U70 Preview 2: Performance Adjustments to Repeating+Dual Crossbow Styles

[Kipp]

For soloists ranged damage is already much too low and kill times are significantly below melee and DPS casters. Add this to the way that ranged kiting works and it is an impractical method to level a solo character at anything more than a turtle's speed.

I would suggest upping base damage on all the xbows, bows and lowering attack rate on repeaters and dual xbows. I wouldn't do it via doubleshot because that adds another calculation into the chain and is invisible to the player in real time.

Then talents in a few trees can multiply damage x2 or even x3 with the proviso that those talents are only effective when the player is standing still and has been for at least 3 seconds (similar to how Archer's Focus works now but not on an incrementing basis, just a one-time bump.)

I would 100% get rid of Archer's Focus and any other talent that increments more than once for the condition of standing still. Replace them with a one time percentage bump that occurs after the player has been standing still for 3 seconds and fired a shot and still has a ranged weapon equipped in the primary hand.

I would zero out any ranged power adds that occur once a ranged weapon is no longer in the primary hand.

At some point we're going to have to deal with the fact that DDO is like an assembly line of power adds that reward nonsensical game play with tremendous power.

I think the main problem with solo ranged is a lack of aoe honestly, the actual damage is fine for the most part. The problem is that when ranged was conceived, the idea was that it would be more for sniping down strong targets from afar, while melee cleared trash and spellcasters healed/cc/buff/did some damage (spellpoints were a much bigger limit back then). Overtime this game has turned into Diablo and now we fight groups of 10-15 such that the ranged way of doing things still works reasonably well, but only if you have someone aoe in the party too. They added aoe ranged attacks but aside from artificer, these mostly suck. For example, the paladin ranged cleaves are fine in theory, but the problem is they only shoot 1 missile, regardless of weapon type employed and so while the skills look very similar to artificer, because you're doing 1 shot vs 4 shots, even with inquisitive it ends up being little better than just auto attacking. The aoe spread on these abilities also more or less require the enemies to be on top of each other, which is rare, and half the time the abilities just dont do anything.

 

[canicus]

Hello, all!

Part of our focus in Update 70 has been tracking down performance issues, and in this preview we'll be looking at a change meant to address one of the more common player reports related to performance: Repeating and Dual Crossbow attack speed.

After investigation, even without running Endless Fusillade/No Holds Barred, the current rate of fire does seem to have negative impacts on the client, the server, and other nearby players when used by builds that are fully kitted out. Fusillade only exacerbates this, but it in and of itself is not the root of the issue (which is why simply adjusting Fusillade would not be a sufficient fix).

In this Preview, we've taken some measures to slow down both of these styles' attack and reload speeds. To try and maintain the DPS of these styles, we have balanced this change around a corresponding buff: We're planning to remove the current Doubleshot penalties (-66% on Repeating Crossbows, -50% on Dual Crossbows) with this change, allowing both to benefit from 100% of your Doubleshot score. In Update 49, we changed how Doubleshot works, making it much more performance-friendly for these styles to benefit from it now than it had been when they were originally developed.

We are definitely aware that changes to attack speed are difficult adjustments. Some players find a lot of fun in being able to shoot fast. However, the performance gains in such an adjustment are important game-wide, which is why we are looking into this change. Internally, the changes here make a significant difference in overall game performance, and we'll be looking to see if the same holds true during this preview. We strongly encourage those with Crossbow builds to try them out this Preview, as actual-play data will be the most important and actionable feedback on the subject.

While we know that such a change will reduce the rate at which these styles build up debuffs and other procs, they are already relatively efficient at applying them relative to other builds and will continue to be, though to a lesser degree, after this change. If needed, we will adjust before U70 or in followup patches to ensure these styles continue to be viable.

That all said, here is the list of changes present in this build:

• We have removed the -66% Doubleshot Modifier from Repeating Crossbows and the -50% Doubleshot Modifier from Dual Crossbows.
• The timing between each shot on Repeating Crossbows, as well as the timing in each volley before the Reload portion starts, has been increased slightly.
• The baseline (usually invisible to players) attack speed of Repeating and Dual Crossbows has been reduced slightly.
• Rapid Reload's bonus for Light Repeating Crossbows has been reduced from 65% to 35%
• Rapid Reload's bonus for Heavy Repeating Crossbows has been reduced from 70% to 40%.
• Rapid Reload's bonus for all Dual Crossbows has been reduced from 40% to 20%.
• The bonus to Reload Speed from Rapid Shot for Repeating and Dual Crossbows has been reduced.
• When running Endless Fusillade, Repeating Crossbows now have a slight pause between each 3-shot volley to allow the server room to breathe a little
• Inquisitive's T5 Paths now grant +15% Attack Speed and +15% Doubleshot (replacing the previous +30% Attack Speed).
• The Expanded Clip Epic Feat was a significant contributor to the rate of fire performance problems with Repeating Crossbows. It no longer adds an extra shot, and instead grants +33% stacking Doubleshot with Repeating Crossbows.

