U70 Preview 2: Performance Adjustments to Repeating+Dual Crossbow Styles

[ChickenMobile]

My concern is how cbows will change early game levels.
They already fire slow and it isn't possible to get much doubleshot til' later.

Going to do some testing levels 1-10 on Cormyr and compare to live (Iconic).

 

[Wini]

I was getting a break, but after seeing these changes, I think It will be be a longer one.

To me, this is a plain nerf, just like when old manyshot was gutted for the sake of performance, and we have seen the results.

X-bows are bad, but a guy throwing a million shurikens per second is all right?

Feeling very sad about this...

 

[Thar]

What about long/short bows. the damage is bleh AND attack speed is garbage. how about some adjustments to bring them up to crossbows as you can easily fire a bow faster in real life than a crossbow but not in ddo...

 

[WielderofGigantus]

What about long/short bows. the damage is bleh AND attack speed is garbage. how about some adjustments to bring them up to crossbows as you can easily fire a bow faster in real life than a crossbow but not in ddo...

What do you mean the damage is bleh? I'm playing a Dark Hunter-Shiradi bow user, and I am out DPSing my partner who is playing a H-Elf Lightning Cleric.

Manyshot, Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot all give bows extra damage over other ranged weapons.

 

[Dom]

What do you mean the damage is bleh? I'm playing a Dark Hunter-Shiradi bow user, and I am out DPSing my partner who is playing a H-Elf Lightning Cleric.

Manyshot, Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot all give bows extra damage over other ranged weapons.

Ahh yes, your dark hunter bow user does more damage than a garbage caster cleric build. Good argument.

 

[droid327]

This looks like a huge net gain for DXB, and has a lot of the sorely needed updates that I've been calling for, so I definitely think this is a positive change. Excited to eventually try out my Wiz PM Inqui, whenever i come back to playing the game.

 

[canicus]

I am very excited for the aoe add to Inquis. Also, I'm not sure if this got mentioned, but the game on Cormyr is showing doubleshot above 100

 

[Stoner81]

Thank you for the feedback so far! Here's a few adjustments we're considering based on feedback here, on the official Discord, and on Cormyr itself so far:

Battle Engineer

• Shatter Defenses' damage changes to +10/30/50%
• Thunder-Shock Weapon's damage changes to +50%
• Core 2 (ML3): Infused Weapons now grants +5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. (in addition to its current stuff)

inquisitive

• Core 2 (ML3): Hit the Streets now grants +5% Doubleshot. (in addition to its current stuff)
• Shoot First's damage changes to +40%
• Shoot Later's damage changes to +60%
• Shoot First and Shoot Later are now AOE Ranged Attacks and that shoot twice with Dual Crossbows

This should help alleviate some of the concerns that

• Some activated attacks don't feel as worth pushing due to the longer overall cycle - Upping their damage should help some
• Clearing trash is now slower - Again, upping the damage of existing AOEs and making some of the holdouts start being AOEs should help, though maybe not fill the entire gap
• Low level has little doubleshot in these builds - This adds two sources of 5% around level 3-4

Seems like you missed out the parts where you give Inquisitive their Imbue Dice back that you took away from us. Since we can't attack as fast any more then there shouldn't be an issue. Secondly, and most importantly... please remove the dumb ass wind up animation from No Holds Barred and Endless Fusillade!. If not then make the duration of the buff longer to compensate. It's a 18 second buff and we lose 3 seconds or more waiting for it to bloody start!

EDIT - Please reduce the cooldown of Shoot Later to 12 seconds.

Stoner81.

 

[Tanis]

Seems like you missed out the parts where you give Inquisitive their Imbue Dice back that you took away from us. Since we can't attack as fast any more then there shouldn't be an issue. Secondly, and most importantly... please remove the dumb ass wind up animation from No Holds Barred and Endless Fusillade!. If not then make the duration of the buff longer to compensate. It's a 18 second buff and we lose 3 seconds or more waiting for it to bloody start!

Stoner81.

Yes to remove the wind-up

If we are to expect imbue to be on par it either needs to double with doubleshot or just give more dice at each point where dice are given

Increase dice step up count help

 

[Epicsoul]

after testing this on a level 4 arti it feels rough and sluggish at early levels even with rapid shot and rapid reload.

