U72 Early Look 2: Monk Revamp

[SteelStar]

Thanks everyone for participating in this feedback cycle! The Monk Revamp has moved to Lamannia, where an updated version of this pass can be found here: https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/u72-preview-1-monk-class-changes.16842/​

Old OP perserved below:

Hello, everyone! Thank you for your feedback on the first look at the Monk Revamp. We've put together some revisions based on your feedback, and would like further discussions to continue with them in mind, so we've made a new thread. The changes from the last thread are below, then the original thread is reposted with things new to this thread's version in orange.

Changes from the previous thread:​

Shintao

• Deft Strikes is now a multiselector with Improved Second Strikes:+[5/10/20]% Strikethrough.
• Kukan-Do's cooldown has been put back to its Live value.

Ninja Spy
Feedback indicated that Ninja Spy needed the most out of these trees - It lacked the Melee/Ranged Power of other trees, the Ranged/Thrown path wasn't competitive vs. other options, and a few Finishing Moves that hadn't yet made it into trees needed a home.

• Added +5 Melee and Ranged Power to Ninja Spy Core 18 (Diversion)
• Added +15 Melee and Ranged Power to Ninja Spy Core 20 (Ninja Master). The line about Self Defense in the last revision now reads "If you have Self Defense, you gain an additional +10 Melee (just Melee)Power".
  • (This becomes just Melee Power because Ranged Power is now in Tier 5 - See below).
• Ninja Spy Dark Path: Shadow Flurry now reads: Melee Attack: +20% damage. Target must make a saving throw equal to (10/14/18 + Monk Level + Highest of Str/Dex/Wis Mod + Assassinate DCs) or have some of their energy temporarily sealed, halving all positive energy healing, reducing its fortification by 25%, and rendering it unable to cast spells. The enemy makes recurring Fortitiude saves to shake the effect. Cost: 20 HP, 10 Ki. Cooldown: 12 seconds.
• Ninja Spy Touch of Death now deals Poison damage instead of Negative and has a 15 second cooldown.
• Self Defense is now a multiselector with Improved Archer's Focus: Your Archer's Focus stance can now stack up to 25 times instead of 15. Passive: +10 Ranged Power
• Shadow Double is no longer a Melee Attack. Instead, it's an activated ability that grants +50% Doublestrike, +50% Doubleshot, and +5 Assassinate DCs for 12 seconds. (Activation Cost: 30 Ki. Cooldown: 25 seconds)

Henshin Mystic

• Elemental Words' upgrades when you have Adept/Master/Grandmaster of Forms is now 2d6/2d10/2d20.
• Kata of Dark Stars is now: You use the power of the stars to set up harmonic vibrations within your enemy that force them to dance for 12 seconds. (DC = 10 + STR/DEX/WIS modifier + Monk level + Stunning DC boosts). Costs 20 ki, 12 second cooldown

Updated version of the previous thread:​

We have decided that the time has come to take a look at the Monk class as a whole and make some adjustments while we debut the upcoming Dragon Disciple Monk Archetype (see thread here!)

Below is an early plan and subject to change:

Monk Combos and Finishing Moves

The Combo and Finishing Move system in the Monk class has had issues for a long time. Some of the issues we identified were:

• The combo builders themselves are not especially strong.
• Combo-building is clunky due to cooldowns.
• The combo system is easily interrupted by common actions, resetting your combo.

As we looked into adjusting this system we encountered the following:

• Strengthening combo builders makes the Monk disproportionately powerful across all level ranges, especially as there is no cost (feat slots, action points) in gaining them - Monks get these and their trees and their bonus feats.
• The cooldowns on the builders are structurally important to make sure the system functions as intended, and it is nearly impossible to reduce that cooldown without creating additional issues.
• On our code side, the combo system relies on an opt-out designation for actions to break your combo, meaning that to make the combo system more flexible would require individually tagging hundreds-to-thousands of individual actions as "this doesn't break a combo", or rebuilding the combo system from scratch.

