U70 Preview 2: Performance Adjustments to Repeating+Dual Crossbow Styles

[Bitss]

In case you missed it, champ.

yeah. got it now, cupcake.

"The rate of these ranged attacks being higher than what the servers and 20-year-old engine can handle."
good thing they know this now since they intro'd Arti, dual-xbows, and a TON of other things. Guess that's how discovery works when they can't keep people or don't have people to work with and understand what's there. *Will always happen when profit rule.
:ROFLMAO:

 

[Mindos]

I don't care about speed. I just want my shots to land when I am very definitely targeting the monster. Can "we" accomplish that?

They should add a sound effect when your repeater doesn't hit anything: Plink Plink Plink - Woosh Woosh Woosh

 

[Bitss]

They should add a sound effect when your repeater doesn't hit anything: Plink Plink Plink - Woosh Woosh Woosh

I'm cool with the repeater missing a shot -it's a lot of firing - I really hate when my runearm fails

 

[FaceDancer]

A lot of rune arms fail these days... :confused:

 

[Foaly's_Pub]

Speaking as someone who has consistently brought and made it to end game with Ranged DPS Dual crossbow and my Arty ranged tank on hardcore and has been tweaking 2 of my slap together HC range builds for the last 5 seasons one of the main things I'm noticing is the damage going out is not as fast as the bolts going out..
My findings on live in the quote box

1. Damage tracking:
   1. at level 14+ my attack speed is high enough that I'm Firing with dual crossbows so fast that usually 3+ sets of the animation and bolts are displayed and removed from my count but not tracked
   2. at 7+ my attack speed is high enough that on my Arty repeater build that over time i'm firing more bolts than what is actually hitting (this is only counting bolts that are subtracted from my count) so even ones that are on a stationary target like the dummies on live are missing 4-7+ sets of bolts but are not even registering as misses but straight up MIA from the damage notifications as I level up and my attack speed gets even higher over longer fights with larger mobs at higher levels its even worse in mid epics and beyond in both cases.
   3. When Hard/soft target swapping in the middle of combat Voiles of bolts are lost for about 2-6 sets before being registered
2. Damage Output
   1. Due to the range damage pass where ranged damage buffs like Elemental weapons/law dice/poison imbue (from Alchemist) were put into Dice (to my understanding it scales with spell power/range power Depending could be wrong) we are relying on Added damage types like Elemental weapons to add to our damage out put.
      1. typically on my set up its Base Named item effects + Spell dice + Augment + Rune arm + enhancement tree (if dual cross bow and/or alchemist)
   2. With the attack speed issue on range speed where we have multiple class, gear/weapon, past life and/or tome bonus we Far exceed what SHOULD be put out running into the damage tracking issue on this point as even my main as stated in Point 1 is attacking TOO fast for it to be tracked.
3. Damage scaling(1) {solo Difficulty 1 being Easy 5 being medium 8 Elite raid but manageable not impossible 10 its gonna SUCK if not impossible without massive knowledge)
   1. in early game 1-8
      1. there is no issue Ranged damage has a HIGH advantage in survival in the early game casters are your main issue
      2. solo Difficulty 1/10
   2. mid game10-14
      1. Damage is still no issue here as most mobs don't have HP bloat till much later casters are still your bain
      2. you are starting to see an early drop in kill speed
      3. solo Difficulty 1.8-3/10
   3. High heroic 16-19/20
      1. Damage is HIGH but enemies are starting to see HP bloat not massive but its there
      2. You are also starting to see Much longer kite times in certain quests but its manageable
      3. Weapon buffs are a high recommendation in this range
      4. solo Difficulty 3/10
   4. early- mid epic 21-25
      1. Damage has seen a boost but mobs have adjusted also HP bloat is noticeable
      2. Fight times vary but not much change from late heroic
      3. Weapon buffs are REQUIRED Damage is starting to Drop off without enhancements and boosts
      4. solo Difficulty 5/10
   5. late Epic's-legendary 28-32+
      1. HP Bloat is constant
      2. Fight times are varying but can drag out in Boss fights and large groups for minutes or longer
      3. Weapon buffs REQUIRED, Damage has seen a noticeable-Massive Drop in relation to Mob HP growth
      4. solo Difficulty 7-9/10

(1) you can make the argument this doesn't have relevance and to an extent I agree how ever we are talking about Proper specialist builds that have Help from other players at that point What I'm bringing up is Generalities from my experiences on HC and as I've been trying to tweak my 3 crossbow builds as a Solo R5+ player who Doesn't run with groups normally with the builds I bring to HC and the Damages I'm seeing as well as issues I'm seeing. So take this as a personal experience NOT as a hard issue.