I believe the base rate of bow attack speed was adjusted in the bow balance. Maybe they could do the same here.

As long as there's a ton of work being done, change fussilade/no holds barred to work like 10k stars; where they're no longer an action boost but a 30s uptime, 1 minute cooldown ability. So much of the damage for repeaters & dual xbows is dependant on fussilade burst and on longer raids they fall off hard without those charges.

I'm happy with the changes overall, but I would like to see something like this.

 

[PurpleTimb]

Please consider increasing the proc rate of Shiradi Prism stance to adjust for this slower attack speed.

 

[Phaedra]

While we know that such a change will reduce the rate at which these styles build up debuffs and other procs, they are already relatively efficient at applying them relative to other builds and will continue to be, though to a lesser degree, after this change. If needed, we will adjust before U70 or in followup patches to ensure these styles continue to be viable.

I couldn't find an answer anywhere else, so just to be clear, doublestrike/doubleshot only doubles damage, and doesn't double any other effect applications (debuffs and procs that don't deal direct damage), correct?

That all said, here is the list of changes present in this build:

• We have removed the -66% Doubleshot Modifier from Repeating Crossbows and the -50% Doubleshot Modifier from Dual Crossbows.
• The timing between each shot on Repeating Crossbows, as well as the timing in each volley before the Reload portion starts, has been increased slightly.
• The baseline (usually invisible to players) attack speed of Repeating and Dual Crossbows has been reduced slightly.
• Rapid Reload's bonus for Light Repeating Crossbows has been reduced from 65% to 35%
• Rapid Reload's bonus for Heavy Repeating Crossbows has been reduced from 70% to 40%.
• Rapid Reload's bonus for all Dual Crossbows has been reduced from 40% to 20%.
• The bonus to Reload Speed from Rapid Shot for Repeating and Dual Crossbows has been reduced.
• When running Endless Fusillade, Repeating Crossbows now have a slight pause between each 3-shot volley to allow the server room to breathe a little
• Inquisitive's T5 Paths now grant +15% Attack Speed and +15% Doubleshot (replacing the previous +30% Attack Speed).
• The Expanded Clip Epic Feat was a significant contributor to the rate of fire performance problems with Repeating Crossbows. It no longer adds an extra shot, and instead grants +33% stacking Doubleshot with Repeating Crossbows.

-------------------

EDIT:
Thank you for the feedback so far! Here's a few adjustments we're considering based on feedback here, on the official Discord, and on Cormyr itself:

Battle Engineer

• Shatter Defenses' damage changes to +10/30/50%
• Thunder-Shock Weapon's damage changes to +50%
• Core 2 (ML3): Infused Weapons now grants +5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. (in addition to its current stuff)

inquisitive

• Core 2 (ML3): Hit the Streets now grants +5% Doubleshot. (in addition to its current stuff)
• Shoot First's damage changes to +40%
• Shoot Later's damage changes to +60%
• Shoot First and Shoot Later are now AOE Ranged Attacks and that shoot twice with Dual Crossbows

This should help alleviate some of the concerns that

• Some activated attacks don't feel as worth pushing due to the longer overall cycle - Upping their damage should help some
• Clearing trash is now slower - Again, upping the damage of existing AOEs and making some of the holdouts start being AOEs should help, though maybe not fill the entire gap
• Low level has little doubleshot in these builds - This adds two sources of 5% around level 3-4

At low levels, 20% (dual) and 30% (repeating) increased reload times, are supposed to be balanced by a 5% increase to doubleshot and a "slight increase to baseline speed". Hopefully this isn't a stealth nerf to crossbows at low levels, but out of curiosity how is the attack speed intended to compare with throwers and bows?

Is there any hope that this change will help with the number of shots that disappear into the aether?

 

[shopach]

The Expanded Clip Epic Feat was a significant contributor to the rate of fire performance problems with Repeating Crossbows. It no longer adds an extra shot, and instead grants +33% stacking Doubleshot with Repeating Crossbows.