We have instead decided to explore a more comprehensive rebalance of the Monk! So, we're removing the Combo system and putting most of the finishers into the Monk class Enhancement Trees. Let's take a look!

Overall Monk Class Changes

1. The elemental combo builder attacks granted at level 1 and with Adept/Master/Grandmaster of Forms are removed. (You still gain the Stances as before).
2. The Monk Finishing Move feat is removed.
3. The Shining Star feat is removed. (We're considering how to work this back in - let us know where you'd like to see it.)
4. You still select Light or Dark path at Monk Level 3, but they are no longer attacks - Instead, they influence multiselectors in the Monk trees.
5. Quivering Palm's DC now uses Strength if it is highest (highest of Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom Modifier)
6. Stunning Fist can now be used with any Melee Weapon as long as you are Centered.
   1. Stunning Fist's DC now uses the highest of Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom.

Monk Enhancement Trees Overview

We had a few goals in our changes to the trees: Primarily, we needed to work in the removed Finishing Moves. Secondarily, we wanted to make the Trees more flexible. In the current Live version of Monk, your tree selection is strongly restricted by weapon:

• Shintao: Only works well with Handwraps
• Henshin: Only works well with Quarterstaves
• Ninja Spy: Works well with every Monk weapon that isn't Handwraps or Quarterstaves.

Our plan here involves making these trees more weapon-agnostic (even if they may still include some bonuses to those weapons) and instead refocuses them on themes. Ideally, this will lead to more diversity of Monk builds and more interesting choices. The below trees now focus on:

• Shintao: Core weapon DPS, with some Positive/Negative energy.
• Ninja Spy: Poison, Tricks, and Stealth/Sneak.
• Henshin Mystic: Using weapon stats to do Elemental damage, defenses.

The planned changelists for each tree are below. If something is not mentioned, there is no plan to change it at this time. As we've said above, this is not final, just the current plan.

Shintao​

Shintao focuses on core DPS.

• Cores:
  • Cores remain the same, except all abilities that say with Handwraps now say while Centered.
  • To Seek Perfection's "You no longer suffer penalties from Meditation of War" is removed as there are no more penalties (see below) and replaced with "If you have Meditation of War, +10 Melee and Ranged Power".
• Tier 1:
  • Elemental Curatives is replaced with Shintao Studies: +1 to Attack and Damage while Centered. (Antireq: Ninjutsu and Henshin Training. Essentially, you can only take one Attack+Damage line.)
  • Ki Shout is removed (moved to HM), and replaced with NEW: Fast Hands (Multiselector): +1/2/3% Doublestrike OR Doubleshot
  • Exemplar is removed (moved to HM), and replaced with Negotiator currently found in Henshin Mystic.
  • Deft Strikes is now a multiselector with Improved Second Strikes:+[5/10/20]% Strikethrough.
• Tier 2:
  • Elemental Curatives is replaced with Shintao Studies: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • Elemental Ki Strikes are no longer combo builders, but otherwise remain unchanged.
  • Conditioning is removed (moved to HM), and replaced with Quick Strike currently found in Henshin Mystic. Quick Strike is no longer restricted to Quarterstaves, but you must be Centered.
• Tier 3:
  • Elemental Curatives is replaced with Shintao Studies: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • NEW: Hands of Mercy (Multiselector):
    • Light Path: Hand of Healing: You heal all nearby allies for 1d4 plus 1d4 per monk level. (12 second cooldown, costs 5 Ki)
    • Dark Path: Hand of Harm: Melee Attack: You strike your opponent down with a terrible curse, halving all positive energy healing done to the target, reducing its fortification by 25%, and increasing its negative energy vulnerability by 25%. Periodic Fortitude saves (14 + STR/DEX/WIS Modifier + Monk Level + Stunning Bonuses) to negate. (12 second cooldown, costs 10 ki)
  • Dismissing Strike has its AP cost reduced to 1, because it's extremely situational
• Tier 4:
  • Elemental Curatives is replaced with Shintao Studies: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • NEW: Greater Mercies (Multiselector):
    • Light Path: Greater Hand of Healing: Your Hand of Healing now applies a Lesser Restoration effect and removes Blindness, Curses, and Diseases.
    • Dark Path: Greater Hand of Harm: Targets affected by your Hand of Harm are also Blinded and Nauseated until they save.
• Tier 5:
  • Empty Hand Mastery becomes Shintao Mastery, which does the same thing but "and wielding Handwraps" is removed.
  • Kukan-Do now reads: You lock gazes with an enemy, stunning them for a short period of time on a failed Will save (DC 14 + Wisdom modifier + Monk level). Any effects that modify your Stunning Blow or Stunning Fist DC's also affect this ability. Sightless creatures are unaffected by this ability. (Cooldown: Unchanged from Live)
  • The penalties from Meditation of War are removed. It also gains +3 to Attack and Damage while Centered in addition to its other effects.

