in a MMO. They could just rename the two abilities that stop bad effects to "DM's prerogative I" and "DM's prerogative II" and it'd be 100% faithful to the origins.
 

Warsaga

present day - present time
I have to say that I don't agree with you, Rob. This is an mmo, not a single-player game. There must be ways to minimize the negative effects. If the character is not useful, he will not be admitted to group play.

If someone wants to suffer the negative effects, he can always take chaos control or not take the 100 spellpower toggle. Having choice is appropriate.
Still, it seems a tad too easy to access the mitigation for a multi splash. T2 and T3 is not a heavy investment in terms of AP. I think if you're going to gain the goodies of the tree as well as minimize its shortcomings, a larger investment should be required. I'm thinking move Chaos Control to Cores 3-4 or even 4-5. Hell, have Master of Chaos at Core 6 where you then only get the good effects for max investment.
 
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Phaaze

Well-known member
Maybe instead of ignoring bad and very bad, roll twice/thrice and use the better roll?

Adds weight away from bad and very bad but does not remove the rng entirely
 

Goldy

The Top Side
Hello, and welcome to the first preview of the Wild Mage (Sorcerer) Archetype! Based on the classic Wild Mage prestige class, Wild Mages are Sorcerers who tap into chaos and luck when they cast their spells. Before we dive into the archetype though, here's some important context:

What is Wild Magic in DDO?
Wild Magic is a system you'll see in the Myth Drannor content as well as a focal point of this Archetype (where it works in any content).

Essentially, while Wild Magic is active, you have a chance to get Wild Magic Surges that make extra magical effects occur the next time you cast a spell. You can get Surges over time, which set up for the next spell you cast. Wild Mages also have a chance to get a Surge after casting a spell. When you cast a spell while a Surge is active, your spell still resolves normally, anything that comes from a Surge is additional. The results of these surges fall into pools of Very Bad, Bad, Neutral, Good, and Very Good, based on how likely they are to be beneficial to their caster. The Wild Mage Archetype always has Wild Magic active, as a class feature.

There is an internal cooldown on how often you can get Surges, though certain abilities can give you "Rapid Surge", reducing or bypassing that cooldown.

You can find more detailed information about Wild Surges here:
https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/u68-preview-1-wild-magic-surges-general-info.11689/

That all said, let's dive into the Archetype!

Design Goals
  • Create an archetype that fits with the Wild Magic theme of Myth Drannor
  • Strong multiclass support with Warlock, Bard, FvS, Chaos Domain Cleric, and sub-support for Alc and Art
Class Trees:
  • NEW: Wild Mage
  • Fire Savant
  • Water Savant
  • Air Savant
  • Earth Savant
Changes vs. Base Sorcerer:
  • You gain the Wild Mage feat at level 1 (see below)
  • Eldritch Knight Tree is replaced with Wild Mage tree
  • Spell List:
    • You have access to Chaos Bolt (new) as a level 1 Sorcerer Spell (see SLA in the tree - The spell version only uses CHA for its DC, however.)
    • You have access to Chaos Ball (new) as a level 3 Sorcerer Spell (see SLA in the tree - The spell version only uses CHA for its DC, however.)
    • You have access to Chaos Hammer as a level 4 Sorcerer Spell
New Feats:
  • Wild Mage:
    • Automatically granted at Wild Mage 1
    • You have a small chance over time and when casting spells to incur a Wild Magic Surge. This can have a variety of positive or negative effects.
Unless specifically listed, assume the class is otherwise identical to Sorcerer.

Alignment Note: Wild Mage has no alignment restrictions.

