u72.1 Full Review of Dragon Disciple + leveling build

[Flasko]

if you are only using handaxes, id recommend using an upgraded thunderholme one as it gets insane W. if you dont need just a handaxe, id recommend using a kukri or dagger and VKF. some ones to use: drow dagger, thunderforged kukri, the kukri from sentinels

Yeah those are some good options. Dino H-Axe made it 11 W.

 

[Frantik]

I've accepted a challenge [i read it as a challenge!] from YING to test the capstone (which i dished badly) so that's what i'm going to do. I read this thread, learned some stuff, questioned more, and consequently decided to do my own thing.

I really wanted to go T5 DI, but as a hybrid i'm loathed to spend 2 epic feats on the 2 ruins to make this work and am conscious of the cost. I also note the reserves on the DCs which (a) limits at what level i can run in epics, and (b) makes me cringe badly in anticipation.

Trailblazer 20 Dragon Disciple
First Lifer 32 point build 16/14/14/10/16/8
Trailblazer: 21 AP
DD : 41 AP
Shintao : the rest

THF x 3, precision, Improve Crit, Plowshares, Quicken, Maximize, Empower and SF: Conjuration
GSF: Conjuration, Perfect THF, Embolden, Doublestrike, Epic SF: Conjuration, Deific Warding, Wellspring of Power, Spell Speciality: Evocation, Scion of the Plane of Earth, Intensify, Titan's Blood

PA: T5 (acid, cold), primal spell (acid) and taking reduced cost metamagic abilities; 37 EDP
DI: T4 (acid), mantle and taking reduced cost Maximize; 30 EDP
FotW: enough to take Quick Cutter; 3 EDP

And here's the caveat; i'm planning to use Black Dragon Bolt as my big single target hitter using DI mantle and Evocation DCs. I know, I know!?

Acid as primary spell type, cold as secondary and both work nicely on reapers if i can ever manage to land them.

I'm expecting it to do ok-ish for the most part, but then again I'm generally not the brightest pea in the pod Will report back.

EDIT: I completely forgot that Black Dragon Bolt has no save, so that will simplify at least one facet.

Levelling 15-20; it became so much easier when I finally unlocked Hands of Healing; the build is AP heavy as T4 in Trailblazer is basically your 2nd tree until about level 18. But the cleave/trip attack makes the build in terms of melee. I ran HE exclusively solo and the SLA's worked just fine. Just hit 20, need to test the capstone ability.

 

[Ying]

GRuin/DI is only worth it if you're going to max out on spell crit, spell crit dmg and spellpower. If you're doing that, you're going to be crap with melee damage. If you want to GRuin/DI, go with a dedicated caster class instead.

 

[Flasko]

switching at end game i do better by losing the breaths. the damage is good, aoe cc is strong, self/group healing decent....clearing rooms at ease when off cooldowns

 

[Flasko]

https://imgur.com/RGt121u

little outdated but...

 

[Frantik]

Hi. Due to time constraints, I have only managed to get my new DDM to level 25, but I wanted to provide some subjective return in a timely fashion. I also need to mention Y1NG in both motivating me to build this toon and his challenging my dismissal (in a very friendly manner) of the DDM cap as totally correct [I may have used the term garbage].

I like DDM, and I've had some fun so far. I opted for a first lifer (no tomes) on Cormyr [for reasons] going Trailblazer and using the lesser HoW at 15 to respec. It is a 32 point build and I have 80+1+3 AP; 19 AP racial, 41 AP DDM, 22 AP Shintao provides +10 WIS, a decent melee cleave cc, deflect arrows and Hands of Healing. HoH really helps and once I finally got this ability it made life so much easier.

Build philosophy (meaning I actually put some thought into this) - hybrid with more focus on the caster side in order to make full use of the DDM tree:
- Conjuration x 3
- THF x 4
- Precision
- Quicken, Max, Empower (and now Embolden)
- Swords to Plowshares
- Improved Critical bludgeoning
- Doublestrike

The final 7 feats will be completely focussed on Casting and Defense, with the object to maximize Spell DCs and PRR/MRR etc.