Ninja Spy​

Ninja Spy focuses on poisons, tricks, assassination, and sneakiness.

• Cores:
  • Poisoned Darts now reads "Ki Activate: You spit poisoned darts in a cone before you. Nearby enemies are affected by between 4 and 8 stacks of Ninja Poison. (Magical Poison: Target takes 1d4 points of Poison damage, which scales with the higher of Melee and Ranged Power every 3 seconds for 15 seconds. If a target affected by this attack is normally immune to Poison, they become vulnerable to Poison while affected by Poisoned Darts. This ability can stack up to 20 times. On timer expiration, 4 stacks of Ninja Poison are removed at a time.) (Activation Cost: 15 Ki. Cooldown: 12 seconds)"
  • Diversion no longer has its Critical bonus (moved to Tier 5). Instead, it has +5 Melee and Ranged Power.
  • Ninja Master now also has "+10% Fortification Bypass, +15 Melee and Ranged Power. If you have Self Defense, you gain an additional +10 Melee (just Melee) Power".
• Tier 1:
  • Ninjutsu is removed, and replaced by the new Ninjutsu: +1 to Attack and Damage while Centered. (Antireq: Shintao Studies and Henshin Training. Essentially, you can only take one Attack+Damage line.)
• Tier 2:
  • Ninjutsu is removed, and replaced by the new Ninjutsu: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • Elemental Ki Strikes is cut (it exists in Shintao and I don't think people dip into multiple of these across two trees). It is replaced with Extra Action Boost: +1/2/3 Action Boosts.
  • Action Boost: Melee/Ranged Power is now a multiselector with Action Boost: Haste.
• Tier 3:
  • Ninjutsu is removed, and replaced by the new Ninjutsu: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • Flash Bang is removed, and replaced by Shadow Arts:
    • Light Path: Flash Bang: Ki Bomb Spell-Like Ability: Throws a fragile eggshell imbued with ninja magic that explodes into light, blinding opponents for 6 seconds on a failed reflex save and momentarily dazing opponents on a failed fortitude save. Both saving throws have DC equal to (10/14/18 + Monk Level + Highest of Str/Dex/Wis Mod + Assassinate DCs). (Activation Cost: 20 Ki. Cooldown: 30 seconds)
    • Dark Path: Shadow Flurry: Melee Attack: +20% damage. Target must make a saving throw equal to (10/14/18 + Monk Level + Highest of Str/Dex/Wis Mod + Assassinate DCs) or have some of their energy temporarily sealed, halving all positive energy healing, reducing its fortification by 25%, and rendering it unable to cast spells. The enemy makes recurring Fortitiude saves to shake the effect. Cost: 20 HP, 10 Ki. Cooldown: 12 seconds.
• Tier 4:
  • Ninjutsu is removed, and replaced by the new Ninjutsu: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • Deadly Exploits is removed, and replaced with Greater Shadow Arts:
    • Light Path: Cloak of Shadows: After using Flash Bang, you become Invisible for 6 seconds which is not broken by actions.
    • Dark Path: Poison Exploit: On a failed saving throw, your Touch of Despair purges an enemy of Ninja Poison, dealing 1d20 + 20 poison damage per stack of Ninja Poison removed. Scales with higher of Melee/Ranged Power. (This factors in the damage boost from Deadly Exploit as well.)
• Tier 5:
  • Touch of Death now reads: You strike a living opponent down with twisted ki, dealing +50% damage and 500 additional Poison damage that scales with 200% Melee Power. Your opponent takes half damage on a successful Fortitude save (DC = 14 + Monk Level + Highest of Str/Dex/Wis Modifier + Assassinate DCs). Cooldown: 15 seconds). Passive: +3 to Hit and Damage while Centered.
  • Deadly Striker now reads: "While you are centered, you gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. Kamas, Shortswords, and Shuriken gain an additional +1 Critical Threat Range."
  • Self Defense is now a multiselector with Improved Archer's Focus: Your Archer's Focus stance can now stack up to 25 times instead of 15. Passive: +10 Ranged Power.
  • Shadow Double is no longer a Melee Attack. Instead, it's an activated ability that grants +50% Doublestrike, +50% Doubleshot, and +5 Assassinate DCs for 12 seconds. (Activation Cost: 30 Ki. Cooldown: 25 seconds)

