U72 Early Look 2: Monk Revamp

[Phoenicis]

Can anyone tell me whether the the loss of the finishers has been addressed in items that use them? For example Moonrise Bracers from Sharn.

I seriously doubt they have thought that far ahead.

 

[LurkingVeteran]

The issue is that given how the DDO Monk was introduced, the proposed changes to the Monk means their DDO identity is being erased and lost. There's already other classes or combinations that already do what the proposed Monk does in DDO but better. And thus the DDO Monk not only loses their identity, but also any relevance at all.

After all, why use Ki weapons? To remain centered? For what now? There's no reason to remain Centered, because there's no Ki abilities of note to even invest into (or standing Ki abilities worth a damn because what they boost is meaningless). Spell Resistance? When at most it prevents 5 or 6 spells of note in the game "if" you have enough of it (and you never do)? Or how the MRR cap for Monks being so low means now that without needing to factor in being Centered, Monks can actually wear Armour for better MRR, but if you do that, you might as well be something else. Which again means, why be a Monk?

So what is the point of the Monk? Strategic priority targets on the battlefield? Are we sure the Monk can take them out better than another class? Because in todays DDO, the Monks ability to lock a target down seems kinda pointless, especially when you factor in such an ability is considered less desireable than higher dps. To which again, a splash or a different class entirely, could likely do a lot better. Heck, even the Shifter could be doing better NOT as a Monk for unarmed. And that says everything about the DDO Monk right now "with" the Finishers and whatnot that's being moved out or removed entirely.

It's going to be one wild day when Lam comes up...

J1NG

The devs should be careful with the changes so they don't end up removing the trademark handwraps and mobility of monks (Abundant Step) from the top tier of monk builds. That said, there are still some ki spenders in all the trees that are nice to have, in addition to abundant step. Henshin monks will have earlier access to reliable healing which is nice for levelling builds.

End-game high-reaper I'm not sure there is a compelling reason to do centered handwrap builds though. Especially not when you can get substantially more DPS from racial non-centered handwrap builds.

 

[pame12]

Really wish they would add some more abundant step upgrades around either as feats or AP, make it cost 5 AP, I don't care! I want lower CD!

 

[Desertdust]

Can we get with monk revamp some changes in unarmed combat?
Some examples:
Shifter with same attack animation of razorclaw
Half-elf monk dilletant with same monk animation (if centered)
New feat: Tavern Brawler (changes unarmed attack animation and gives 0.5W) only punches animations

Those changes world make unarmed builds more interesting

 

[Dalsheel]

Really wish they would add some more abundant step upgrades around either as feats or AP, make it cost 5 AP, I don't care! I want lower CD!

Lower than the 3sec it currently has?

 

[pame12]

Lower than the 3sec it currently has?

I'd give 5 AP just for -1 sec!

 

[Phaedra]

Lower than the 3sec it currently has?

It has a ki cost already, why does it need a CD beyond the global CD? (I know it has one because they don't want monks zooming through quests or flying across explorer zones, but is that a valid concern?)

 

[rabidfox]

It has a ki cost already, why does it need a CD beyond the global CD? (I know it has one because they don't want monks zooming through quests or flying across explorer zones, but is that a valid concern?)

All leaps share a 3s global cooldown; so while some leaps have a longer cooldown than 3s, the lowest it goes even with multiple leaps in a build is 3s between them.

 

[J1NG]

All leaps share a 3s global cooldown; so while some leaps have a longer cooldown than 3s, the lowest it goes even with multiple leaps in a build is 3s between them.

The Devs should implement bonus that you can get in the higher cores or tiers of each tree that enhance the Leap, that way, it makes it a tough choice on whether to invest more to getting it, or ignoring it.

Temporary Dodge for 3s like the Tumble bonus right now (with a cooldown of 6 seconds so you can't spam it for the Dodge and Save bonus? Allowing Monks to zoom in willingly to launch strategic hits in before getting back out of there. Truly allowing for monks to perform hit and run strikes.

Or if a different enhancement was chosen instead, that you gain bonus damage for 3s because you catch enemies off guard effectively by zooming in and striking them at point blank range before they could (figuratively) react?

Lots can be done even for just one feature of the Monk class if thinking outside the box in making everything desireable in some fashion, but needs players to invest into it first.