Wild Mage Tree
  • Cores
    • Core 1: Determination
      • +1 Will Saving Throw
      • +10 Chaos Spell Power. (Chaos Spell Power is part of Alignment Spell Power).
    • Core 2:
      • Boldness: +1 Caster Level with Chaos Spells
      • +10 Chaos Spell Power
      • +10 Universal Spell Power
    • Core 3:
      • SLA: Riches of Randomness: Once per Rest, target an unopened chest and twist fate for a chance at better rewards for the entire party. Chests can only be improved in this way one time, and there is a chance of failure based on your Charisma. (There is no special drawback on failure.) Some chests cannot be improved in this manner. This effect does not stack with Treasure Finding from the Greater Dragonmark of Finding.
      • +10 Chaos Spell Power
    • Core 4: Entropic Energy
      • You gain +1 Caster Level and Max Caster Level when casting any spell.
      • +10 Chaos Spell Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, +1% chance of incurring a Wild Magic Surge when casting a spell. You may use Riches of Randomness one additional time per Rest.
    • Core 5: Reject Limits
      • You gain +1 Caster Level and Max Caster Level when casting any spell.
      • +10 Chaos Spell Power, +10 Universal Spell Power.
    • Core 6:
      • Channel Entropy: SLA: A field of chaotic energy strikes the target and nearby enemies, dealing 19 to 24 Chaos damage per caster level (max 380 to 480). A successful Will save reduces the damage by half. D&D Dice: Deals 1d6+18 Chaos damage per caster level, max caster level 20.
      • +4 CHA, +10 Chaos Spell Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, +x% chance of incurring a Wild Magic Surge when casting a spell. You may use Riches of Randomness one additional time per Rest.
  • Tier 1
    • SLA: Chaos Bolt: Fires a small orb of Chaos at a target, doing 1d6+2 Chaos Damage per caster level (max 10d6+20 at caster level 10).
      • (This is based on the <Element> Bolt spells, and you can assume it works identically.)
    • Lucky Dodge: +1/2/3 Dodge while wearing no armor. Rank 3: While wearing no armor, you gain +1d6 Dodge Cap. The die is rerolled once per minute.
    • Student of Chaos I: +1/2/3% chance of incurring a Wild Magic Surge when casting a spell.
    • Tides of Chaos I: Once per minute, you gain a +1/2/3 bonus to one of Reflex, Fortitude, or Will Saving Throws for one minute.
    • Skills: +1/2/3 Spellcraft, Concentration, and Bluff.
  • Tier 2
    • Action Boost: Wild Magic: For the next 20 seconds, your chances of getting a Wild Magic Surge are improved by 5/10/15%.
    • Chaos Control I: If you would get a Very Bad Wild Magic Surge, you get a Bad Surge instead.
    • Student of Chaos II: +1/2/3% chance of incurring a Wild Magic Surge when casting a spell.
    • Tides of Chaos II: Once per minute, when you incur a Wild Magic Surge, you gain a defensive buff that scales with Wild Mage level and lasts for 20 seconds..
    • Chaotic Mind: Your mind is harder to comprehend; you are immune to Dominate Person/Monster, Command and Greater Command as per the Protection from Evil spell.
  • Tier 3
    • SLA: Chaos Sphere: Launches a chaotic orb that explodes on impact, dealing 1d6 Chaos Damage per caster level (up to a max of 10d6 Chaos Damage at caster level 10) to targets in the area. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half. This SLA uses the highest of your INT, WIS, and CHA in its DC calculation, and uses the higher of your Evocation and Conjuration DCs for its spell school.
      • (This is based on Lightning Sphere, and you can assume it works identically).
    • Chaos Control II: If you would get a Very Bad or Bad Wild Magic Surge, you get a Neutral one instead. (requires Chaos Control I).
    • Student of Chaos III: +1/2/3% chance of incurring a Wild Magic Surge when casting a spell.
    • Power in Chaos: Toggle: You gain +100 Universal Spell Power, but are able to receive Very Bad and Bad Surges even if you have Chaos Control I or II.
    • Ability Score: Multiselector:
      • INT
      • WIS
      • CHA
  • Tier 4
    • Unpredictable Consequences: Your Chaos Bolt, Chaos Sphere, and Channel Entropy spells and SLAs now add additional damage, debuff, or crowd control effects when cast. If the target saves for half damage on Chaos Sphere, the additional effects are negated.
    • Multiselector:
      • Unstable Sorcery: While wearing no armor, you gain 2% Spell Critical Damage.
      • Mixed Magics: Your Wild Mage levels count for calculating Caster Levels in other spellcasting classes you have at least 1 level in.
    • Student of Chaos IV: +1/2/3% chance of incurring a Wild Magic Surge when casting a spell.
    • Tides of Chaos III: +2/4/6% Chaos Spell Crit Chance.
    • Ability Score: Multiselector:
      • INT
      • WIS
      • CHA
  • Tier 5
    • SLA: Wildstrike: Surround target adversary with rainbows, dealing dealing 1d6+6 Chaos Damage per caster level (Maximum damage 10d6+60). Every 2 seconds for 8 seconds, affected enemies take a random effect.
    • Bend Luck: You gain Bend Luck: Whenever you fail a Saving Throw, you reroll that Saving Throw and take the second result. This stacks with Slippery Mind, but does not stack with other sources of Bend Luck.
    • Rapid Surge: Active: For the next 15 seconds, you gain Wild Surges very rapidly.
    • Random Deflector: While wearing no armor, you gain +1d100 MRR Cap. This die is rerolled once per minute.
    • Tides of Chaos IV: -2 to all Spell DCs. Whenever you cast a spell with a DC, you gain +1d6 to the DC of that spell.
      • (This averages to +1 to +2, as most T5 DC boosts are +1 to +2. You have a chance for a -1, but also a chance at a +4.)
      • (We are aware that many players may not like the kind of randomness this brings, but it is part of the theme - we would rather buff it than cut it.)


