U70 Preview 2: Performance Adjustments to Repeating+Dual Crossbow Styles

[Tanis]

I have. It comes out slightly higher overall at the moment in a pure DPS race, though like anything, actual gameplay and builds make that measure more complex - Hence why we're looking closely at today's gameplay.

I can say what I like about it is it will make things like Epic past life double shot & reaper double shot better for repeaters which it was painful to only get the 3rd value out of


Be testing later playing on live first to post opinion

 

[Valerianus]

Hello, all!

(snip)

@SteelStar i thank you and i thank the ssg team for your work.

i can't comment or test these changes cause i'm not competent enough but i'd like to contribute with some humble creative brainstorm, different approach, that imho makes sense.

why the problem lies within dual and repeater shooting? what do they have in common that other ranged don't?

ammo

in game they generally use stacks of 1000 conjured bolts opposed to returning ammo like archers and throwers (edge case, great crossbow users but they shoot only once)

this is imho weirdly relevant cause inventory access and weight, or at least that what my funny brain says.

you shoot ammo, i guess.....the game checks if you have it, access inventory to destroy one and send the info to our client, and since ammo has weight, it gets re-adjusted and it sends this info too to our client and probably checks too if changed something related to light\medium\heavy load.....and on and on and on dual or repeater\expanded clip times fusillading.

these operations don't happen with returning ammo e.g. arcane archer thing\thrower, it seems like weight is unaffected, and anyway, no need to go into your inventory to destroy things, unless behind the scene the game is destroying the ammo and making us re-loot it out of thin air without telling us....but even if, the point partially stands, even if it is happening it looks like it does not get communicated our client.

all those operations....were ok in an older slower ddo but nowdays can't keep up? are supposed to be ok but maybe they are not and maybe never were?


may i humbly suggest to internally test 3 scenarios?

an expanded clipped repeater fusillading gatling-gunned rambo mode arti with 1-a regular stack of bolts VS 2-same, but a bolt has zero weight VS 3-something like the everstar equipped, returning ammo.


thank you for reading


(anyway, in a mmo, imho, ammo counting and encumbrance should not be a thing....and the same reasoning i made for ammo can be made for spell material components)

 

[Rincewind]

Bow need love too, but also dual crossbow is getting the worst part of this change, and is already behind repeater, can we have a bonus to doubleshot too somewhere as Expanded Clip? plz

 

[Kipp]

As far as im concerned ranged at low level is alot more powerful than melee. Especially if your using repeaters. Normally when im playing melee at low level i hardly get to swing my sword before mobs are taken out by ranged characters. This may change as the levels get higher.

If all of these changes reduce the lag problem, than i'm all for it. The lag really is getting ridiculous now. I am happy even if they nerf the characters i normally play, if it helps with reducing the lag. Combatting the lag is the number one priority at the moment.

I can clear most quests a lot faster on melee than i can on an inquisitive due to aoe, though I can get the most kills in a group because ranged is fast and is good at sniping kills. The kill meter is not a good way to judge performance of builds when you have low past lives/gear/experience because it favours fast attacking weapons that can snipe kills more than it does slow, hard hitting ones (unless you one shot the enemies). The problem is that inquisitive doesnt really need a nerf, its just getting one because it will affect performance. I have no idea about repeater crossbows because I dont play arti but while inquisitive is good, its not op and in need of a nerf, it is getting a nerf for other reasons.

Just because a playstyle gets more kills than you personally, doesn't mean it needs a nerf, that is a really weird way to approach it. Ultimately this is a bad change for heroic leveling and since the game mostly revolves around people leveling, that is a pretty big problem.

 

[SteelStar]

Thank you for the feedback so far! Here's a few adjustments we're considering based on feedback here, on the official Discord, and on Cormyr itself so far:

Battle Engineer

• Shatter Defenses' damage changes to +10/30/50%
• Thunder-Shock Weapon's damage changes to +50%
• Core 2 (ML3): Infused Weapons now grants +5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. (in addition to its current stuff)

inquisitive

• Core 2 (ML3): Hit the Streets now grants +5% Doubleshot. (in addition to its current stuff)
• Shoot First's damage changes to +40%
• Shoot Later's damage changes to +60%
• Shoot First and Shoot Later are now AOE Ranged Attacks and that shoot twice with Dual Crossbows

This should help alleviate some of the concerns that

• Some activated attacks don't feel as worth pushing due to the longer overall cycle - Upping their damage should help some
• Clearing trash is now slower - Again, upping the damage of existing AOEs and making some of the holdouts start being AOEs should help, though maybe not fill the entire gap
• Low level has little doubleshot in these builds - This adds two sources of 5% around level 3-4

 

[Kipp]

Thank you for the feedback so far! Here's a few adjustments we're considering based on feedback here, on the official Discord, and on Cormyr itself so far:

Battle Engineer

• Shatter Defenses' damage changes to +10/30/50%
• Thunder-Shock Weapon's damage changes to +50%
• Core 2 (ML3): Infused Weapons now grants +5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. (in addition to its current stuff)

inquisitive

• Core 2 (ML3): Hit the Streets now grants +5% Doubleshot. (in addition to its current stuff)
• Shoot First's damage changes to +40%
• Shoot Later's damage changes to +60%
• Shoot First and Shoot Later are now AOE Ranged Attacks and that shoot twice with Dual Crossbows

This should help alleviate some of the concerns that

• Some activated attacks don't feel as worth pushing due to the longer overall cycle - Upping their damage should help some
• Clearing trash is now slower - Again, upping the damage of existing AOEs and making some of the holdouts start being AOEs should help, though maybe not fill the entire gap
• Low level has little doubleshot in these builds - This adds two sources of 5% around level 3-4

Excellent changes, thanks a lot for listening!