But I have a feeling we're getting cookie cutter stuff in a weeks time...

J1NG

 

[pame12]

All leaps share a 3s global cooldown; so while some leaps have a longer cooldown than 3s, the lowest it goes even with multiple leaps in a build is 3s between them.

Not quite right from my experimenting, e.g. the shadai kai core that gives the same leap but at 1 minute cooldown can be chained together, though you need to give around 1 second inbetween otherwise they sort of cancel each other out.

That leap attack feat also can be chained and it performs like a leap, except it also does damage too.

 

[pame12]

@SteelStar pretty please with sugar ontop reduce CD of abundant step
You can even double the Ki cost! or 5AP! Or both!

 

[Urklore]

Can we get with monk revamp some changes in unarmed combat?
Some examples:
Shifter with same attack animation of razorclaw
Half-elf monk dilletant with same monk animation (if centered)
New feat: Tavern Brawler (changes unarmed attack animation and gives 0.5W) only punches animations

Those changes world make unarmed builds more interesting

This! I want to be an unarmed fighter (AKA Brawler) but have to splash some levels of monk so I am not kicking people and look silly. There should be a kensi enhancement that allows the attack animation of a monk, perhaps in the exotic weapon enhancement?

 

[Havocthedemon1]

This! I want to be an unarmed fighter (AKA Brawler) but have to splash some levels of monk so I am not kicking people and look silly. There should be a kensi enhancement that allows the attack animation of a monk, perhaps in the exotic weapon enhancement?

This would not have anything to do with a “monk” revamp. Monk is getting some changes to the base class and trees - what you are suggesting is far beyond the scope of this since it would not have anything to do with the class itself. Probably deserving of its own thread - somewhere else.

 

[Tianblade]

I've asked before, I think a universal Brawler Enhancement Tree would be nice. Like the class in LOTRO.

 

[Desertdust]

This! I want to be an unarmed fighter (AKA Brawler) but have to splash some levels of monk so I am not kicking people and look silly. There should be a kensi enhancement that allows the attack animation of a monk, perhaps in the exotic weapon enhancement?

Dragonborn have bite animation instead kick

 

[Bjond]

In general, DPS is still low compared to other trees, particularly Dragon Lord and Assassin. Monk has zero utility to make up for the difference there; eg. handwraps end up at least 10% down just from rate & profile, not including power and sneak attack differences or that TWF has a trivial 100 DS while wraps usually can't reach 100 without temporary count-limitted buffs.

Some suggestions inline on how to maybe address the disparity.

Ninja Spy

Feedback indicated that Ninja Spy needed the most out of these trees - It lacked the Melee/Ranged Power of other trees, the Ranged/Thrown path wasn't competitive vs. other options, and a few Finishing Moves that hadn't yet made it into trees needed a home.

• Added +5 Melee and Ranged Power to Ninja Spy Core 18 (Diversion)
• Added +15 Melee and Ranged Power to Ninja Spy Core 20 (Ninja Master). The line about Self Defense in the last revision now reads "If you have Self Defense, you gain an additional +10 Melee (just Melee)Power".
  • (This becomes just Melee Power because Ranged Power is now in Tier 5 - See below).

Suggest moving more power lower in the trees to permit splashing trapping to address utility disparity or come up with a creative monk'ish way to permit ninja-spy to include trapping. Perhaps something involving sneaking? I'd be tempted to make monk-sneak more ethereal'ish than creeping for more differentiation from rogues. That's just thematic/cosmetic fluff, though.

Capstone requires being able to hit 15x4 profile on weapons to reach parity with DL and Assassin TWF, though I'd put that at L18 core to match the assassin version. Making it "while centered" helps wraps catch up, too, but also puts a 31 AP obligation on wraps in Ninja Spy.

• Ninja Spy Touch of Death now deals Poison damage instead of Negative and has a 15 second cooldown.

IMHO, change ninja spy's poison to supernatural (unresistable). There's so much poison immunity on mobs, that I consider all poison abilities to be null/wasted space in game even with immunity strips -- 2-step strip is too slow.

• We have instead decided to explore a more comprehensive rebalance of the Monk! So, we're removing the Combo system and putting most of the finishers into the Monk class Enhancement Trees. Let's take a look!

