U72 Early Look 2: Monk Revamp

[Lotoc]

Ninja poison has had its primary effect removed (5% poison vulnerability per stack), despite being replaced with a much needed poison immunity stripping, this is a nerf. This was probably done as 100% extra poison damage was seen as a potential issue, but perhaps you should consider adding a 25~50% flat vulnerability back in on top of the immunity stripping.

this actually needs clarifying because Sting of the Ninja was not included in the notes but poison darts was, if it is losing 5% poison vuln per stack really both enhancements should have been listed.

 

[Putti]

Since Dragon Disciple opens up a lot more options for centered weapons could Sting of the Ninja be changed to work on all weapons instead of just piercing and slashing?

 

[Putti]

These were unaddressed from the first revision, so effectively a repost:

• Ninja poison has had its primary effect removed (5% poison vulnerability per stack), despite being replaced with a much needed poison immunity stripping, this is a nerf. This was probably done as 100% extra poison damage was seen as a potential issue, but perhaps you should consider adding a 25~50% flat vulnerability back in on top of the immunity stripping.

Holy moly you're right! I didn't even notice because they said anything unmentioned was untouched and Sting of the Ninja wasn't mentioned, but it seems they did indeed change the effect of the poison when you read the Poisoned Darts description! Though it is a bit confusing as the poisons description specifically mentions the darts, so maybe the effect is different depending on what ability applied it?
Can devs please confirm? Losing that vulnerability would be a huge downside

 

[Tilomere]

Henshin Mystic
Henshin Mystic focuses on elemental power and defenses.