I chose two spell elements, ACID and COLD, because I thought they would work well together, and so far they have even though I was disappointed that Forewraiths don't take extra damage from Cold (I never knewed dat?!). So Conjuration and Evocation DCs, right? Almost, but to slightly complicate life, I will add in Transmutation too:
- Primal Avatar (Thorn, Evocation) T5 forcing the choice of Legendary Feat to Scion of the Plane of Earth
- Draconic Incarnation (Acid, Conjuration) T4 taking the Wellspring buff
- 3rd core of GMoF for some low hanging, but extremely ripe, fruit

I did consider going GMoF T5 but without testing the options I erred to the side of caution concerning the spell DCs (I'll be taking Legendary SF: Evocation at level 31). I also toyed with the idea the PA mantle which would dramatically reduce the spell damage but would increase melee damage and make spell point management super easy; but I have stuck so far with my original plan and farmed a Ring of Spell Storing just in case (I got lucky)... though I am not sure if I will manage to farm the other item [necklace iirc] to complet the set, the items themselves not being that usefull but they do provide a very nice + to max MRR.

Spell-wise it's all four of the SLAs in both Acid and Cold forms on my main toolbar with 3 short keys for Carrion Swarm, Shard Storm and Black Dragon Bolt (no save); in fact I have 2 versions of BDB (so that's 4 shortkeys for you maths officendos), one simply quickened, and the other fully meta'ed (not including Embolden) for when I need it. Upgraded Draconic Mantle. The Capstone ability provides a 20 second window where the two best DDM SLAs deal double damage and as their CDs are approx. 17 seconds you can cast them twice... best reserved for a big fight or simply get into a routine of including it into your rotation (2 min CD). So far I haven't gotten used to systematically including it into my routine as I am not as spritely as I once was. I still find the cost, at 100 Ki, too much

Healing-wise, I have Light Hands, Rejuvenation Cocoon and Wholeness of Spirit. It's fine, it's actually better than fine!

Gear-wise, I farmed a six piece heroic Saltmarsh set (6 because I couldn't get everything I needed from only 5 items) which covers Acid and Cold spell power and crit, Conjuration and Evocation DCs and Attack and Defense bonuses. I'm planning to use these until end game when I will probably try and farm Vecna for either/both the 3 and 5 piece sets, opting for an IOD non-attuned Quarterstaff if I can ever get one to drop. I had an heroic Moonrise Bracers in my bank which I am still using and maye also try to farm the Legendary version. We shall see.

TL;DR. Dragon Disciple, IMHO, has been fun and solid so far from level 15-25 mostly running solo on HE and EE but also jumping in R1/R2 groups; oh boy, those Lanterns that spawn when fighting a boss or large group at the same time. I'm still learning as it's the very first time I've ever played a Monk. I think I am very happy with the simplifications to the Monk class that SSG have recently introduced [kudos to you]. Low level reapers are fine, big mobs are fine, champions and bosses are fine in general. When it all ticks, you cast Shard Storm, Haste and Displacement, charge in and use the low level SLAs for some more cc (Draconic Incarnation 6 sec paralyze) choosing the correct element to mximize damage, hack away with racial cleave and doublestrike ability from Shintao, mobs tends to dissolve fast. It's early days yet but so far I'm really enjoying it, and I think I cannot fully agree with the OP's analysis. Will update further down the road.

 

[Kimbere]

/snip

The Ugly​

• this build (and the archetype as a whole) is COMPLETELY unviable the moment you take 20. you are instantly worse than every caster and every melee. DO NOT LEVEL IN EPICS!
• /snip
• suffers from all the weaknesses hybrids normally do and more
• /snip
• my last 2 DD lives will be SDK kukri because that is more fun than this trainwreck

you can play it in epics. its just worse than pretty much everything else, so i wouldnt recommend it

I just finished my 3 PLs on DD. I have to agree with pretty much everything you said. There is too many goodies, but its spread way too thin. its mediocre at both spellcasting and melee, but it can do both. Early leveling was fun and easy, but that lasted only for a while. The higher you go, the more other classes just outclass this one. Oh well, coulda had a samurai :( womp womp

Thanks for this write up, and making sure to call out the bugs and cons. I've done the 3 PLs for DD and found much the same as your experience: great for heroics (but really, what isn't? you can run a gimp through heroics and not really feel it in most cases until you push skulls), but terrible in epics. Overall, you'd be better off doing HM over DD 100%.

Nailed it... just sayin'.

https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/u72-early-look-dragon-disciple-monk-archetype.16296/post-203585

/snip

Also, I'll reserve judgement for when it actually goes live but at a glance, this Dragon Disciple looks like a mediocre caster combined with mediocre melee and topped off with the bitter cherry of requiring Ki to use the SLAs which are the primary trait of the archetype.

Not sure if you've recently leveled a melee monk in heroics, but until mid to upper heroics, even full melee monks don't generate enough Ki to frequently use their Ki abilities. Current monks are effectively locked into Fire stance until mid heroics if they want to use Ki abilities, and even then you have to be choosy about which ones you cycle through.