Past Life:

TBD
I copied my Sorc to Lamannia and reincarnated the character into Wild Mage and played them at various level to get a feel for the archetype and the new systems. Mostly I played Solo on Elite and not reaper. I did not use a hireling even though my Sorc is a squish human.

One of the design questions that plagued me as I have played through, who would play this archetype? When I crossed out raiding, end game, new players, casual players, .... I was left with Role Players. I am not against giving something to the underrepresented group, but I think you need a wider audience. Using blight caster as an example. Blight Caster plays well for new players, 28 point builds, a player that does not have 30 bank toons with horded gear, not a lot of tomes. As you go to 32, 34 and 36 point builds, throw tomes and gear at the blight caster there is a much smaller "improvement" in the blight caster than you get from other classes. I.E. performs well on Hardcore, struggles on G-Land.

In a way this is like looking at a first draft of a students five page essay, there is lots of potential for this to turn out well or poorly based upon the forthcoming changes. Is it balancing on a knife and a little shift could make the whole thing either overpowered OR the other side of the coin, a newb trap? This is not a condemnation of the idea, but rather my reaction based upon this play through.

Mostly I would like to see small changes, many have been suggested in this thread so I will not duplicate them.

There needs to be a bigger upside to playing this Archetype over the potential failed surges. I hope that make sense. If I play my Light Nuker Cleric I don't have the downside of the WM surges and I believe that I will be on equal footing to this archetype in terms of DPS, maybe even higher. It has been hinted at that there are some additions and changes coming and it may bring a larger upside to the archetype but it has to be a lot more if the surge can turn your character into a potted plant.

I don't see the synergies with existing classes you have listed. Not because they don't have some mesh points, but rather when you are giving up [insert ability here] from other class to add WM you would expect the new ability or combined ability to be greater than what you gave up, that is not the case at the moment.

Looking forward to the next preview.
 

RobShow

Well-known member
I have to say that I don't agree with you, Rob. This is an mmo, not a single-player game. There must be ways to minimize the negative effects. If the character is not useful, he will not be admitted to group play.

If someone wants to suffer the negative effects, he can always take chaos control or not take the 100 spellpower toggle. Having choice is appropriate.
I do not disagree with what you have just said.

But I realized that the Devs do what they want and that's it! I've never seen them go back on such important and impactful decisions, so now I think about taking their position into consideration.

If they're going to put wildmagic, totally nullifying bad and very bad mischaracterizes the archetype in its main characteristic. Take everything as it is and put another name on it, take on another theme, shape, but wild magic without real RNG is not wild magic.