 

[KylerrTheMajty]

But we will still get answer that it's all bc Twf is breaking game or Thf is breaking game or it's all bc caster crit or something else we all got that only to get nerf and not solve lag problem...

prophet

 

[FaceDancer]

Remove the initial delay to Endless Fusilade as well.

 

[Icebeast]

I think Summoner mentioned earlier about piggy-backing bolts off the first one shot.
Makes sense if the repeaters only fired one bolt but damage was x3.
To Hit rolls could be managed the same way. For example a roll of 2 could assume one bolt missed the other two hit so x2. A roll of one would mean 1 of 3 hit and x1 damage. Cut out all the extra bolts sticking out of the walls and ground
I'm sure there would be more math to it, but that would be a simple idea to cut out all the extra bolts flying.

 

[mikarddo]

Make EF and NHB start without the very long delay. That would make the rest much more acceptable and keep those builds fun to play.

 

[Baahb3]

Thank you for the feedback so far! Here's a few adjustments we're considering based on feedback here, on the official Discord, and on Cormyr itself so far:

Battle Engineer

• Shatter Defenses' damage changes to +10/30/50%
• Thunder-Shock Weapon's damage changes to +50%
• Core 2 (ML3): Infused Weapons now grants +5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. (in addition to its current stuff)

inquisitive

• Core 2 (ML3): Hit the Streets now grants +5% Doubleshot. (in addition to its current stuff)
• Shoot First's damage changes to +40%
• Shoot Later's damage changes to +60%
• Shoot First and Shoot Later are now AOE Ranged Attacks and that shoot twice with Dual Crossbows

This should help alleviate some of the concerns that

• Some activated attacks don't feel as worth pushing due to the longer overall cycle - Upping their damage should help some
• Clearing trash is now slower - Again, upping the damage of existing AOEs and making some of the holdouts start being AOEs should help, though maybe not fill the entire gap
• Low level has little doubleshot in these builds - This adds two sources of 5% around level 3-4

So what about removing the wind up of NHB and EF??? You are removing overall shots from it now, it does not seem in good faith that we also have the 3s wind up for it as well.

 

[shopach]

Thank you for the feedback so far! Here's a few adjustments we're considering based on feedback here, on the official Discord, and on Cormyr itself so far:

Battle Engineer

• Shatter Defenses' damage changes to +10/30/50%
• Thunder-Shock Weapon's damage changes to +50%
• Core 2 (ML3): Infused Weapons now grants +5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. (in addition to its current stuff)

inquisitive

• Core 2 (ML3): Hit the Streets now grants +5% Doubleshot. (in addition to its current stuff)
• Shoot First's damage changes to +40%
• Shoot Later's damage changes to +60%
• Shoot First and Shoot Later are now AOE Ranged Attacks and that shoot twice with Dual Crossbows

This should help alleviate some of the concerns that

• Some activated attacks don't feel as worth pushing due to the longer overall cycle - Upping their damage should help some
• Clearing trash is now slower - Again, upping the damage of existing AOEs and making some of the holdouts start being AOEs should help, though maybe not fill the entire gap
• Low level has little doubleshot in these builds - This adds two sources of 5% around level 3-4

As others have pointed out, the biggest problem with the idea behind this change isn't necessarily just the DPS loss (though that would absolutely be a deal breaker), even if you get the DPS right with tweaks like these you still face the same fundamental problem:

Ranged attacks get "dropped" all the time, for a variety of reasons. High attack speed helps to mitigate this loss, low attack speed exacerbates it. If you're attacking very quickly and one of your attacks doesn't do anything, it's not that big of a deal. If you're attacking more slowly, it becomes a bigger deal.

A great many players have voiced the opinion that the number 1, primary reason that they do not play ranged characters is because of dropped attacks. What you are proposing is going to exacerbate that.

Finally, like usually happens with these types of changes, you guys come up with a list of tweaks to a couple of things to compensate the loss, but leave out every other enhancement tree.

What about Mechanic? Yeah I know it's basically a meme tree at this point, but the Rogue Mechanic tree gives you proficiency with repeating crossbows in cores 3 and 4. Shouldn't their activated attacks receive compensation for this change? If they do, it's going to impact the balance of the other Mechanic builds as well. This tree has been left behind so many times throughout all the ranged changes I'm pretty sure at this point you guys have forgotten that it exists.

