U72 Early Look 2: Monk Revamp

[Amideus]

The elemental attacks are still there in a sense in that elemental words in Henshin now does similar damage i.e. 2d20 at grandmaster level and gives you all 4 elemental attacks.

I'd argue that removing a baseline feature and tying it to a specific enhancement is a fundamental change to power that warrants my request. Particularly if there isn't an equivalent in the new DD archtype.

Base die at 20 with active PL: Monk was 2d12, with (epic)Jidz tet'ka it was 2d20, I think. Unless that was after they started using made-up dice and it was 2d14

Thanks it's been a LONG time since mid 2000s when this was the norm. I had almost forgotten they just straight up frankensteined some dice for the damage at one point.

They whacked Duality's damage too? (never got a set, didn't endgame raid at the time) Wasn't aware of that.

Yep. Instead of adjusting one item at the time, they nerfed all of monk and then nerfed the item anyway.

I think that any monk rework needs to come with an update to monk handwraps builds that undoes this horrible nerf.

 

[Havocthedemon1]

Soloing the twilight forge requires five levels of monk if memory serves for the self raise.

Don’t we have the mass raise now? And if not - I’m betting a build with 15 levels of something else is better suited than 20 monk lol

 

[rabidfox]

Don’t we have the mass raise now? And if not - I’m betting a build with 15 levels of something else is better suited than 20 monk lol

Mass raise isn't a self-raise, it just raises the rest of the party/raid.

 

[Phoenicis]

Don’t we have the mass raise now? And if not - I’m betting a build with 15 levels of something else is better suited than 20 monk lol

1. I said 5 levels of monk for the self raise, not 20.
2. Sure, wait until 30 to solo a lvl 12(?) raid.
3. (Thanks Rabid) Is beckon Divinity useable when dead?

 

[rabidfox]

3. (Thanks Rabid) Is beckon Divinity useable when dead?

Nope.

 

[Havocthedemon1]

1. I said 5 levels of monk for the self raise, not 20.
2. Sure, wait until 30 to solo a lvl 12(?) raid.
3. (Thanks Rabid) Is beckon Divinity useable when dead?

This whole discussion was about Lshroud in R10 - nothing about heroic.

 

[Phoenicis]

This whole discussion was about Lshroud in R10 - nothing about heroic.

1. You are in the monk revamp thread, you know that, right?
2. NO mention has been made of R10 anything (unless you count the video that was posted as a possible reason Duality specifically and monks generally were nerfed)
3. There is no 3, I'm done.

 

[Havocthedemon1]

1. You are in the monk revamp thread, you know that, right?
2. NO mention has been made of R10 anything (unless you count the video that was posted as a possible reason Duality specifically and monks generally were nerfed)
3. There is no 3, I'm done.

That’s literally what we are talking about. Have you been drinking today? The thread was posted about R10 Lshroud and the monk in it being too good - this is exactly the argument we are discussing. You’re embarrassing yourself talking about heroic Shroud and being lvl 30 in it lmao

 

[Phoenicis]

I'm embarrassing myself? I just went back thru. This 'thread' had nothing to do with R10 shroud, it was a discussion (somewhat off topic to be sure) of Monk HW +w and it's history. R10 shroud was referenced as a reason it was nerfed. You mentioned there is no raid that required monk to solo, I mentioned Twilight forge solo requires a monk splash of at least 5 levels.

At that point you went off the rails.

Talk about embarrassing.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Stay a while and listen,
First monks got "dice step" from 1d6 up to 2d10 at level 20. That sounds alot but at the time named weapons also got higher and higher base dice. Epic SoS was 5d6, for example, which was the reason they implemented the +W-system in the first place.
At that point monks stayed at 1d6 and increased their damage dice by getting +W while non-wrap weapons had a similar +W progression. At no point yet did handwrap items increase your base dice or give +W.

Finally handwraps were turned into regular weapons and got their own +W progression. At first monks kept their inherent +W bonus, but as gear scaled up this became problematic. The addition of "loaded dice" on endgame weapons tipped the scales and massively buffed monks. The first implementation was horribly imbalanced as it treated wraps as a two handed weapon. With the famed duality wraps monks had 1d6+6 base damage with by far the highest +W of any class.

Even with the loaded dice fix tuning it down to 1d6+3 it still meant that the monks inherent +W provided almost twice as much damage as before, and combined with the fact it no longer was needed to provide parity with other weapons it made sense to nerf it. Obviously they overcorrected, but monks were still very strong. Far stronger than the forums monk-victimization will let you think.

With that said, the upcomming changes will be the nail in the coffin for wraps. Without the wrap-specific bonuses from shintao and with easy access to centered kukris there will be little point is using wraps as the crit range of kukris far putweighs the faster attackspeed of handwraps.

This is the perfect time to go back and redo the unarmed strike feat.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Yea, Duality was 7(1d6+3), and with Monk additional (W) dice was just annihilate all around. I think i see R10 Baba solo raid or like with Monk +Duality, and soon after devs kill all handwraps totally. 8)

Duality was released as 7(1d6+6).

 

[Amideus]

At no point yet did handwrap items increase your base dice or give +W.

