U70 Preview 2: Performance Adjustments to Repeating+Dual Crossbow Styles

[Mindos]

When running Endless Fusillade, Repeating Crossbows now have a slight pause between each 3-shot volley to allow the server room to breathe a little

While this is good as well, I still think the problem is the 3 volley shot has its projectiles too close together. Maybe the rabid shot/reload changes will help here, but this is where the problem is, in my opinion.

 

[Grumpy]

i did some testing between lamania and live, and from what I can tell, overall damage should go up, while burst damage goes down.
The following testing was done standing in town, simply checking fire rates, and not trying to push damage, but more to see the number of bolts fired in the same period of time.

Using a repeater, on live currently, I fire in a 30 second period of time, 72 bolts this takes into account my DS of 28% after the penatly. 72 X 800 = 57600 with the additional DS bringing my damage up to 73000.

On Cormyr, I fire in a 30 second period of time 60 bolts with a DS of 117% bringing my damage up to 104K.

So standard base damage for repeaters is going up, from what I can tell

On live during the 18 seconds of a fusilade attack I fire 108 bolts with a 28% DS bringing my damage to 110,000.
On Cormyr during the same time I fire 60 bolts with a 117 DS bringing my damage to 104,000.

So there is a drop in burst DPS for the build, but it is only a slight drop. Where the changes are being made is the number of bolts down the field, because while base damage has gone up, anything that applies "On Hit" goes down

 

[Phaaze]

after testing this on a level 4 arti it feels rough and sluggish at early levels even with rapid shot and rapid reload.

the a fire rate is not super bad but the reload speed feels pretty bad. so yeah, if reload and aim speed could start much faster compared to base attack bonus and end up the same at cap that would be nice. fire rate feels fine.

 

[Alternative]

member old Tempest 1, old Zeal, old Wind Stance, and old Ftr capstone, how nerfing those reduced lag?

yeah me neither

 

[Mindos]

With Ranger TWF, long ago, you were gonna get all the procs you wanted, then came the nerf in the name of lag!
Then with Bows, you had manyshot, 4 arrows at once, lots of procs! Then came the nerf, in the name of lag!
And now... well, you get the picture.

Two issues:

1. We've seen time and again how this is "supposed" to help with lag, but the lag is still here today. Adding Expanded Clip and then now removing it shows inconsistency. Are you fighting lag or boosting power? And what happens after *this* lag fix, when either you or another future dev adds power again?

2. There *HAS* to be some way to recoup procs. At the end of the day, I don't really care as much about the big DPS numbers, or the time to kill, but instead, it's the little things, the unique things, the flavor, the builds, uh, built to capitalize on procs. There MUST be some way to greatly increase to the procs to offset these number of attacks nerfs. I want a TWF that can't kill fast, but dabbles in magic, etc. So long as it can lock down crowd control with procs, etc. That was a horrible example, but you get the idea, why lock us into being on rails into only certain builds are viable, let us dream of weird things. Let a greatly increased proc rate be the dream deliver mechanic.

 

[Kimbere]

Hello, all!

Part of our focus in Update 70 has been tracking down performance issues, and in this preview we'll be looking at a change meant to address one of the more common player reports related to performance: Repeating and Dual Crossbow attack speed.

After investigation, even without running Endless Fusillade/No Holds Barred, the current rate of fire does seem to have negative impacts on the client, the server, and other nearby players when used by builds that are fully kitted out. Fusillade only exacerbates this, but it in and of itself is not the root of the issue (which is why simply adjusting Fusillade would not be a sufficient fix).

In this Preview, we've taken some measures to slow down both of these styles' attack and reload speeds. To try and maintain the DPS of these styles, we have balanced this change around a corresponding buff: We're planning to remove the current Doubleshot penalties (-66% on Repeating Crossbows, -50% on Dual Crossbows) with this change, allowing both to benefit from 100% of your Doubleshot score. In Update 49, we changed how Doubleshot works, making it much more performance-friendly for these styles to benefit from it now than it had been when they were originally developed.

We are definitely aware that changes to attack speed are difficult adjustments. Some players find a lot of fun in being able to shoot fast. However, the performance gains in such an adjustment are important game-wide, which is why we are looking into this change. Internally, the changes here make a significant difference in overall game performance, and we'll be looking to see if the same holds true during this preview. We strongly encourage those with Crossbow builds to try them out this Preview, as actual-play data will be the most important and actionable feedback on the subject.