-------------------

EDIT:
Thank you for the feedback so far! Here's a few adjustments we're considering based on feedback here, on the official Discord, and on Cormyr itself:

Battle Engineer

• Shatter Defenses' damage changes to +10/30/50%
• Thunder-Shock Weapon's damage changes to +50%
• Core 2 (ML3): Infused Weapons now grants +5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. (in addition to its current stuff)

inquisitive

• Core 2 (ML3): Hit the Streets now grants +5% Doubleshot. (in addition to its current stuff)
• Shoot First's damage changes to +40%
• Shoot Later's damage changes to +60%
• Shoot First and Shoot Later are now AOE Ranged Attacks and that shoot twice with Dual Crossbows

This should help alleviate some of the concerns that

• Some activated attacks don't feel as worth pushing due to the longer overall cycle - Upping their damage should help some
• Clearing trash is now slower - Again, upping the damage of existing AOEs and making some of the holdouts start being AOEs should help, though maybe not fill the entire gap
• Low level has little doubleshot in these builds - This adds two sources of 5% around level 3-4

I like a lot of the new changes. I am also concerned about lower levels. Would it be possible to get more imbue dice? Maybe in the early cores of Inquis and Battle Engineer? Also, maybe swap the position of Thundershock imbue and extra action boosts? Another thing tat could help is getting imbues to crit. (It is my understanding that imbue damage does not crit, if I'm wrong disregard)


On a second note, I would like to add to the calls for some kind of fix for the disappearing bolts (and arrows for that matter) that would go a long way in making these changes more palatable. In addition while on Cormyr this morning I ahve had Pin and Arrow of Discord fail to fire shots many, many times. They go on cooldown, but hit nothing. This would be something else that needs to be fixed. (I know this is not a new problem, but in light of the speed changes, these kind of frustrations with failed shots are only going to feel worse)

 

[EinarMal]

I have. It comes out slightly higher overall at the moment in a pure DPS race, though like anything, actual gameplay and builds make that measure more complex - Hence why we're looking closely at today's gameplay.

I would suggest the following changes after testing a repeater.

1. As many have stated, get rid of the windup on NHB and EF, given the slower attack speed this is not needed.
2. Change Caustic Shot to be AOE, with the decrease in attack speed repeaters need a 3rd AOE shot

 

[Randomdude1223]

I speak my mind. You don't like it then don't read it.

Stoner81.

Using profanity doesn’t strengthen your argument; it comes across as immature. There’s no need to get defensive. I do agree that the animation delay of Fusilade is somewhat frustrating. As for the imbue damage, could you clarify what you meant?

 

[John3000]

Hmmm... complicated balancing mess indeed.

Why not just keep abilities, feats and stuff as it is and :
* Divide by half the overall attack speed of Repeaters and X-Bows
* Increase the base damage by 100% (to simulate slow waves of bursts of missiles - restrict boost dmg to norm attacks if need be)
* Double Vorpal Strike proc range (i.e. 19-20) (to simulate some of those missiles proccing vorpal effects)
* Double all on attack/dmg proc rates of effects (3% -> 6%) (to simulate some of those missiles proccing effects)

seems balanced (aside from single one by one, one shot kills of squishy mobs....)

cheers

 

[Stoner81]

Using profanity doesn’t strengthen your argument; it comes across as immature. There’s no need to get defensive. I do agree that the animation delay of Fusilade is somewhat frustrating. As for the imbue damage, could you clarify what you meant?

• I don't care what you think. I am the way I am. I speak my mind. The end. Like it or lump it.
• Inquis has been nerfed multiple times prior to this one of which was having 3 or 4 Imbue Dice removed from the tree (maybe more I can't remember the exact figures). They should be put back. Every single nerf has been heavy handed and beyond dumb (and not just to Inquis) and very very very rarely is anything bumped up again.

Stoner81.

 

[Stoner81]

Maybe the duration is already extended to compensate. If they increased it by three seconds, in a few days/months/years someone would be like "Why do we not get all 21 seconds?!" So that isn't really a solution.

What I mean is to do whatever in order for us to get the full length of time of the buff. It would be like a Wizard casting Haste but the animation takes 3,000 years before it is finished but yet the timer starts from the second the cast starts. I would prefer them to just flat out remove the animation all together because then that should remove the possible issue as you describe.

Stoner81.

 

[bleach]

So instead of nerfing the most broken ranged build to ever walk eberron, that made any other ranged build obsolete, they are buffing it !

Brilliant...

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Double Vorpal Strike proc range (i.e. 19-20) (to simulate some of those missiles proccing vorpal effects)
* Double all on attack/dmg proc rates of effects (3% -> 6%) (to simulate some of those missiles proccing effects)

More proc = more calculations = more lag. It's why proc rate and DS was nerfedchanged 1st time, lol.