• Cores:
  • Riddle of Fire now gains "While you are centered, you can use your Wisdom modifier to hit" in addition to its other effects.
  • The casting time on Ki Bolt is reduced. Ki Bolt also gains "While you are centered, you can use your Wisdom modifier for damage. In addition, while you are Centered, you gain +2 Ki each time you hit a creature. This stacks with all other sources of Ki generation." Not useful, as no wisdom to damage, and caster/imbue dps isn't that great. Add 5% universal spell crit damage to this and Ki Bolt.
  • Sounding Staff is now Cauldron of Flame. Most of it remains the same, but "you personally gain +20 PRR, +10 MRR, and +15% Dodge that ignores Dodge Cap" changes to "you personally gain PRR equal to your Monk level, MRR equal to your Monk level, and Dodge that ignores Dodge Cap equal to 5 + half your Monk Level." It also grants +15% Competence Bonus to Quarterstaff Attack Speed. (The identical speed boost in Rogue Acrobat's Thief Acrobatics will also be typed Competence at this time). Not useful for caster dps as Cauldron has 200% scaling instead of 300% scaling on Ki Bolt, so it nerfs your ED and legendary proc synergy. Slight nerf to caster dps as quick draw was more useful. Add 10% universal spell crit damage.
  • Incinerating Wave now changes elemental damage if you have a non-Fire Elemental Soul Imbue active. Not useful for caster dps as incinerating wave is bugged and drops all stacks of arcane warrior which is a loss of dps, and base ability is a loss of dps over auto attacking. Add 10% universal spell crit damage.
  • Cauldron of Flame is now Improved Cauldron: The cooldown timer on Cauldron of Flames is now halved. You may now move a small range outside your Cauldron without it collapsing. Not useful for caster dps as Cauldron has 200% scaling instead of 300% scaling on Ki Bolt, so it nerfs your ED and legendary proc synergy, as base Cauldron caster dps isn't worth the difference. Needs to increase Cauldron to 300% melee scaling. Add 20% universal spell crit damage.
  • Serenity removes the text "and wielding a Quarterstaff" and replaces it with "and Centered", letting you gain the bonus crit while in the Cauldron with other weapons. The Attack Speed for Quarterstaves is removed (see Cauldron of Flame). Not useful or relevant for caster dps. Add 20% universal spell crit damage.
• Tier 1:
  • Elemental Words now grants you all four of the attacks, which now share a cooldown. The attacks are no longer combo moves, but instead gain the damage from the defunct elemental combo builders: 1d6 Elemental damage. Having Adept/Master/Grandmaster of Forms upgrades this damage to 2d6/2d10/2d20. Fine, slight nerf to the few people that used multiple in a row for vulnerability. Add 1% universal spell crit.
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and Damage while Centered. (Antireq: Shintao Studies and Ninjutsu. Essentially, you can only take one Attack+Damage line.) Fine.
  • Mystic Training is removed (no longer using Finishing Move DCs anywhere) and replaced with Ki Shout (formerly in Shintao) Not useful for caster dps, monks don't have the PRR/MRR/HP to tank harder raids, casters don't have tank stats generally, and QQ will pick up and AOE hold mobs otherwise while also doing damage.
  • Negotiator is removed, and replaced with Exemplar (formerly in Shintao) Fine.
• Tier 2:
  • Elemental Words is replaced with Elemental Soul: You gain four Imbue toggles, one for each of Fire, Cold, Electric, and Acid. When toggled, you enhance your attacks with ki, dealing 1d6 (Element) damage on hit, and an additional 1d6 Force damage on crit. Your Ki Spells also apply the (Element) portion of this damage. This damage scales with the highest of Melee and Ranged Power. Fine. Add 1% universal spell crit as it is weaker than other classes imbues.
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered. Fine.
  • Quick Strike moves to Shintao, and is replaced by Conditioning from that tree. Major nerf not replaced with caster dps, as caster geared monks generally have lower doublestrike.
  • Elemental Ki Strikes is removed (it's in Shintao), and replaced with Embrace the Void, which moves down from Tier 3. Moderate nerf, as many Henshin used them not replaced with caster dps. Void Strike is irrelevant, as hitting a button 20x for one instakill effect is pointless. Add a vorpal strikes multi-selector that becomes improved with monk stances.
• Tier 3:
  • Elemental Words is replaced with Mystic Kata:
    • Light Path: Kata of Wind: Activate to grant you and nearby allies 20% Concealment for 60 seconds. (90 second cooldown, costs 10 ki)
    • Dark Path: Kata of Ice: You perform an attack that encases a tainted target in ice on a failed Will save for 10 seconds. (DC = 10 + STR/DEX/WIS modifier + Monk level + Stunning DC boosts). Costs 20 ki, 12 second cooldown Add 2% universal spell crit, as this is 0 dps.
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered. Fine.
  • Lighting the Candle is gone, replaced with T2 Elemental Soul. It is replaced with Mantra of Body: +2/4/6 PRR Too small a value for Tier 3 compared to other classes defensive stance +25 PRR/MRR. Add 15 Universal Spell Power.
  • NEW: Clear Your Mind: Battle Trance: While Centered, you gain an Insight bonus to Attack, Damage and the DC of Tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Wisdom modifier for 30/60/120 seconds. Cooldown: 20 seconds. Activation Cost: 30 Ki. The effects of this Trance are dispelled if you are no longer Centered. Antirequisite: This ability can not be trained if you have any other Battle Trance ability (e.g. Know the Angles). Fine, useful melee dps ability will help caster geared monks hit.
• Tier 4:
  • Elemental Words is replaced with Mystic Kata:
    • Light Path: Kata of Deep Magic: When you use Kata of Wind, you grant you and other allies a 25% reduction in Spell Point Cost for 60 seconds.
    • Dark Path: Kata of Dark Stars: You use the power of the stars to set up harmonic vibrations within your enemy that force them to dance for 12 seconds. (DC = 10 + STR/DEX/WIS modifier + Monk level + Stunning DC boosts). Costs 20 ki, 12 second cooldown 0 DPS, add 2% universal spell crit.
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered. Fine.
  • NEW: Mantra of Soul: +2/4/6 MRR Pointless, as monks are MRR Capped, and not anywhere close to what a defensive stance would do for example of giving another class 25 PRR/MRR. Add 2/4/6 MRR Cap and 20 Universal Spell Power.
• Tier 5:
  • Void Strike is no longer a Void combo builder. Otherwise, remains the same. Not worth hitting 20x for an instant kill effect. Add a multi-selector with 15 Universal Spell Power and 15 MRR Cap.
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +3 to Attack and Damage while Centered. Add 15 Universal Spell Power, 5 MRR Cap.
  • Staff Specialization is now Mystic Honing, +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier and Threat Range. Passive: You gain a +25% Competence bonus to maximum hit points. Fine.
  • Balance In Dawn's attacks are no longer Light/Dark builders. 0 DPS on red names, 0 scaling healing. Not worth hitting past heroics, Upgrade to Energy Drain at grandmaster stance or add a multi-selector with 15 Universal Spell Power and 15 MRR Cap.