Henshin Mystic​

Henshin Mystic focuses on elemental power and defenses.

• Cores:
  • Riddle of Fire now gains "While you are centered, you can use your Wisdom modifier to hit" in addition to its other effects.
  • The casting time on Ki Bolt is reduced. Ki Bolt also gains "While you are centered, you can use your Wisdom modifier for damage. In addition, while you are Centered, you gain +2 Ki each time you hit a creature. This stacks with all other sources of Ki generation."
  • Sounding Staff is now Cauldron of Flame. Most of it remains the same, but "you personally gain +20 PRR, +10 MRR, and +15% Dodge that ignores Dodge Cap" changes to "you personally gain PRR equal to your Monk level, MRR equal to your Monk level, and Dodge that ignores Dodge Cap equal to 5 + half your Monk Level." It also grants +15% Competence Bonus to Quarterstaff Attack Speed. (The identical speed boost in Rogue Acrobat's Thief Acrobatics will also be typed Competence at this time).
  • Incinerating Wave now changes elemental damage if you have a non-Fire Elemental Soul Imbue active.
  • Cauldron of Flame is now Improved Cauldron: The cooldown timer on Cauldron of Flames is now halved. You may now move a small range outside your Cauldron without it collapsing.
  • Serenity removes the text "and wielding a Quarterstaff" and replaces it with "and Centered", letting you gain the bonus crit while in the Cauldron with other weapons. The Attack Speed for Quarterstaves is removed (see Cauldron of Flame).
• Tier 1:
  • Elemental Words now grants you all four of the attacks, which now share a cooldown. The attacks are no longer combo moves, but instead gain the damage from the defunct elemental combo builders: 1d6 Elemental damage. Having Adept/Master/Grandmaster of Forms upgrades this damage to 2d6/2d10/2d20.
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and Damage while Centered. (Antireq: Shintao Studies and Ninjutsu. Essentially, you can only take one Attack+Damage line.)
  • Mystic Training is removed (no longer using Finishing Move DCs anywhere) and replaced with Ki Shout (formerly in Shintao)
  • Negotiator is removed, and replaced with Exemplar (formerly in Shintao)
• Tier 2:
  • Elemental Words is replaced with Elemental Soul: You gain four Imbue toggles, one for each of Fire, Cold, Electric, and Acid. When toggled, you enhance your attacks with ki, dealing 1d6 (Element) damage on hit, and an additional 1d6 Force damage on crit. Your Ki Spells also apply the (Element) portion of this damage. This damage scales with the highest of Melee and Ranged Power.
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • Quick Strike moves to Shintao, and is replaced by Conditioning from that tree.
  • Elemental Ki Strikes is removed (it's in Shintao), and replaced with Embrace the Void, which moves down from Tier 3.
• Tier 3:
  • Elemental Words is replaced with Mystic Kata:
    • Light Path: Kata of Wind: Activate to grant you and nearby allies 20% Concealment for 60 seconds. (90 second cooldown, costs 10 ki)
    • Dark Path: Kata of Ice: You perform an attack that encases a tainted target in ice on a failed Will save for 10 seconds. (DC = 10 + STR/DEX/WIS modifier + Monk level + Stunning DC boosts). Costs 20 ki, 12 second cooldown
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • Lighting the Candle is gone, replaced with T2 Elemental Soul. It is replaced with Mantra of Body: +2/4/6 PRR
  • NEW: Clear Your Mind: Battle Trance: While Centered, you gain an Insight bonus to Attack, Damage and the DC of Tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Wisdom modifier for 30/60/120 seconds. Cooldown: 20 seconds. Activation Cost: 30 Ki. The effects of this Trance are dispelled if you are no longer Centered. Antirequisite: This ability can not be trained if you have any other Battle Trance ability (e.g. Know the Angles).
• Tier 4:
  • Elemental Words is replaced with Mystic Kata:
    • Light Path: Kata of Deep Magic: When you use Kata of Wind, you grant you and other allies a 25% reduction in Spell Point Cost for 60 seconds.
    • Dark Path: Kata of Dark Stars: You use the power of the stars to set up harmonic vibrations within your enemy that force them to dance for 12 seconds. (DC = 10 + STR/DEX/WIS modifier + Monk level + Stunning DC boosts). Costs 20 ki, 12 second cooldown
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • NEW: Mantra of Soul: +2/4/6 MRR
• Tier 5:
  • Void Strike is no longer a Void combo builder. Otherwise, remains the same.
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +3 to Attack and Damage while Centered.
  • Staff Specialization is now Mystic Honing, +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier and Threat Range. Passive: You gain a +25% Competence bonus to maximum hit points.
  • Balance In Dawn's attacks are no longer Light/Dark builders.