For me, Wild Magic wouldn't even be considered to put in the game. And on that I think we can easily agree. :)
 

RobShow

Well-known member
The original wild mage has a living breathing DM to deal with things and make adjustments on the fly when wild magic goes sideways. So I don't think any comparison to that will hold up in a MMO. They could just rename the two abilities that stop bad effects to "DM's prerogative I" and "DM's prerogative II" and it'd be 100% faithful to the origins.
Some DMs don't favor, adjust, intervene to save the players, what I had when I played tried to kill my wizard every adventure, had no mercy for the players who made stupid choices and so on. His rule of thumb was the result of D20! :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

Xezon

Well-known member
Play through Feedback: Both low level start and imported high level character start. Here's my full feedback since won't be able to test any further and pretty much did everything I was looking to do on this first preview. Wall of Text in-bound.

Likes:

- The look of the Chaos spells are pretty nice. Awesome job on the graphics part of the spells.

- I personally like the idea of the high power spell capstone (that is when it functions correctly). It helps solve the issue of having no high power light/alignment spells late. The highest natural one is Sunburst which is nothing compared to the elemental level 9s.

-Tides of Chaos 2 Buffs are pretty good. Have some suggestions on them to keep them viable long term but they are actually pretty useful especially the defensive ones.

Bugs:

- Chaos Sphere is not gaining the Caster level increases from the Boldness Core point, neither the SLA nor the Spell book version.

- Chaos Sphere fizzles/fails to deal damage frequently when directly hitting an enemy with it. This is especially true when the orb hits the head of a target or is cast point blank. Works best when hitting the ground near enemies.

- Chaos Sphere's travel and targeting is weird. It doesn't fly as far as alch pots, and is a bit less reliable than lightning sphere in going the right direction and reaching the target. The arc it follows is inconsistent and very likely to hit ceilings and hanging objects.

- Certain points in the tree do not function properly (or at all) as have been stated by others.

- The Capstone spell Channel Entropy is pretty inconsistent in hitting enemies. Seems like distance, water, uneven ground, and possibly other things can cause it to go off but not deal damage at times. But when it does... oh boy does it hit like a Truck.

- Rapid Surge seems to not be functioning correctly. It activates on ability bar but there is no noticeable difference in the number of surges that go off during the 15 second duration.

Suggestions and Feedback:

- Reduce CD of Chaos Sphere to 3-4 seconds. Simple but with limited spells and SLA's every bit counts.

- Allow Empower, Maximize, and Intensify to be used with Wild Strike.

- Tides of Chaos 2 buffs are nice but the scaling is inconsistent. Some are off of Character level, some are off of Wild Mage level, some are fractions of either of those two, and some are full benefit of one of those two. I'd recommend making the scaling off of WM levels with 50% being the absolute minimum, but for most full Wm level would be more appropriate considering they are only 20 second buffs.

- Tides of Chaos 2 shouldn't be able to roll Melee and Ranged Power as an option. Since EK is not available to this archtype, there is no real reason to allow melee and range power to roll as one of the buffs since this archtype is 100% caster.

- Tides of Chaos 4... I strongly dislike any type of point that cost AP for a potential penalty. I understand that thematically it fits with the chaotic nature of wild magic. Even though it's only 1 AP, you are still spending AP for a 1/3 chance that that point will end up being either detrimental or completely useless (should you roll a 1-2 on the d6). I know this is one of those thematically locked points, but Spell DC isn't really one of those things that casters can afford to be risking. If this was something like spell power variability, that's something else. I'd even argue that making the number 1d4-1 would be better as the result would be 0-3 DC, resulting in, at worst, no gain in spell DC while also keeping the relative power the same (average of 1.5 or a 1-2 Spell DC average). This reduces the odd of spending AP for no benefit to 1/4, and removes the chance of actually spending AP and losing spell DC. I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't be put in a position where spending AP has a chance of penalizing your character.

- Add an additional 1% chance to proc Wild Magic Surges to the Capstone (for a total of 2%). It's not a huge thing but it rounds out the chance to proc Wild Magic Surges to a clean 20%. As of right now it goes to 19%.

- Unpredictable consequences is a nice touch, but most of the effects seem fairly weak. I'm guessing it's because the additional damages scale off of their related spell powers and has little to no level scaling? Perhaps consider making them deal a random type of damage, but scale with Chaos Spell power regardless of what type of damage is picked (like spill the bad stuff from the Apothecary tree in alch). Haven't noticed much in the way of the CC or Debuffs in the day of testing I've done. I'd actually prefer that those two be more prevalent than just added damage if I'm being totally honest.