While we know that such a change will reduce the rate at which these styles build up debuffs and other procs, they are already relatively efficient at applying them relative to other builds and will continue to be, though to a lesser degree, after this change. If needed, we will adjust before U70 or in followup patches to ensure these styles continue to be viable.

That all said, here is the list of changes present in this build:

• We have removed the -66% Doubleshot Modifier from Repeating Crossbows and the -50% Doubleshot Modifier from Dual Crossbows.
• The timing between each shot on Repeating Crossbows, as well as the timing in each volley before the Reload portion starts, has been increased slightly.
• The baseline (usually invisible to players) attack speed of Repeating and Dual Crossbows has been reduced slightly.
• Rapid Reload's bonus for Light Repeating Crossbows has been reduced from 65% to 35%
• Rapid Reload's bonus for Heavy Repeating Crossbows has been reduced from 70% to 40%.
• Rapid Reload's bonus for all Dual Crossbows has been reduced from 40% to 20%.
• The bonus to Reload Speed from Rapid Shot for Repeating and Dual Crossbows has been reduced.
• When running Endless Fusillade, Repeating Crossbows now have a slight pause between each 3-shot volley to allow the server room to breathe a little
• Inquisitive's T5 Paths now grant +15% Attack Speed and +15% Doubleshot (replacing the previous +30% Attack Speed).
• The Expanded Clip Epic Feat was a significant contributor to the rate of fire performance problems with Repeating Crossbows. It no longer adds an extra shot, and instead grants +33% stacking Doubleshot with Repeating Crossbows.

Did you use the same DPS testing methodology you used for the original Inquisitives? Asking for a friend.

 

[Ryiah]

We've seen time and again how this is "supposed" to help with lag, but the lag is still here today.

Keyword being "help". You can never completely eliminate lag. It's simply not doable. That doesn't mean you should put zero effort into it.

 

[Melkizadek]

Hello, all!

Part of our focus in Update 70 has been tracking down performance issues, and in this preview we'll be looking at a change meant to address one of the more common player reports related to performance: Repeating and Dual Crossbow attack speed.

This news is bitter sweet for me. I basically only play inquisitive builds these days, but have been taking a break recently after encountering 45 second lag spikes that resulted in unavoidable deaths.

So changes to fix lag are welcome, but the funness factor of my favorite build just got reduced. DPS changes aside (not currently playing in order to weigh in on that discussion much), this does not make me want to come back to the game. Reasons to follow:

1. Slower feels worse. One of the reasons I play inquisitive is the speed. Reloading slower, shooting slower (especially in heroics) is going to result in a poorer experience overall.

2. If these changes make it through, my gear will be affected. Doubleshot on an inquisitive is nice, but I don't chase down every point of DS because of the penalty. Now to potentially get back to my DPS numbers that I had before I will most definitely have to chase down those points of DS. (However I have my doubts about losing shiradi procs and the speed at which Archers Focus stacks will be offset by a little extra DS)

So if I come back to the game I will be looking at a slower experience and met with a potential farm to rearrange all of the gear I have worked so hard to acquire and slot with augments.

Sorry that I am unable to help with testing and actual numbers, but did want to weigh in my thoughts.

Thanks for chasing down lag, just sucks for it to change the mechanics of my favorite build...again. And during a break where I am disappointed with the game.

 

[shopach]

In this case, the performance problem is due to the game mechanic: The rate of these ranged attacks being higher than what the servers and 20-year-old engine can handle. While there are certainly actions we're taking to improve the capacity of the game to handle things like this - 64-bit servers do help with this issue - They cannot fix the problem on their own. We could let the lag caused by this continue to affect players for much, much longer than this to get a hypothetical risky-but-broader engine change that could potentially handle those speeds, but instead we're looking at adjusting this now, with changes to offset the reduction in speed, to bring better performance fixes now instead of in the indeterminate future.

I think it's important to see what you're doing as quite possibly just as "risky" as the engine change.

The risk of an engine change is that you might mess it up, but proper testing *cough* hedges that possibility, and you can roll back or fix those changes if worse comes to worst.

The risk of gutting 20% (made up number, but you get the idea, it's gonna be a lot) of the player base's favorite style of play is that they might leave your game, or even just spend less money on it, which could be financially problematic. This game doesn't really have a replenishable player base, so it's even more important that the team should exercise extreme caution when potentially breaking players' favorite toys, when there aren't new players waiting in the wings to take their place.

Historically you guys have struggled to hit the mark on these changes. The doubleshot/doublestrike changes took quite a while to iron out all the little details, and I remember there being a good bit of consternation in the community after the fact because various procs were forgotten and left out. I don't say this to be derogatory in any way, just to keep expectations realistic.