I'm going to guess you mean the wraps themselves, as reinforced fist existed on gear allowing for dice increases outside of the monk feats.

but monks were still very strong. Far stronger than the forums monk-victimization will let you think.

There seems to be this consistent rule that unarmed monks are not allowed to be strong. They have to always be weaker than other alternatives. They are never allowed to shine on their own. Which is strange. There's nothing wrong with being strong. We want unarmed monks to be strong.

With that said, the upcomming changes will be the nail in the coffin for wraps. Without the wrap-specific bonuses from shintao and with easy access to centered kukris there will be little point is using wraps as the crit range of kukris far putweighs the faster attackspeed of handwraps.

This is the perfect time to go back and redo the unarmed strike feat.

I couldn't agree more. Adding more weapon choice will only make the disparity in wraps more apparent. Their base damage should have always been the offset for a weaker critical profile. They have more consistent output and less wild critical ranges, allowing for steady dps rather than huge crits.

I doubt we will ever see it, but would be nice for Quivering Palm to get a little touch up to be idk, more reliable. I hardly think a single target melee insta-kill is too much to ask for being reasonable to achieve with some of the DC casters running around eating entire rooms. Sometimes I can't even get enough ki to use it before things are dead.

 

[Celtic]

With that said, the upcomming changes will be the nail in the coffin for wraps. Without the wrap-specific bonuses from shintao and with easy access to centered kukris there will be little point is using wraps as the crit range of kukris far putweighs the faster attackspeed of handwraps.

This is the perfect time to go back and redo the unarmed strike feat.

Assuming that Steelstar didnt make a mistake when he said all core abilities in Shintao are weapon agnostic (though i suspect that the +W bonuses in level 18/20 arent supposed to be) then yeah they would need some handwrap specific bonuses in addition to make damage comparable to kukris.

 

[J1NG]

I doubt Steelstar had HW considertations in place when they went in on this. Most likely if there is any adjustments for HW that's needed, it'll be after the release...

J1NG

 

[Xeang]

I doubt Steelstar had HW considertations in place when they went in on this. Most likely if there is any adjustments for HW that's needed, it'll be after the release...

J1NG

I sadly agree with you.

On a related note, I got the impression that they are now addressing the iconic first and later will do the monk pass -- but shouldn't they do the monk pass first to help regulate what the iconic will be in relation to its new and change abilities? This would include, I hope, the restored W or improved W to handwrap monk at the least.

 

[danzig138]

I think you should just give the finishers as part of the class. Make them 25 Ki with a 15 second cooldown. That way we still have them in some capacity. Also, keep the strikes, even if they aren't a builder.

As it stands right now, this is not a monk anymore. I get that the code is very difficult, and you may have to hit a target date to put this through, but for the love of the game, please do something about the finishers and strikes.

Not even sure what else to say.

Lol

As it stands, the Monk hasn't been a proper Monk since it was introduced. The Monk was never supposed to be some Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat character with combos and finisher garbage. It was designed to be a highly mobile character meant to take out soft, priority targets on the battlefield.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

It was designed to be a highly mobile character meant to take out soft, priority targets on the battlefield.

...from safe distance, like Shuri-Monk... right? Right?!!

 

[J1NG]

The issue is that given how the DDO Monk was introduced, the proposed changes to the Monk means their DDO identity is being erased and lost. There's already other classes or combinations that already do what the proposed Monk does in DDO but better. And thus the DDO Monk not only loses their identity, but also any relevance at all.

After all, why use Ki weapons? To remain centered? For what now? There's no reason to remain Centered, because there's no Ki abilities of note to even invest into (or standing Ki abilities worth a damn because what they boost is meaningless). Spell Resistance? When at most it prevents 5 or 6 spells of note in the game "if" you have enough of it (and you never do)? Or how the MRR cap for Monks being so low means now that without needing to factor in being Centered, Monks can actually wear Armour for better MRR, but if you do that, you might as well be something else. Which again means, why be a Monk?

So what is the point of the Monk? Strategic priority targets on the battlefield? Are we sure the Monk can take them out better than another class? Because in todays DDO, the Monks ability to lock a target down seems kinda pointless, especially when you factor in such an ability is considered less desireable than higher dps. To which again, a splash or a different class entirely, could likely do a lot better. Heck, even the Shifter could be doing better NOT as a Monk for unarmed. And that says everything about the DDO Monk right now "with" the Finishers and whatnot that's being moved out or removed entirely.

It's going to be one wild day when Lam comes up...

J1NG

 

[Kritikal]

Lol

As it stands, the Monk hasn't been a proper Monk since it was introduced. The Monk was never supposed to be some Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat character with combos and finisher garbage. It was designed to be a highly mobile character meant to take out soft, priority targets on the battlefield.

Correct.

I never understood how a monk needs to fight to build up Ki instead of meditating. Sure, you can meditate to build it slightly, but majority of Ki comes from fighting. If you are not zerging to the next fight, you'll lose it quickly.

Ki should act like a stamina bar. Start with it full, lose it as you fight, and slowly watch it build between fights. When you stop and meditiate, it completely re-fills.

If the Ki bar is completely full, you should be the most powerful.

 

[CEastwood]

Can anyone tell me whether the the loss of the finishers has been addressed in items that use them? For example Moonrise Bracers from Sharn.