-Epic Feats for the Chaos spells. I don't know if I missed it or overlooked it but I didn't see it. The "Master of X" feats are critical to the power of casters SLAs in epics.

- Either add additional proc chances and chaos damage support to the Shiradi for Wild Magic Surges to better support it's randomness procs, or add a line of Chaos themed SLAs, Mantle toggle, etc. to the Exalted angel. Right now there's limited support for the playstyle in Epics, but a little bit of adjustment to either of those trees could easily remedy that situation. Both these trees are viable options but both have some issues when supporting this Archtype.

Other Concerns:

- This Archtype focuses on drawing it's power from the randomness of Wild Magic Surges. Even with the Controlled Chaos points, many, if not most, of the wild magic surge effects are ignore-able or non-impactful. This is fine for the ones that are supposed to be (fireworks, confetti, pumpkin head, etc). I'm cool with those being in there. Not everything needs to be so serious and super impactful. However, even the effects that ARE supposed to be impactful don't feel like they are. A lot of the numbers are either too low, or the effects wear off too fast to actually make use of them. I personally feel like since these are the main forcus of the Archtype, Wild Surges need to have stronger, more meaningful effects when they are intended to have some sort of combat focused effect.

- Additionally, the effects and timers of some of the Wild Surges are very very very short... like so short by the time you mouse over the buff to see what it does, it's disappearing before you can read it. I think all buffs/debuffs need a standardized duration on them. No less than 15 seconds or else they're so short they're unnoticeable. I would also recommend that any combat focused one time uses buffes should persist until used, even if you leave combat before it's used. If that's not possible, make them last at least a minute OR until used. Together with the increase in power for the combat focused ones (and possibly adding more directly useful combat ones), it would make the archtype feel more like it's about using for the random effects rather than another reskin nuker using just a different damage type. I'd personally like to see more of the Wild magic Surges being about CC, debuffing, and unique effects rather than just straight up added damage. Sleep, confusion, paralysis, dazing, petrification, nausea, etc are all effects that are used either as burst from the character or as on hit effects on the spells that they're attached to and they're cool, just not frequent... I'm not sure if they're from unpredictable consequences or WMS's



Overall, I like the tree/archtype and the way it plays. I do have concerns for it's Epic level longevity, but without the capstone working properly/consistently it's hard to say exactly. As stated above, there's somethings that'd make it better imo such as amping up the power of WMS's and fine tuning some things, but as of right now it actually feels decent to play. For a first iteration, it's pretty solid.
 
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Jummby

Well-known member
Hello, and welcome to the first preview of the Wild Mage (Sorcerer) Archetype! Based on the classic Wild Mage prestige class, Wild Mages are Sorcerers who tap into chaos and luck when they cast their spells. Before we dive into the archetype though, here's some important context:

What is Wild Magic in DDO?
Wild Magic is a system you'll see in the Myth Drannor content as well as a focal point of this Archetype (where it works in any content).

Essentially, while Wild Magic is active, you have a chance to get Wild Magic Surges that make extra magical effects occur the next time you cast a spell. You can get Surges over time, which set up for the next spell you cast. Wild Mages also have a chance to get a Surge after casting a spell. When you cast a spell while a Surge is active, your spell still resolves normally, anything that comes from a Surge is additional. The results of these surges fall into pools of Very Bad, Bad, Neutral, Good, and Very Good, based on how likely they are to be beneficial to their caster. The Wild Mage Archetype always has Wild Magic active, as a class feature.

There is an internal cooldown on how often you can get Surges, though certain abilities can give you "Rapid Surge", reducing or bypassing that cooldown.

You can find more detailed information about Wild Surges here:
https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/u68-preview-1-wild-magic-surges-general-info.11689/

That all said, let's dive into the Archetype!