When discussing risk, it must also be coupled with the payoff. Here the payoff is a minor alleviation of load to servers, the risk is breaking people's favorite toys.

The risk of fixing the old engine may be greater, but the payoff would presumably be astronomically better.

I appreciate you taking the time to engage with the community on this topic and your insights here, and I just wanted to throw my perspective into the mix.

 

[Baahb3]

If you are going to do this, you HAVE TO remove the startup of enabling EF and NHB. If you are going to introduce a delay between shots, then give us back 3s of the boost. You had this before with NHB. It should be changed back to instant like other action boosts.

 

[Dragavon]

We are definitely aware that changes to attack speed are difficult adjustments. Some players find a lot of fun in being able to shoot fast. However, the performance gains in such an adjustment are important game-wide, which is why we are looking into this change. Internally, the changes here make a significant difference in overall game performance, and we'll be looking to see if the same holds true during this preview. We strongly encourage those with Crossbow builds to try them out this Preview, as actual-play data will be the most important and actionable feedback on the subject.

With these changes you have to increase the chance for Shiradi procs to proc or these ranged builds will loose a lot more than the doubleshot increase gives.

 

[Kimbere]

If you are going to do this, you HAVE TO remove the startup of enabling EF and NHB. If you are going to introduce a delay between shots, then give us back 3s of the boost. You had this before with NHB. It should be changed back to instant like other action boosts.

Yeah, removing the startup animation/delay from EF would be a decent olive branch.

 

[Synwell Thorne]

(bumping this so it ends up in the new posts for people)

So long as the adjustments don't gimp what is already a somewhat gimpy class, I'm good with it. Out of 17 toons, one is an Artificer.

 

[rabidfox]

, I'm hoping this will help deal with the "disappearing shot" scenario where the animation goes off but the bolt(s) disappear into the great unknown

I watched entire volleys of 3 shots just vanish over and over; so nope, neither these changes nor the 64-bit server helped with that.

after testing this on a level 4 arti it feels rough and sluggish at early levels even with rapid shot and rapid reload.

Yeah, it felt meh with level 4 I tried too.

 

[Triaxx2]

So, having taken the testing out of the Dojo and into Sharn Welcome, my favorite testing quest, Inquis feels... not bad to play, but it certainly feels different to what I just played a few days ago when taking the same character from 32-34.

I'm not sure that Rapid Reload needs to change Dual shooters rate of fire as much as it is. Maybe dropping it to 30% instead would feel better. As is it feels like it's falling off a cliff instead of being a slight nerf. (I think it's doing more damage over all but Inquis's strength is in it's rapid animation cycle letting me change targets quickly.)

 

[Benihina]

This is sad news indeed.
I have almost all past lives and now play exclusively x-bow builds because it feels fast and fun.
For the last 2 years i play only x-bow builds with different flavors because its fun to me. If these changes made through, then it would be truly tragic from my point of view. Heroic levels is going to be slow and boring.
Maybe its not so bad, i would be force to quit DDO and do something else.

 

[DBZ]

No foot in this race but wow MORE MASSIVE NERFS that aren't even needed while melees dominate the entire game

 

[Kipp]

The problem with this change is that you cant really get any meaningful amount of doubleshot at low level, so its a flat out nerf for most of heroic. Going from 6% to 12% doubleshot for inquisitive isnt going to be enough to offset the nerf.

 

[Tanis]

The new double shot increase is going to be awesome.

It’s a return to how double shot worked before the nerf

Back when double shot on Repeater could produce 6 separate hits

They have admitted that it will again be a nerf to procs for these builds and as before I’d suggest that any hit that is a double should proc twice if it procs to bring that back to balance

It’s yet to be seen how the nerf & buff balance out

 

[Sturmbb]

The problem with this change is that you cant really get any meaningful amount of doubleshot at low level, so its a flat out nerf for most of heroic. Going from 6% to 12% doubleshot for inquisitive isnt going to be enough to offset the nerf.

As far as im concerned ranged at low level is alot more powerful than melee. Especially if your using repeaters. Normally when im playing melee at low level i hardly get to swing my sword before mobs are taken out by ranged characters. This may change as the levels get higher.

If all of these changes reduce the lag problem, than i'm all for it. The lag really is getting ridiculous now. I am happy even if they nerf the characters i normally play, if it helps with reducing the lag. Combatting the lag is the number one priority at the moment.