 

[Efretti]

Where is the autocrit that used to be Fire-Dark-Fire and the 2 multi that used to be Earth-Earth-Earth? They were some of the main abilities that made monk interesting to play.

 

[Dom]

Crazy to see that pure monk is gonna get worse after this pass. I see that the some finishers were attempted to be incorporated in ninja spy tier 3, but that is a huge AP investment and not feasible for pure monk and even the majority of monk splash builds, and losing Fire-Dark-Fire and Earth-Earth-Earth is a huge DPS loss.

Going from an auto crit to 20% damage, 25% fort reduction and silence is wild.

 

[Efretti]

Crazy to see that pure monk is gonna get worse after this pass, and removing finishers is a big DPS loss. I see that the Fire-Dark-Fire finisher was attempted to be incorporated in ninja spy tier 3, but that is a huge AP investment and not feasible for pure monk and even the majority of monk splash builds.

Fdf isn't in t3 ninja anymore. It would be nice if it was incorporated along EEE and missing finishers in later monk auto granted feats so it would reward pure monk.

 

[Goldy]

I will write this again, what you doing to gut the Monk Class, remove it's unique playstyle and smash the large square dps peg into the round whole does not look like it will be fun to play nor as versatile as the current live version. Adding a few points of DPS to this class doesn't make up for what you cutting.