Unfortunately agree on this. The combo system was very nicely designed. It has a great monk feel. And, it's so slow to build and use that my monks literally only use the light builder, never any finisher -- they're all too weak to matter.

I would consider permiting all the new finishers to work on both melee and ranged. Monk throwers don't feel very monk'ish due to the melee-only nature of most of the abilities.

Overall Monk Class Changes

1. Quivering Palm's DC now uses Strength if it is highest (highest of Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom Modifier)

Nice, but needs a little more. Monk Assassination DC is v.low to missing tree support. Add some.

OR, change quivering to apply a short 1~4s? stun on a failed DC and/or some vulnerability stacks. Personally, I like the stun. A strong move should always do something and vuln stacks helps out a little bit on bosses.

1. Stunning Fist can now be used with any Melee Weapon as long as you are Centered.

I'd rework this one into an AE cone by renaming it kiai stun to provide parity with Dragon Lord's utility. Quivering failed-dc as a stun then covers the single target stun with this one covering AE on trash. Alternatively, shorten duration and make it a short cower effect instead of an outright stun to match the thematic effect of what an MA Kiai does.

A 1~2s cower with accompanying SFX and a short CD would definitely make monks sound and feel very monk'ish, though it might also garner whines about "my monk is too loud!". Yes, by design!

Shintao focuses on core DPS.

• Cores:
  • Cores remain the same, except all abilities that say with Handwraps now say while Centered.

Same comments as Ninja Spy. Low handwrap dps. Move some capstone down a bit to permit trap or DPS splash as with ninja spy.

OR, add some handwrap scaling at the same spots that upgrade unarmed damage; eg. +W, MP, or Doublestrike. IMHO, wraps are short by 20~40% on DPS compared to DL or Sin TWF.

Increased profile also works, but then monk just chases profile like every other build. If any scalar added, it sb. "centered with wraps" to prevent crazy Razorclaw builds, which shouldn't get those bonuses even if someone spends on the TR+X hearts to make a monk Razorclaw.

• NEW: Hands of Mercy (Multiselector):
  • Light Path: Hand of Healing: You heal all nearby allies for 1d4 plus 1d4 per monk level. (12 second cooldown, costs 5 Ki)

Is the light-builder effect (heal on hit) removed? That's the biggest utility in monk at present and serious harm to monk utility if gone. This heal is so small that like the monk healing finisher, I'd never bother using it.

Changed or not, the wording needs scaling to be stated. Suggest higher of Devotion and 2xMP.

• Dark Path: Hand of Harm: Melee Attack: You strike your opponent down with a terrible curse, halving all positive energy healing done to the target, reducing its fortification by 25%, and increasing its negative energy vulnerability by 25%. Periodic Fortitude saves (14 + STR/DEX/WIS Modifier + Monk Level

Remove saves. The only effect that has is to make it "not for epics" and "veteran only". This should be a signature feature. Every dark monk should have it. It should have a ranged option, too.

Change negative to poison to match other neg/poison changes. Make it AE centered on target.

Ninja Spy
Ninja Spy focuses on poisons, tricks, assassination, and sneakiness.

• Tier 3:
  • Flash Bang is removed, and replaced by Shadow Arts:
    • Light Path: Flash Bang: Ki Bomb Spell-Like Ability: Throws a fragile eggshell imbued with ninja magic that explodes into light, blinding opponents for 6 seconds on a failed reflex save and momentarily dazing opponents on a failed fortitude save. Both saving throws have DC equal to (10/14/18 + Monk Level + Highest of Str/Dex/Wis Mod + Assassinate DCs). (Activation Cost: 20 Ki. Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Should be stunning DC. Assassinate should be reserved for abilities that can instantly kill.

• Tier 5:
  • Touch of Death now reads: You strike a living opponent down with twisted ki, dealing +50% damage and 500 additional Poison damage that scales with 200% Melee Power. Your opponent takes half damage on a successful Fortitude save (DC = 14 + Monk Level + Highest of Str/Dex/Wis Modifier + Assassinate DCs). Cooldown: 15 seconds). Passive: +3 to Hit and Damage while Centered.

Change it to outright instant kill on success, full damage on failed save for parity with Assassinate. However, this is perilously close to duplicating Quivering Palm if you're making QP "while centered". Kudos on not calling it "Dim Mak", though that would be hilarious.