Design Goals
  • Create an archetype that fits with the Wild Magic theme of Myth Drannor
  • Strong multiclass support with Warlock, Bard, FvS, Chaos Domain Cleric, and sub-support for Alc and Art
Class Trees:
  • NEW: Wild Mage
  • Fire Savant
  • Water Savant
  • Air Savant
  • Earth Savant
Changes vs. Base Sorcerer:
  • You gain the Wild Mage feat at level 1 (see below)
  • Eldritch Knight Tree is replaced with Wild Mage tree
  • Spell List:
    • You have access to Chaos Bolt (new) as a level 1 Sorcerer Spell (see SLA in the tree - The spell version only uses CHA for its DC, however.)
    • You have access to Chaos Ball (new) as a level 3 Sorcerer Spell (see SLA in the tree - The spell version only uses CHA for its DC, however.)
    • You have access to Chaos Hammer as a level 4 Sorcerer Spell
New Feats:
  • Wild Mage:
    • Automatically granted at Wild Mage 1
    • You have a small chance over time and when casting spells to incur a Wild Magic Surge. This can have a variety of positive or negative effects.
Unless specifically listed, assume the class is otherwise identical to Sorcerer.

Alignment Note: Wild Mage has no alignment restrictions.

Wild Mage Tree
  • Cores
    • Core 1: Determination
      • +1 Will Saving Throw
      • +10 Chaos Spell Power. (Chaos Spell Power is part of Alignment Spell Power).
    • Core 2:
      • Boldness: +1 Caster Level with Chaos Spells
      • +10 Chaos Spell Power
      • +10 Universal Spell Power
    • Core 3:
      • SLA: Riches of Randomness: Once per Rest, target an unopened chest and twist fate for a chance at better rewards for the entire party. Chests can only be improved in this way one time, and there is a chance of failure based on your Charisma. (There is no special drawback on failure.) Some chests cannot be improved in this manner. This effect does not stack with Treasure Finding from the Greater Dragonmark of Finding.
      • +10 Chaos Spell Power
    • Core 4: Entropic Energy
      • You gain +1 Caster Level and Max Caster Level when casting any spell.
      • +10 Chaos Spell Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, +1% chance of incurring a Wild Magic Surge when casting a spell. You may use Riches of Randomness one additional time per Rest.
    • Core 5: Reject Limits
      • You gain +1 Caster Level and Max Caster Level when casting any spell.
      • +10 Chaos Spell Power, +10 Universal Spell Power.
    • Core 6:
      • Channel Entropy: SLA: A field of chaotic energy strikes the target and nearby enemies, dealing 19 to 24 Chaos damage per caster level (max 380 to 480). A successful Will save reduces the damage by half. D&D Dice: Deals 1d6+18 Chaos damage per caster level, max caster level 20.
      • +4 CHA, +10 Chaos Spell Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, +x% chance of incurring a Wild Magic Surge when casting a spell. You may use Riches of Randomness one additional time per Rest.
  • Tier 1
    • SLA: Chaos Bolt: Fires a small orb of Chaos at a target, doing 1d6+2 Chaos Damage per caster level (max 10d6+20 at caster level 10).
      • (This is based on the <Element> Bolt spells, and you can assume it works identically.)
    • Lucky Dodge: +1/2/3 Dodge while wearing no armor. Rank 3: While wearing no armor, you gain +1d6 Dodge Cap. The die is rerolled once per minute.
    • Student of Chaos I: +1/2/3% chance of incurring a Wild Magic Surge when casting a spell.
    • Tides of Chaos I: Once per minute, you gain a +1/2/3 bonus to one of Reflex, Fortitude, or Will Saving Throws for one minute.
    • Skills: +1/2/3 Spellcraft, Concentration, and Bluff.
  • Tier 2
    • Action Boost: Wild Magic: For the next 20 seconds, your chances of getting a Wild Magic Surge are improved by 5/10/15%.
    • Chaos Control I: If you would get a Very Bad Wild Magic Surge, you get a Bad Surge instead.
    • Student of Chaos II: +1/2/3% chance of incurring a Wild Magic Surge when casting a spell.
    • Tides of Chaos II: Once per minute, when you incur a Wild Magic Surge, you gain a defensive buff that scales with Wild Mage level and lasts for 20 seconds..
    • Chaotic Mind: Your mind is harder to comprehend; you are immune to Dominate Person/Monster, Command and Greater Command as per the Protection from Evil spell.
  • Tier 3
    • SLA: Chaos Sphere: Launches a chaotic orb that explodes on impact, dealing 1d6 Chaos Damage per caster level (up to a max of 10d6 Chaos Damage at caster level 10) to targets in the area. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half. This SLA uses the highest of your INT, WIS, and CHA in its DC calculation, and uses the higher of your Evocation and Conjuration DCs for its spell school.
      • (This is based on Lightning Sphere, and you can assume it works identically).
    • Chaos Control II: If you would get a Very Bad or Bad Wild Magic Surge, you get a Neutral one instead. (requires Chaos Control I).
    • Student of Chaos III: +1/2/3% chance of incurring a Wild Magic Surge when casting a spell.
    • Power in Chaos: Toggle: You gain +100 Universal Spell Power, but are able to receive Very Bad and Bad Surges even if you have Chaos Control I or II.
    • Ability Score: Multiselector:
      • INT
      • WIS
      • CHA
  • Tier 4
    • Unpredictable Consequences: Your Chaos Bolt, Chaos Sphere, and Channel Entropy spells and SLAs now add additional damage, debuff, or crowd control effects when cast. If the target saves for half damage on Chaos Sphere, the additional effects are negated.
    • Multiselector:
      • Unstable Sorcery: While wearing no armor, you gain 2% Spell Critical Damage.
      • Mixed Magics: Your Wild Mage levels count for calculating Caster Levels in other spellcasting classes you have at least 1 level in.
    • Student of Chaos IV: +1/2/3% chance of incurring a Wild Magic Surge when casting a spell.
    • Tides of Chaos III: +2/4/6% Chaos Spell Crit Chance.
    • Ability Score: Multiselector:
      • INT
      • WIS
      • CHA
  • Tier 5
    • SLA: Wildstrike: Surround target adversary with rainbows, dealing dealing 1d6+6 Chaos Damage per caster level (Maximum damage 10d6+60). Every 2 seconds for 8 seconds, affected enemies take a random effect.
    • Bend Luck: You gain Bend Luck: Whenever you fail a Saving Throw, you reroll that Saving Throw and take the second result. This stacks with Slippery Mind, but does not stack with other sources of Bend Luck.
    • Rapid Surge: Active: For the next 15 seconds, you gain Wild Surges very rapidly.
    • Random Deflector: While wearing no armor, you gain +1d100 MRR Cap. This die is rerolled once per minute.
    • Tides of Chaos IV: -2 to all Spell DCs. Whenever you cast a spell with a DC, you gain +1d6 to the DC of that spell.
      • (This averages to +1 to +2, as most T5 DC boosts are +1 to +2. You have a chance for a -1, but also a chance at a +4.)
      • (We are aware that many players may not like the kind of randomness this brings, but it is part of the theme - we would rather buff it than cut it.)