All three trees are cookie cutter blah.
If Shintao is supposed to be Core Weapon DPS, Ninja Spy is supposed to be Poison Trick Stealth, and Heshin Mystic is supposed to be Elemental Weapon and Defense than the enhancement trees should align better with those goals. What you are building is more akin to the Sorcerer's Savant Line with minor differences between the trees than taking Shintao and making it a cross between Falconry and Kensei Enhancement Trees, Ninja Spy a cross between Assassin and Deepwoods Stalker, and Heshin Mystic a cross between Arcane Archer and Sacred Defender. Using those tree as basis would make these tree better align with you goal.

https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/u72-early-look-monk-revamp.16297/page-8#post-203226

 

[Northwest Ohio]

Just a thought here on Ninja Spy T3 "sting of the ninja"
Can the damage mimic Drow's T4 racial "Venomed Blades" 1d4/6/8 @ 200% melee power? Leave the rest of the goodies, just up the damage a bit to mirror another enhancement.

I really don't want to have to suffer drow stat reduction for the synergies of the new tree enhancements, which I'm likely to do anyways because the build looks fun. Lol

 

[Dandonk]

The loss of the finishers will hit hard, both in terms of damage but more importantly, in terms of the feel of the class. It seems to be going towards a much more generic class, losing the spirit.

I hope there's some way to keep these abilities in some form. The mechanic of the finishers can be very annoying, so yeah, not complaining if they get reworked in some form. But this seems to go too far, removing the core of the class.

I hope the abilities can be put back in, in some other form, somehow.

 

[Venatori d' Argonnessen]

Glad to see these changes!

Looks like the autocrit is going away which is sad. Fire dark fire has been a staple for awhile. Maybe put that into shintao since both the ninja spy and the shintao t3 dark attacks are reducing fort, hamp, and amplifying neg damage?

Ninja spy probably shouldnt have a crit profile thats different than the other trees. Id like it if the extra crit range for the other weapons was removed or reworked in some manner. Shuri definitely doesnt need a *buff* since before the extra range was in conflict with the improved archers focus and now it also gets a 50% up time 50% doubleshot click. If the extra crit profiles want to stay, the other monk trees should probably get them too, otherwise the trees being weapon agnostic doesnt make too much sense
Also a tweaked measure the foe is a lot more interesting and thematic for ninja spy instead of flat mp/rp. Would be more fun imho if the stats were implemented in this way rather than a flat bonus but /shrug

id like to see violence begets violence reworked in some manner. Its current form doesnt really fit the game too much imho. Making it a flat buff for a duration like +1 damage when being attacked / missed in combat for 5s, stacks 10 times or similar

I also genuinely believe being able to sustain cauldron is going to be *absurdly* op. Since the cooldown gets halved in the 18 core and we get access to cauldron earlier, it makes a lot of sense to me to have the duration reduced to 20ish seconds

Thanks!

 

[Neo]

Can we just add FDF auto crit and EEE attack finisher as level 17 and level 20 monk feats. You don’t have to worry about balancing it around multiclass and it’s a higher level ability so it doesn’t affect early heroics.

Also please make the cooldowns 9 seconds. A 3 second increase to what they are currently seems fair for the ease of use.

 

[Nickodeamous]

I think you should just give the finishers as part of the class. Make them 25 Ki with a 15 second cooldown. That way we still have them in some capacity. Also, keep the strikes, even if they aren't a builder.

As it stands right now, this is not a monk anymore. I get that the code is very difficult, and you may have to hit a target date to put this through, but for the love of the game, please do something about the finishers and strikes.

Not even sure what else to say.

 

[Phoenicis]

Can't quote from the other thread, so gonna cut/paste since my issue remains:

I guess another monk nerf was inevitable, they had been left along for far to long.

Better Monk update: Make all three trees weapon agnostic.

Done.

As it is take 14 abilities all monks can access away, remove a ton of active attacks (including the ones in the trees if I read correctly). Give back SOME of the finishers in the trees that instead of getting for free you now need to spend AP to access.

Oh, and give some more back in an archtype tree.

This is terrible. IMO.

And yes, I still think this is terrible.