• Deadly Striker now reads: "While you are centered, you gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. Kamas, Shortswords, and Shuriken gain an additional +1 Critical Threat Range."

Weapons need to reach 15x4 in the TWF case for parity with DPS builds. 17x4 is below parity for wraps, 16x4 is above. Suggest altering feature to hit the parity mark. I would consider the above bonuses too low to bother playing.

You could word it as an improvement to the Swords-to-Plowshares feat, which would have a couple effects: leverage existing bonus and let newbies know that they should be taking that feat.

• Tier 3:
  • Elemental Words is replaced with Mystic Kata:
    • Light Path: Kata of Wind: Activate to grant you and nearby allies 20% Concealment for 60 seconds. (90 second cooldown, costs 10 ki)

Concealment has effectively been removed from the game due to past reaper changes. Make useful.

• NEW: Clear Your Mind: Battle Trance: While Centered, you gain an Insight bonus to Attack, Damage and the DC of Tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Wisdom modifier for 30/60/120 seconds. Cooldown: 20 seconds. Activation Cost: 30 Ki. The effects of this Trance are dispelled if you are no longer Centered. Antirequisite: This ability can not be trained if you have any other Battle Trance ability (e.g. Know the Angles).

Extremely useful, but only if WIS to hit/dam is lower in the tree or elsewhere. If not, Falconry is still req'd. Suggest STR/DEX/WIS multiselector if you prefer not to include a hit/dam modifer.

• Tier 4:
  • Elemental Words is replaced with Mystic Kata:
    • Light Path: Kata of Deep Magic: When you use Kata of Wind, you grant you and other allies a 25% reduction in Spell Point Cost for 60 seconds.
    • Dark Path: Kata of Dark Stars: You use the power of the stars to set up harmonic vibrations within your enemy that force them to dance for 12 seconds. (DC = 10 + STR/DEX/WIS modifier + Monk level + Stunning DC boosts). Costs 20 ki, 12 second cooldown

LOL. Fear my dark evil nature. I shall make you ... DANCE! Muaahhaaaa!

Suggest a non-helpless cowed instead.

• Staff Specialization is now Mystic Honing, +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier and Threat Range. Passive: You gain a +25% Competence bonus to maximum hit points.

Staff is a top leveling weapon due to doublestrike in the trees. It's a VERY poor at-cap weapon due to capped doublestrike and poor profile. Consider Critical Multiplier +2 or my own preference would be to make doublestrike uncapped globally, which should balance out builds that level nicely but don't cap well as well as provide a use for doublestrike action boosts and reaper boosts.

Removing staff's doublestrike bonus both here and in acrobat and increasing the tree attack rate bonus or adding some significant +W boosts are also workable options for helping staff at-cap. Each weapon node would need about +2W, though.

 

[Bjond]

creative monk'ish way to permit ninja-spy to include trapping. Perhaps something involving sneaking? I'd be tempted to make monk-sneak more ethereal'ish than creeping for more differentiation from rogues. That's just thematic/cosmetic fluff, though.

Thought a bit about this and with monk's spiritualesque & striking nature came up with:

waru no maki (unwinding evil): while centered, the ninja spy can strike an open-hand blow on a trap to disarm it. 50 ki.

Effectively, it's just a trap disable similar to Horc lock bashing. Monk's would need to acquire disarm & search or other skills could be repurposed for that, such as concentration for disarm and listen for search. Ki requirement would also help put monk in sneak mode to regenerate ki while trapping, making the play even more ninja-y.

I'm ambivalent on whether open-lock would be a good utility choice as well. Ninjas are more about in/kill/out undiscovered rather than treasure. And, open lock itself offers very little utility (it's not something that really can be a utility comparison as it's practically fluff).

The only thoughts I have for shintao utility are AE CC, as it's a combat tree. Suggest adding auto-trip to WWA via a feature in the tree or perhaps successive stacking features with more investment: interrupt, trip, helpless trip / stun. All should be short duration, eg. 1~3s. This would also serve to highlight the wonderfully fun WWA monk animation and bring back the "helicopter monk" and would work nice as a balancer versus Acrobat trip utility for Henshin.