These are my Findings as someone who has Played- Ranged crossbow trapper builds, Caster trappers, and Warlocks, and Straight DPS/nuker Casters. (tried melee its not my strong point but i'm below average- slightly above)

So take that as you will with a grain of reasoning as again I'm a Solo reaper player on Elite my range builds and my casters/locks will bulldoze most quests no issue I'm speaking to Reaper and Reaper only. Now am I an EDGE CASE with out a doubt but its somethings I've seen as I Level and Tweak my builds Slightly as I slowly play now days. I'm Far more active during HC seasons then I am in the off season but I still play though more casually.

Even my crew when we did play were far to strong for elite in our own rights requiring R2-3 at a min to even require us to slightly care what has in front of us even as we Solo'd requiring R4 or higher to get us to pay attention but we have a massive log of build experience and game knowledge to fall on were I'm probly one of the most experienced of the group when it comes to quests especially OLD content and I just Slapped together ok builds to give to my crew that I have also used and we each tweak them as we see fit to fit how we play some more aggressive then others when it comes to a class I don't know very well I will ask my crew for a build or advice on theory crafting builds.

That is to say I know what MY builds can do currently. This isn't an End all Be all Solo R10 player (yet I'm slowly getting there) perspective but someone who knows how their builds work and consistently solos R5-6 on my mains and R2+ on a Fresh HC from level 2+

would love to hear other players perspectives.

 

[Bitss]

[]

would love to hear other players perspectives.

Heya - I'm more upset about my 1 Rune Arm charge misfiring

 

[Foaly's_Pub]

Heya - I'm more upset about my 1 Rune Arm charge misfiring

i've noticed that Super rarely but its not something I Use often either

 

[Bitss]

i've noticed that Super rarely but its not something I Use often either

Not super-rarely for Henkle... happens a lot. :(

*The rune arm misses way too much considering I get a chance 1/8 the time of xbow shots.
This includes other triggers that do not.

 

[Tanis]

I'm cool with the repeater missing a shot -it's a lot of firing - I really hate when my runearm fails

No
no at all shots should fire into nothing repeater or runearm


Btw shots still fire into nothing in testing

 

[Foaly's_Pub]

No
no at all shots should fire into nothing repeater or runearm


Btw shots still fire into nothing in testing

i've noticed my rune arm not tracking as well but again I Mainly use my run arms for Effects more so then the damage to do.

 

[Shear-buckler]

member old Tempest 1, old Zeal, old Wind Stance, and old Ftr capstone, how nerfing those reduced lag?

yeah me neither

That is a very selective memory you have there. Those changes made a big difference to the DPS lag back then.

 

[Tanis]

Hello, all!

Part of our focus in Update 70 has been tracking down performance issues, and in this preview we'll be looking at a change meant to address one of the more common player reports related to performance: Repeating and Dual Crossbow attack speed.

After investigation, even without running Endless Fusillade/No Holds Barred, the current rate of fire does seem to have negative impacts on the client, the server, and other nearby players when used by builds that are fully kitted out. Fusillade only exacerbates this, but it in and of itself is not the root of the issue (which is why simply adjusting Fusillade would not be a sufficient fix).

In this Preview, we've taken some measures to slow down both of these styles' attack and reload speeds. To try and maintain the DPS of these styles, we have balanced this change around a corresponding buff: We're planning to remove the current Doubleshot penalties (-66% on Repeating Crossbows, -50% on Dual Crossbows) with this change, allowing both to benefit from 100% of your Doubleshot score. In Update 49, we changed how Doubleshot works, making it much more performance-friendly for these styles to benefit from it now than it had been when they were originally developed.

We are definitely aware that changes to attack speed are difficult adjustments. Some players find a lot of fun in being able to shoot fast. However, the performance gains in such an adjustment are important game-wide, which is why we are looking into this change. Internally, the changes here make a significant difference in overall game performance, and we'll be looking to see if the same holds true during this preview. We strongly encourage those with Crossbow builds to try them out this Preview, as actual-play data will be the most important and actionable feedback on the subject.

While we know that such a change will reduce the rate at which these styles build up debuffs and other procs, they are already relatively efficient at applying them relative to other builds and will continue to be, though to a lesser degree, after this change. If needed, we will adjust before U70 or in followup patches to ensure these styles continue to be viable.