 

[Lotoc]

I also genuinely believe being able to sustain cauldron is going to be *absurdly* op. Since the cooldown gets halved in the 18 core and we get access to cauldron earlier, it makes a lot of sense to me to have the duration reduced to 20ish seconds

personally I'd argue that cauldron of flame being so antithetical to monk's mobility and how rarely you'll get to just stay in the same spot for 30 seconds makes it fair to be something that in the rare ideal circumstances can be maintained.
The +1 crit multi is specifically with monk weapons after all as a capstone - the best you're going to get is a longsword with knight's training in terms of crit profile but it's going to end up best utilized by a handwrap monk most likely and at the same time it's an inferior crit profile to a swashbarb/swashdl using a handaxe which they have at all times.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

I really don't understand why the most interesting and unique component of the monk class for over a decade needs to be completely removed and replaced with a single button press.
Please never rework casters.

 

[pame12]

Abundant step cooldown reduction!

 

[Xeang]

Response to the 2nd Rendition of the Monk:

I believe the ship has sailed for returning to the build strikes and finishers of the past monk, though I also feel the loss of many abilities that this provided. It has become a nerf to every monk for buffing, dps, and de-buffing as well as of flavor and of challenge for veteran monk users.

However, I don’t believe that is the Devs intent. Rather they are sincere and clear (as they state in the beginning of the thread) that they wish to get rid of the clunkiness of those builders and thereby making the monk more user friendly to others.

With that said, I believe some more changes can be made to reinfuse flavor, unique abilities that are lost, and re-empower the monk who is generally experienced as the weakest of the melee classes especially in regards to DPS from the current meta.



Henshin

The most changes and work was done to this class in the first rendition and I see an incredible improvement in power and flavor and diversity (not limited to staff). I would change only one thing:

Tier 3: Kata of the Wind change to Kata of Wind and Water and include both prior buffs (wind -20% blurry and water – 10% reduction of spell points.

Tier 4: Then change Kata of Deep Magic to Kata of the Elements which would add the acid and Fire (immunity to stun/daze/etc (acid) and +2 saves, skills, and to hit (fire).

In this manner you have preserved to all those useful buffs and have not nerfed the monk. Also I see what you did here in offering a version of Shining Star in the Dark side philosophy with Kata of Dark Stars. Is this an AOE? Will you still give Shining Star as and individual mob strike that once was available to all monks regardless of philosophy?


Shintao

Shintao is supposed to be the DPS wing of the monk? There is far more DPS in Henshin with the element soul imbues as well as the same line of damage as the the Shintao with Henshin training. The only real DPS Buff to the Shintao is the +3 W in the final 2 cores.

Perhaps rather add to the early cores 4 cores of Shintao a +.05W. Maintain the +1 W for Core 18 and +2 for Core 20. But otherwise there is no improvement for this tree regarding strictly DPS.

I would beseech you to move the Haste Boost / Melee Power Boost to this tree (that is more DPS related) and switch the Doublestrke/Strikethrough multi-selector to Ninja Spy – it belongs there anyway since it has ranged boost useful there for the other shuriken thrower enhancements.

By the way there is nothing of DPS or much of anything for that matter in the early cores and tier 1 of Ninja Spy to warrant not putting the same number points in Vistani to achieve haste boost. They have better tank and DPS Tier 1 offerings at the same cost of enhancements if you keep Haste Boost in Ninja Spy.


Ninja Spy

You in your second rendition have improved this tree but as noted switch the multi selector here with the one in the Shintao Tree to be better flavor and theme and usefulness for both trees.

Also I would recommend putting +1 Assassinate DC in each core of this tree and/or some low hanging fruit of assassinate (+1,+2,+3) in tier 1 or 2 of this tree.



All Monk Improvements

Many monks are feeling the loss of losing the availability of almost all the additional elemental damage clickies and buff and DPS clickies as early as level 3 -- perhaps none more that the primary philosophy clickies Fist of Light and Touch of Despair.