 

[I dont Like gimps]

2. Change Caustic Shot to be AOE, with the decrease in attack speed repeaters need a 3rd AOE shot

Yeah Nah u have Plenty Aoe with the 2 shots including a trip and in doubt turn on IPS

 

[I dont Like gimps]

Im not entirely sure if the 5% DS for Artificer is needed as Much as Id welcome it playing repeater the past 3 and prolly the next 3 months

On paper the dps took a hit due to less Bolts being fired (including Doubleshot couting bolts) but at the same time Special shots are Much much more stronger It essentially felt Like it Nullified the "loss"

New version honestly feels Like a buff because while Dps stays roughly the same Special attacks are now more reliable when it comes to quickly Killing Important targets aswell as

The big thing for me tho is the attack speed feels clunky/slow at times BUT due to the server having More time to register stuff etc Moments of : I killed Mob A and still spend like 3 Animations More because I cant tell if its alive or not Happen far less frequently Which is a HUGE QOL Buff
so basically I often Only shot maybe 3 instead of 12 bolts "too much"

TLDR : damage stays the same More Instakill threat but More clunky feel but lets shots wasted very welcome change

 

[Stoner81]

cant find the start of the convo etc and Im too lazy but
Have u tested Inquis on comyr? my repeater felt pretty much the same and inquis essentially Just got an additional Aoe
dunno How changes have Impacted Inquis

I haven't done no. I usually don't get chance to because of the dumb times they open the test server and only leave up for like a hour.

Stoner81.

 

[I dont Like gimps]

Hmmm... complicated balancing mess indeed.

* Divide by half the overall attack speed of Repeaters and X-Bows

its certainly complicated.... which explains why your idea isnt entirely thought thru
Attack speed does Nothing during Endless fussilade

* Increase the base damage by 100% (to simulate slow waves of bursts of missiles - restrict boost dmg to norm attacks if need be)
* Double Vorpal Strike proc range (i.e. 19-20) (to simulate some of those missiles proccing vorpal effects)
* Double all on attack/dmg proc rates of effects (3% -> 6%) (to simulate some of those missiles proccing effects)

Others commented on the problems of this

seems

good thing you arent a dev a lot of people seem and do but Not many Know

 

[I dont Like gimps]

I haven't done no. I usually don't get chance to because of the dumb times they open the test server and only leave up for like a hour.

Stoner81.

the server was Up for 22Hours or so lol all I can tell is there was No nerf to repeater at all but I dont make comments about Inquis without having tested it OR done the maths which is unreliable due to changes not being entirely lets say rigoros (looking at patience)

 

[Tanis]

the server was Up for 22Hours or so lol all I can tell is there was No nerf to repeater at all but I dont make comments about Inquis without having tested it OR done the maths which is unreliable due to changes not being entirely lets say rigoros (looking at patience)

There was definitely a nerf to repeaters in the attack speed

Buffs in damage didn’t make up for the slow attack speed

 

[Tanis]

For soloists ranged damage is already much too low and kill times are significantly below melee and DPS casters. Add this to the way that ranged kiting works and it is an impractical method to level a solo ranged character at anything more than a turtle's speed.

I would suggest upping base damage on all the xbows, bows and lowering attack rate on repeaters and dual xbows. I wouldn't do it via doubleshot because that adds another calculation into the chain and is invisible to the player in real time.

Then talents in a few trees can multiply damage x2 or even x3 with the proviso that those talents are only effective when the player is standing still and has been for at least 3 seconds (similar to how Archer's Focus works now but not on an incrementing basis, just a one-time bump.)

I would 100% get rid of Archer's Focus and any other talent that increments more than once for the condition of standing still. Replace them with a one time percentage bump that occurs after the player has been standing still for 3 seconds and fired a shot and still has a ranged weapon equipped in the primary hand.

I would zero out any ranged power adds that occur once a ranged weapon is no longer in the primary hand.

At some point we're going to have to deal with the fact that DDO is like an assembly line of power adds that reward nonsensical game play with tremendous power.

In my testing it wasn’t damage that really slowed down ranged it was rate of fire

 

[Zaszgul]

Part of our focus in Update 70 has been tracking down performance issues, and in this preview we'll be looking at a change meant to address one of the more common player reports related to performance: Repeating and Dual Crossbow attack speed.

What exactly makes projectiles so expensive? Are there any properties that can be streamlined, or assumed & removed?

 

[Taleisin]

Remove the initial delay to Endless Fusilade as well.

I completely agree. That initial hitch is such a feel bad!!!

 

[Daedricz-1]

As others have suggested please remove the windup on NHB and EF and give it a 20-second duration.

Bump up the radius a bit on AOE shots. Also, I feel like most of the time the shatter is absorbed by the ground instead of connecting with mobs in range or at least that's what I've noticed with Longbows.

Is there any chance Great Crossbow and Mechanic could be brought up to speed? Move Expert Builder to core 4, replace Time Bomb with an alchemical or ballista-themed Endless Fusilade, and add Improved Archer Focus to T5 Rapid Fire. Maybe also allow the extra threat and/or multi from Point Blank Shot and Combat Archer to apply to Great Crossbows as well?

 

[Rincewind]

I trully wish

Hm... supposedly this might be a DPS boost for inquis imbue builds as imbue damage is affected by doubleshot.

It will be interesting to test it when it hits live.

It is, i tested mine