That all said, here is the list of changes present in this build:

• We have removed the -66% Doubleshot Modifier from Repeating Crossbows and the -50% Doubleshot Modifier from Dual Crossbows.
• The timing between each shot on Repeating Crossbows, as well as the timing in each volley before the Reload portion starts, has been increased slightly.
• The baseline (usually invisible to players) attack speed of Repeating and Dual Crossbows has been reduced slightly.
• Rapid Reload's bonus for Light Repeating Crossbows has been reduced from 65% to 35%
• Rapid Reload's bonus for Heavy Repeating Crossbows has been reduced from 70% to 40%.
• Rapid Reload's bonus for all Dual Crossbows has been reduced from 40% to 20%.
• The bonus to Reload Speed from Rapid Shot for Repeating and Dual Crossbows has been reduced.
• When running Endless Fusillade, Repeating Crossbows now have a slight pause between each 3-shot volley to allow the server room to breathe a little
• Inquisitive's T5 Paths now grant +15% Attack Speed and +15% Doubleshot (replacing the previous +30% Attack Speed).
• The Expanded Clip Epic Feat was a significant contributor to the rate of fire performance problems with Repeating Crossbows. It no longer adds an extra shot, and instead grants +33% stacking Doubleshot with Repeating Crossbows.

-------------------

EDIT:
Thank you for the feedback so far! Here's a few adjustments we're considering based on feedback here, on the official Discord, and on Cormyr itself:

Battle Engineer

• Shatter Defenses' damage changes to +10/30/50%
• Thunder-Shock Weapon's damage changes to +50%
• Core 2 (ML3): Infused Weapons now grants +5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. (in addition to its current stuff)

inquisitive

• Core 2 (ML3): Hit the Streets now grants +5% Doubleshot. (in addition to its current stuff)
• Shoot First's damage changes to +40%
• Shoot Later's damage changes to +60%
• Shoot First and Shoot Later are now AOE Ranged Attacks and that shoot twice with Dual Crossbows

This should help alleviate some of the concerns that

• Some activated attacks don't feel as worth pushing due to the longer overall cycle - Upping their damage should help some
• Clearing trash is now slower - Again, upping the damage of existing AOEs and making some of the holdouts start being AOEs should help, though maybe not fill the entire gap
• Low level has little doubleshot in these builds - This adds two sources of 5% around level 3-4

Here’s how I tested and my results

Solo R1 Mired in Kodolds

Using lvl 15 iconic same items & build on live & test server

Using only single target attacks no IPS or AOE activated attacks to gauge how fast the repeater could take down mobs 1 at a time with new changes

I also made sure to kill every trash mob between the start and the end skipped only the optional to keep the measurements standard I also shrined every time despite not needing it I wanted to have full boosts available in in fight


3 tests on each server
Results on live was 4:57 4:57 & 5:04
Results on test server was 6:30 6:43 6:25


What I noticed was that while the double shot was going off more it still was slower to kill mobs just by the rate of fire reduction

Mobs that were especially bad and really threw off the results on the test server was champs that had high miss chance dodge like the mabar as these just had to be fired on more at a slower rate

Endless cleared much more trash per boost on live due to rate of fire


I tests this way to see how the rate of fire really
changed


I did a test using the ranged AOE attacks on test server and was able to get a 5:05 run by grouping them and dumping multiple AOE on groups (I only did that test once I had had enough Kobolds for one testing by then
(It’s worth note I could have similarly used there AOE to bring down the time on live & I just might try that again when I’m feeling like


Reaper boost feels useful where before it was like a waste getting 1/3 benefits


Nice bonus for me is I had the curse which give 2% doubleshot so it’s really nice to get the full benefit from that



Side not I didn’t see the doubleshot increase in the tree I even reset and reallocated points so dunno if that didn’t make it into this update

 

[Teh_Troll]

All this game needs is a ranged BUFF!

Sigh . . .

 

[shopach]

4 attacks at 100% doubleshot result in eight attacks isn't accurate. Prior to this update, repeaters incurred a penalty where only 33% of their total doubleshot applied.

This update significantly enhances the effectiveness of the doubleshot, impacting the scaling of imbue dice. Additionally, while the removal of the animation during the initialization of fusilade action boost is welcome, your phrasing could be better.

That's true, and that's a good point to bring up, however the doubleshot changes are there to make up for the new penalty to attack speed.