Restore these 2 primary clickies providing the damage and healing shield for light monks and the damage and debuff for the darkside monks. These important 2 philosophical choices should come with an active and useful choice beyond just impacting (and in some ways limiting) future choices in the trees. They should come with the free feat as they do now.

Two additional clickies are hardly overwhelming to new monk users and provide (restore) flavor and power that was already available. Otherwise it may be viewed as another nerf to the monk.


Finally as you are improving the overall monk experience, now might be a good time to address a few of their received feats.

I would also encourage with the monk revamp that some of the monk feats get updated.

Meditation and Wholeness of Body become a single click ki/healswith a timer verses sitting for 30 secs. Groups don't like to wait.

Timeless Body at level 17 should be a stronger feat than just a personal spawn screen. How about adding immunity to energy drain which would help them remain "timeless"?

Empty Body (I never use -- can't see anything much in that purple haze) could be enhanced with a 5% stacking incorporeal and/or concealment.

Shining Star as mentioned before would be awesome either at one of the monk levels that don't receive a new monk feat (like 8 or 14). Such a fun one - by the way could you make it work on reapers? That would be awesome and hilarious!



I appreciate you Devs – thanks for tackling this where not all will be made happy but working hard to make as many as possible happy. You have the difficult path of both light and dark to balance the monk, improve his performance while not overpowering him above other melees.

 

[saekee]

In the OP can you put the RESULTS of the changed and add the commentary/notes somewhere else? Here I am trying to figure out what is going on and you are sending us essentially to a wiki.

Extra melee power is good, rest does not feel imaginative or exciting.

• Deadly Striker now reads: "While you are centered, you gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. Kamas, Shortswords, and Shuriken gain an additional +1 Critical Threat Range." So shortswords get to be 16-20/3?And kamas 17-20/3, 16-20/3 with an extra feat? This is STILL worse than a LEVEL 3 BARD! NINJAS WILL NOT BE USING KAMAS OR SHORTSWORDS WITH THIS SETUP! The best ninja is still by far a SWF kukri wielder! And guess what—GLAMMERING a kama at this point is not a fun solution for Ninja-lovers as we will get constant tells like, ‘Yo why a kama? They s_ck. You aint a bard’
• And please add the chains attack so typical of a ninja somewhere; the tech exists in shadar-kai. Maybe link it to the Path of Darkness feat? Think: it won’t work anyway with handwraps, staves and long swords!
• Add free feat Swords to Ploughshares at a bare minimum.
• Keep finishing moves and allow Henshins to create elemental vulnerabilites somewhere in their elemental attacks as it now exists on live

 

[The Blonde]

I really feel you should update the autogranted Monk abilities, such as Perfect Self. Otherwise this feels less like a revamp and more like a "since we are releasing Disciple, we are also updating the Monk enhancements to accommodate it".

 

[Eme]

sigh.

I can't be bothered, anymore.
Subscription cancelled. Recent points refunded.

Enthusiasm to carry on playing: flatlined.

 

[Viamel]

Cool to see some oomph added for Shuriken, though the 50% doubleshot clicky may have been overboard
I know Improved Archer's Focus was directly asked for, I'd rather see something that incentivises creative play than just a raw extra 50 rp

I'd still like to see some incentive in Ninja Spy for using Sneak,
Touch of Death having an instakill while sneaking seems appropriate.
Having a Ki-Builder while Sneaking could be fun

The finishers:
A lot people seem happy to get rid of the builder system, fine
But please just give us the full suite of finishers as feats (9s CD) and then let the enhancements upgrade certain finishers to be more punchy, a lot of the reward we as players feel for using the finishers is selecting the appropriate one for the situation.
The big gripe here is suddenly being locked out of much of monks versatility by the opportunity cost of spending AP

 

[5 Other People]

Not even sure what else to say.

Which of the finishers missing do you love the most?

Aside from the builder aspect, what else is missing that you love about monk?