What about every other ranged attack in the game?
You can just take Exotic Weapon Proficiency for repeating crossbows, so every class can make use of them, not just Artificer. Similarly, every class can take Inquisitive, and active abilities that just specify that they are ranged attacks work with Dual Shooting. Should these other abilities receive buffs? If they do not, then they become relatively worse compared to the abilities that receive buffs here when used with Dual Shooting or Repeating Crossbows.

Examples that jump to mind (by no means meant to be an exhaustive list):
Knight of the Chalice: Exalted Shot, Exalted Smite (already bugged), and Avenging Shot
Deepwood Stalker: Aimed Shot, Merciful Shot, Leg Shot, Devastating Shot
War Soul: Radiant Flourish (Ranged), Divine Vessel (Ranged)
Kensei: Shattering Shot, A Good Death (Ranged), Deadly Shot

(To be clear, I'm not necessarily saying all these abilities should receive buffs, rather I'm trying to highlight that this change is not as simple as it seems on its face, and has much broader reaching effects on how builds weigh against each other in the game as a whole)

 

[Frostwulf]

They come with a good argument. Shooting like a machine gun causes lag sounds plausible.
I am willing to accept significant changes to my favorite playstyle if it reduces lag and remains viable and fun.

However i am EXTREMELY skeptical that this won't come with a major DPS nerf.

Maybe in the 90s... I'm wholeheartedly opposed to any reduction of any kind in anything because they have a proven track record that they do delicate changes with a sledge hammer.

 

[Hobgoblin]

not all with this, but maybe change conjure bolts to just a +1 100% returning bolt?

 

[Charnamarge]

In this case, the performance problem is due to the game mechanic: The rate of these ranged attacks being higher than what the servers and 20-year-old engine can handle. While there are certainly actions we're taking to improve the capacity of the game to handle things like this - 64-bit servers do help with this issue - They cannot fix the problem on their own. We could let the lag caused by this continue to affect players for much, much longer than this to get a hypothetical risky-but-broader engine change that could potentially handle those speeds, but instead we're looking at adjusting this now, with changes to offset the reduction in speed, to bring better performance fixes now instead of in the indeterminate future.

Hey Steel, I'm sure this has been touched on already but I wanna bump it and reiterate -

Back when you guys consolidated doublestrike/doubleshot, there were a lot of indirect nerfs made to builds that utilized the extra procs/stacks that came with those. Just to name a few - throwers gaining and keeping stacks of Archer's Focus, Cursed Maelstrom, and Reign (later changed) were all effects that directly impacted me at the time. I recall you talking about making adjustments to these effects in the case that they were less desirable or underperforming post-change, but to my knowledge the only effect that was touched was Maelstrom (which is still almost worthless on its own).

I'm all for making these sorts of changes for the sake of system stability, but I would seriously appreciate some buffs made to weapon proc rates that have been slowly getting chipped away over time.

Thanks again for all that you do.

 

[rabidfox]

As long as there's a ton of work being done, change fussilade/no holds barred to work like 10k stars; where they're no longer an action boost but a 30s uptime, 1 minute cooldown ability. So much of the damage for repeaters & dual xbows is dependant on fussilade burst and on longer raids they fall off hard without those charges.

 

[Frostwulf]

As far as im concerned ranged at low level is alot more powerful than melee. Especially if your using repeaters. Normally when im playing melee at low level i hardly get to swing my sword before mobs are taken out by ranged characters. This may change as the levels get higher.

If all of these changes reduce the lag problem, than i'm all for it. The lag really is getting ridiculous now. I am happy even if they nerf the characters i normally play, if it helps with reducing the lag. Combatting the lag is the number one priority at the moment.

This isn't because ranged is strong in terms of trees, it's "strong" because it can reach out and hit stuff while you have to walk to the enemy and smack them.
When talking about repeaters at low levels, all you need is one with an orange and red augment slot and you get 2d6 extra damage per shot with low level augments...

 

[Yamani]

inquisitive

• Core 2 (ML3): Hit the Streets now grants +5% Doubleshot. (in addition to its current stuff)
• Shoot First's damage changes to +40%
• Shoot Later's damage changes to +60%
• Shoot First and Shoot Later are now AOE Ranged Attacks and that shoot twice with Dual Crossbows

Should probably change both of these from "Ranged Attack" too "Light/Heavy/Dual Shooter Attack"

 

[rabidfox]

Should probably change both of these from "Ranged Attack" too "Light/Heavy/Dual Shooter Attack"

People already use those with other ranged weapons; so limiting them going forward wouldn't be something I'd want.

 

[Bjond]

I'd suggest keeping the 1/3 & 1/2 doubleshot scalars, reducing the rate, and adding base doubleshot increases at L1 and via the ranged feats to counteract the entire rate reduction.

Doing it this way will keep all levels of x-bow identical in DPS output and maintain current status quo for xbow at-cap gearing strategies. It will feel sluggish, but no extra rebuild is required by players.

X-Bow is not attractive (at all) for at-cap DPS. It's extremely attractive for sub-cap play. The current increase to 100% DS requires a massive regearing effort for x-bow to simply stay as good as it is now (but only at cap) while also heavily nerfing sub-cap.

You're basically destroying the best part of x-bow while working hard to keep the worst part the same and placing a massive regear effort on at-cap x-bow players.