Consider the following with 300% doubleshot (100% effective doubleshot on old):

Old: 4 attacks at 100% effective doubleshot: 8 attacks
New: 3 attacks at 333% effective doubleshot: 13 attacks.

Seems like a big win, however the 200% doubleshot gain in the new scenario is to make up for the attack speed penalty, and will presumably cancel out (speaking very broadly). So scenario 1's 4 attacks happen super quickly in sequence with other bursts, while scenario 2 is much slower.

For the purpose of comparing before and after for this one feat, we should not include the 200% difference in doubleshot because that change is there to solve the more general case of attack speed reduction, so again comparing the difference we end up with the same basic case for this specific feat change.

Old: 4 attacks, 100% effective doubleshot, 8 attacks
New: 3 attacks, 133% inflation-adjusted doubleshot, 7 attacks

In other words, the flux points are shifted, but the scaling remains the same.

 

[Nimrud]

In my opinion, this change unproportionally hits low level toons, and even more new players.

At low level, we will get all those attack speed penalties, while many changes that you planned (enhancement/feat buffs) are lvl 12+ or even epic.

It gets even worse for new players, who have no banked gear, doubleshot past lives or sometimes even DS guild buff. I mean, it's great that you double or triple doubleshot, but doubled 0% chance is still 0%, while all the penatlies to attack speed still apply.

Others have already highlighted the huge nerf to procs, so I'll skip it here.

Overall: I like that you are working towards minimizing lag, but that change needs to be modified. Right now the benefits don't balance out the nerfs.

 

[Jeronimo]

Hm... supposedly this might be a DPS boost for inquis imbue builds as imbue damage is affected by doubleshot.

It will be interesting to test it when it hits live.

 

[Stoner81]

4 attacks at 100% doubleshot result in eight attacks isn't accurate. Prior to this update, repeaters incurred a penalty where only 33% of their total doubleshot applied.

This update significantly enhances the effectiveness of the doubleshot, impacting the scaling of imbue dice. Additionally, while the removal of the animation during the initialization of fusilade action boost is welcome, your phrasing could be better.

I speak my mind. You don't like it then don't read it.

Stoner81.

 

[woq]

I watched a friend give it a shot on new guy with no past lives, no nothing on a new character and yeah. New characters got shafted.

I'm not really sure how this could be dealt with. I think the change is a net positive for cap play simply because the lag is that bad, but for newer characters in earlier parts of the game it is bad. Tumble helps.

Almost feels like there should be a very quick melee attack for crossbow users where they butt the enemy with it or a kick ability or something to make combat breathe a bit more early on. It looks incredibly monotonous and a lot of waiting involved in the play and doesn't really play to DDO's strengths of active action combat.

 

[Kipp]

Seems like you missed out the parts where you give Inquisitive their Imbue Dice back that you took away from us. Since we can't attack as fast any more then there shouldn't be an issue. Secondly, and most importantly... please remove the dumb ass wind up animation from No Holds Barred and Endless Fusillade!. If not then make the duration of the buff longer to compensate. It's a 18 second buff and we lose 3 seconds or more waiting for it to bloody start!

EDIT - Please reduce the cooldown of Shoot Later to 12 seconds.

Stoner81.

Maybe the duration is already extended to compensate. If they increased it by three seconds, in a few days/months/years someone would be like "Why do we not get all 21 seconds?!" So that isn't really a solution.

 

[Br4d]

For soloists ranged damage is already much too low and kill times are significantly below melee and DPS casters. Add this to the way that ranged kiting works and it is an impractical method to level a solo ranged character at anything more than a turtle's speed.

I would suggest upping base damage on all the xbows, bows and lowering attack rate on repeaters and dual xbows. I wouldn't do it via doubleshot because that adds another calculation into the chain and is invisible to the player in real time.

Then talents in a few trees can multiply damage x2 or even x3 with the proviso that those talents are only effective when the player is standing still and has been for at least 3 seconds (similar to how Archer's Focus works now but not on an incrementing basis, just a one-time bump.)

I would 100% get rid of Archer's Focus and any other talent that increments more than once for the condition of standing still. Replace them with a one time percentage bump that occurs after the player has been standing still for 3 seconds and fired a shot and still has a ranged weapon equipped in the primary hand.

I would zero out any ranged power adds that occur once a ranged weapon is no longer in the primary hand.

At some point we're going to have to deal with the fact that DDO is like an assembly line of power adds that reward nonsensical game play with tremendous power.