Past Life:

TBD
The lag that will occur with this new class and everyone playing it at the same time since it's new and people want past lives will be monumental.
 

Stratiotis

Well-known member
Yeah, yeah...wild n' crazy magic surge non-sense to add more caster chaos to the battlefield that they already so love doing; hopping about like flitting and frightened faeries, kiting every stupid mob around. Have fun trying to join a group of melee hitters ...whatever; what's the past life bonus so I can decide to box passed this nonsense or not? Please tell me it +5 to go weewee in my pants so I can save a couple dollars and skip the whole dumb thing...
 

Lotoc

Well-known member
  • Strong multiclass support with Warlock, Bard, FvS, Chaos Domain Cleric, and sub-support for Alc and Art
The tree I feel could do with some multiselectors for supporting the "Strong multiclass support" splits a bit more directly I feel.
Some ideas I have

a Pact toggle for warlocks that would replace their usual pact damage with chaos damage (would help a WM/AotS split maintain decent damage while fighting fire immune mobs)
Bard's fascinate now additionally applies confusion, Shout/Gshout/Horn of Thunder deal additional chaos damage (Cacophany would be a great name for such an effect)
Favored Soul archon, soundburst, light spells and cometfall deal additional chaos damage.
Cleric boosts the same spells, if chaos domain Inflict spells and your domain SLAs additionally deal chaos damage (Negative energy and Chaos are both entropic in nature) and Turn Undead will weight your next Wild Magic surge more positively.
 
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