So unless you've added a large amount of passive Ki regen that I missed in the notes, this thing will be stupidly Ki starved in lower heroics, which means it will primarily be a watered down melee monk until level 10+.

Ki generation is usually not a problem by the time you get to epic levels, but that's also on a monk that's meleeing constantly. I gather the point of the Dragon Disciple is that it is intended for the SLAs to be used as much as, if not more than melee. With effort, it probably can generate enough Ki to consistently use the SLAs once it hits epics, however, that is, ironically, right about the time the power of spells and SLAs start falling behind due to a lack of decent die scaling in Epics.

What that means (if I'm not wrong) is that this frakenstein will probably have about 5 levels where it's fun/good (15-20ish). It will struggle on the front end to generate enough Ki to consistently use the SLAs that make it unique and then it will struggle on the back end due to mediocre melee DPS combined with mediocre SLA DPS.

There's a risk here that the best way to run a Dragon Disciple for the PLs is to not run it like a Dragon Disciple and just go with a full melee DPS build instead.

This is why the devs should solicit (and more importantly, actually *listen* to) feedback from players regarding new class/archetype designs.

 

[sandwichy]

The Bad​

• fist of the dragon is completely useless
• the capstone ability is worthless as those buffs should have full uptime not whatever junk it is now (at least some of them)
• the spells do god awful damage towards end of heriocs
• the imbue dice is backloaded at 18/20 meaning you have very few dice for the majority of leveling
• not enough spell slots to take any variety of spells
• i feel staff HM would objectively level better than this and its a melee. what?
• the devestation and acolyte breath spells CD is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long.
• the extra ki weapons feels like a waste of time since pretty much all the weapon types granted are inherently bad
• clear your mind trance bug...
• the spellpower is a joke compared to EK (its less than half)
• the monk abilities have 1.5 minute cd when all others have 9 seconds. uh, why?

The Ugly​

• this build (and the archetype as a whole) is COMPLETELY unviable the moment you take 20. you are instantly worse than every caster and every melee. DO NOT LEVEL IN EPICS!
• remember how i talked about the DCs? well there is a catch. only breath weapon DCs actually land as the tree gives a ton of breath DCs. what this means is literately ANY spell in the spellbook that isnt a breath weapon is immediately useless as it is impossible to get the DC.
• all the spells are mcl 30... but there is no way to boost the CL beyond 20, let alone 30. how did this make it past lammania?
• no CC of any kind. literately not a SINGLE CC spell that will work (howl of terror is not a breath spell so...)
• the things DD loses to get the spellbook... isnt worth it as the spells suck. id take my regular monk with QP and whirlwind attack any day
• none of the ED trees even remotely support this abomination of a class
• no epic support of any kind feat wise (AW barely does anything)
• suffers from all the weaknesses hybrids normally do and more
• is objectively worse than EK in every single stat that matters on a hybrid.
• if not light monk you dont get any healing
• HM is arguably a better hybrid tree and you dont get it
• my last 2 DD lives will be SDK kukri because that is more fun than this trainwreck

Does this criticism still hold up? I've seen a couple recommendations for a pure 20 DDM for racial past life farming, and that epics are not as bad.

 

[Phoenicis]

Does this criticism still hold up? I've seen a couple recommendations for a pure 20 DDM for racial past life farming, and that epics are not as bad?

While most of those specific issues have been addressed, I've run a few DDM lives at this point, various builds, various weapons, various elements (though I always seem to favor acid).

They fall off in epics damage wise in my experience. Now, I'm not running full past lives or completely optimized gear so I'm likely missing alot of corrosion SP, spell crit, and what not. Still they feel behind other characters I've run with similarly non-optimized setups.

 

[sandwichy]

While most of those specific issues have been addressed, I've run a few DDM lives at this point, various builds, various weapons, various elements (though I always seem to favor acid).

They fall off in epics damage wise in my experience. Now, I'm not running full past lives or completely optimized gear so I'm likely missing alot of corrosion SP, spell crit, and what not. Still they feel behind other characters I've run with similarly non-optimized setups.

That's frustrating to hear. Hybrid tax is nothing new, and plagued WoW up until the game was homogenized, but to see it persist across games is disheartening. I'm all for playing what you want, but what I've distilled down is that effective classes feel more fun. Kinda why inquisitive is rampant despite several nerfs (and that one Past Life Getter post doing most of the hard work).

 

[Christhemiss]

Does this criticism still hold up? I've seen a couple recommendations for a pure 20 DDM for racial past life farming, and that epics are not as bad.

yup sadly

 

[Frantik]

Tabaxi Trailblazer DDM was OK imho, nothing amazing but fun with the extra speed, the T4 AoE and spamming Black Dragon Bolt versus Bosses. I specialized in acid+cold and also found that to be an effective combo.