I just wanted to note that this is a substantial nerf just on the numbers, without even looking at on-hit procs and the like, even though on the surface it may seem like it's commensurate. E.g. adding an extra shot is +33% damage, adding 33% doubleshot is also +33% damage. The problem comes in because the extra shot is +33% damage after doubleshot is taken into account, where +33% doubleshot is +33% damage before doubleshot is taken into account.

For a simple thought experiment, consider an artificer with the old and new expanded clip feat with 100% doubleshot:

Old: 4 attacks at 100% doubleshot = 8 attacks
New: 3 attacks at 133% doubleshot = 7 attacks (3 guaranteed double hits is 6, and an average of one additional hit from the 33% over 3 attacks)

It gets worse as you scale up doubleshot, with 300% doubleshot:

Old: 4 attacks at 300% doubleshot = 16 attacks
New: 3 attacks at 333% doubleshot = 13 attacks

 

[FaceDancer]

This is just me and very unscientific, but just commenting on the feel of this. I was using a (light) repeater and the rate of fire felt constipated. Definitely didn't have that chirp-chirp-chip sound/feel that my partner really hates (which makes me sad).
It's more of a chug... chug... chug.. thing now. :confused:

Fusilade used to be kinda buttery, now it's peanut-butter with extra chunks. Great X-bow felt nicer/smoother (maybe its just a timing/pulse kinda thing on repeaters, but it's less nice *meh*).

Damage seemed okay, and proc rate didn't seem horrible (but I wouldn't be sad if you increased it!)

P.S. I'm with Epicsoul & rabidfox in regards to fixing Fusilade make it mo'betta!

 

[Tanis]

Please consider increasing the proc rate of Shiradi Prism stance to adjust for this slower attack speed.

Price rates should have already been adjusted when they turned doubleshot into double damage instead of two separate hits

Long overdue

 

[Rincewind]

Price rates should have already been adjusted when they turned doubleshot into double damage instead of two separate hits

Long overdue

My guess is that they can't separate the proc rate of shiradi in a way that feels balance to them, either range/caster or just between different kinds of weapons that they feel the need to keep it nerfed.

 

[Randomdude1223]

For a simple thought experiment, consider an artificer with the old and new expanded clip feat with 100% doubleshot:

Old: 4 attacks at 100% doubleshot = 8 attacks
New: 3 attacks at 133% doubleshot = 7 attacks (3 guaranteed double hits is 6, and an average of one additional hit from the 33% over 3 attacks)

It gets worse as you scale up doubleshot, with 300% doubleshot:

Old: 4 attacks at 300% doubleshot = 16 attacks
New: 3 attacks at 333% doubleshot = 13 attacks

4 attacks at 100% doubleshot result in eight attacks isn't accurate. Prior to this update, repeaters incurred a penalty where only 33% of their total doubleshot applied.

Seems like you missed out the parts where you give Inquisitive their Imbue Dice back that you took away from us. Since we can't attack as fast any more then there shouldn't be an issue. Secondly, and most importantly... please remove the dumb ass wind up animation from No Holds Barred and Endless Fusillade!. If not then make the duration of the buff longer to compensate. It's a 18 second buff and we lose 3 seconds or more waiting for it to bloody start!

EDIT - Please reduce the cooldown of Shoot Later to 12 seconds.

Stoner81.

This update significantly enhances the effectiveness of the doubleshot, impacting the scaling of imbue dice. Additionally, while the removal of the animation during the initialization of fusilade action boost is welcome, your phrasing could be better.

 

[Randomdude1223]

With these changes you have to increase the chance for Shiradi procs to proc or these ranged builds will loose a lot more than the doubleshot increase gives.

I don't know if shiradi probs are affected by doubleshot (I think not?)
If they could benefit from doubleshot that would help with this problem

 

[Bitss]

I don't care about speed. I just want my shots to land when I am very definitely targeting the monster. Can "we" accomplish that?

 

[Guntango]

:ROFLMAO:

I have. It comes out slightly higher overall at the moment in a pure DPS race, though like anything, actual gameplay and builds make that measure more complex - Hence why we're looking closely at today's gameplay.

In case you missed it, champ.