 

[Christhemiss]

Does this criticism still hold up? I've seen a couple recommendations for a pure 20 DDM for racial past life farming, and that epics are not as bad.

sorry, should clarify. couple things have been fixed
clear your mind has been fixed
the monk abilities have the correct 9 second cd

 

[HeavyLobster]

I find it works well in epic if you build it right. I saw so many people with orbs/scepters and that is just going to be bad. You are not a caster. You pretty much have to use handwraps. If you have racial ap, dragonborn is the best choice and its not close. I preferred fire so I could go fury (quick cutter insanely op) draconic and angel. Angel mantle is chip aoe damage and makes shintao heal good for solo r1-3. Bonus points if you have epic red dragon helm for 3 caster levels. Spells hold up for aoe cc and finishing enemies off after qc.

 

[sandwichy]

I find it works well in epic if you build it right. I saw so many people with orbs/scepters and that is just going to be bad. You are not a caster. You pretty much have to use handwraps. If you have racial ap, dragonborn is the best choice and its not close. I preferred fire so I could go fury (quick cutter insanely op) draconic and angel. Angel mantle is chip aoe damage and makes shintao heal good for solo r1-3. Bonus points if you have epic red dragon helm for 3 caster levels. Spells hold up for aoe cc and finishing enemies off after qc.

That's a bit of what I was commenting on earlier: It seems your answer is that the monk part of the build works better, and the sorc part takes a backseat. My hunch was that it was supposed to be equal parts, but that the spells do not have enough support.

With that in mind, I was wondering if you could mix in Wild Mage with their t4 enhancement setting caster level to character level, then add Fire Savant core enhancements on top to get caster levels and max caster levels to scale the Fire SLA's(or whatever relevant element corresponding with the correct sorc tree). This would be mostly a leveling build, but something to push it through to 30.

 

[h46av8r]

That's a bit of what I was commenting on earlier: It seems your answer is that the monk part of the build works better, and the sorc part takes a backseat. My hunch was that it was supposed to be equal parts, but that the spells do not have enough support.

With that in mind, I was wondering if you could mix in Wild Mage with their t4 enhancement setting caster level to character level, then add Fire Savant core enhancements on top to get caster levels and max caster levels to scale the Fire SLA's(or whatever relevant element corresponding with the correct sorc tree). This would be mostly a leveling build, but something to push it through to 30.

Yes - you can use wild mage to multi class effectively - see https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/wild-dragon-build.16960/ for example. But that build does rely on having a decent number of racial AP to get the immunity stripping so you only have to work in gear for one spell type - in this case I went acid. Great for leveling up through and including end game R4 solo-ing. But certainly not end game meta.

 

[HeavyLobster]

It's not that the caster part takes a backseat, as the imbue and spells are essential for the build to function. It's just that you are explicitly not a full caster. You will not be standing in the back exclusively using spells, as I saw many people attempt to do. It is a hybrid, melee will be best for single targets and QC and spells are best for aoe.

 

[Frantik]

Yes - you can use wild mage to multi class effectively - see https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/wild-dragon-build.16960/ for example. But that build does rely on having a decent number of racial AP to get the immunity stripping so you only have to work in gear for one spell type - in this case I went acid. Great for leveling up through and including end game R4 solo-ing. But certainly not end game meta.

I do run WM immunity stripper builds but DDM doesn't require it. Take Black Dragon Bolt, your best single target damage spell, so go acid, and for those few occasions that acid is a no no, go cold. I love the freeze animation and the acid/cold choice means that you can damage any mob. If you have the racial ap, i strongly suggest trying out Tabaxi Trailblazer (q-staffs) which provides much utility.

(from memory)
Draconic Incarnation (acid, imbues, wellspring buff, T5 epic moment)
Primal Avatar (thorn, heart for healing - strike, primal - and mantle for mana and +3 imbue and 3 melee damage procs including acid)
Shadow Dancer (3rd core, immunity to energy drain and extra reflex)

SF, GSF and ESF conj, then Spell Speciality evo. I didn't take Ruin or Greater Ruin. Black Dragon Bolt fully meta'ed spam on bosses.

 

[NotSteve]

A sleeper ED for DDM is magus if you go cold damage, chill aura giving a mantle proc on all nearby enemies in melee range every 6 seconds and the epic strike covers one off the weaknesses of the class which is having to rely on shurikens for range. Cold Side of the moon also giving a small arena to fight in for extra cold damage.

Used a epic frozon tunic the whole way when trying magus for 20-30