Comments in Red above. I don't see a future for HeM (casting) other than as a trance splash for Shintao in the future without some updates enabling it to scale into epic/legendary casting (spell power/spell crit/spell crit multiplier).

Shurikens + Shoot First are too powerful under new NiS.

Shintao with HeM Quick strike are too powerful. It is now the doublestrike, healing, tanking, self-rezzing, CCing, DPS tree.

 

[Eme]

just a thing to also consider, the new heal will be heavily reduced in reaper.

Healing curse wasn't, as it was something that came back to you. THis is one of the main reasons I chose monk, and now, is one of the main reasons I will be leaving.

 

[SpardaX]

With the finishers removed, what becomes of this effect? Will it just activate based on the shintao light / dark attack since they're mostly the light / dark finishers recycled?

https://ddowiki.com/page/Balanced_Ki_Strike

 

[J1NG]

With the finishers removed, what becomes of this effect? Will it just activate based on the shintao light / dark attack since they're mostly the light / dark finishers recycled?

https://ddowiki.com/page/Balanced_Ki_Strike

Judging by history; The effect found on the item will be changed. Either to Finisher/Kata use, or set to a lower static number instead (because no more Opportunity/Cost involved if static bonus).

J1NG

 

[J1NG]

just a thing to also consider, the new heal will be heavily reduced in reaper.

Healing curse wasn't, as it was something that came back to you. THis is one of the mian reasons I chose monk, and now, is one of the main reasons I will be leaving.

But don't you see how powerful a 0 Spell Point Mass Blur is? /s (see one of SteelStars previous posts)

To be honest, I'm near the same point you are. I'll wait and see the first Lamannia preview for this, but if it remains as terrible as I think it is (and I'm usually not wrong), then I'll be reincarnating all me and my familys toons out from any Monks we play (why play an inferior version of other classes or builds when you can play as them - a better Monk class/build, instead?). I will only maintain my main as a Monk class for legacy reasons.

J1NG

 

[Monkey_Archer]

Shurikens + Shoot First are too powerful under new NiS.

You will play everything as inquisitive and you will like it.

 

[Celtic]

Hmmm I'd really miss the fists of light attack - it may not provide much healing but given the speed of attacks it can certainly help. The info for hand of healing doesnt state whether it is effect by anything i.e. scales with melee power/spell power, probably not but wanted to check. Same applies for some of the other finishers for some people - would it not be possible to put various current attacks/finishers into even one or two multiselectors so that people can still retain their favorite? The cost/cooldown could be adjust so that they are not overpower and limiting it to just one should reduce the chance of unforeseen issues.

Secondly - you have both stunning fist and quivering palm using the highest of str/dex/wis as well as some of the abilties in the ninja tree but the trance only supports wisdom, now any monk is likely to try to keep wisdom reasonably high for the additional benefits (will save, AC etc) but if you're wanting to go the route of a str or dex monk it seems like you're losing out.

There's still nothing in any of the trees with regards to MRR cap. Whilst monks do have evasion there are a lot of spells, particularly DOTs, that can't be evaded and we have no way of increasing MRR cap prior to epic levels, and even there we are dependent on using either filigree set bonues or wait until level 30 to get an increase in the GOF tree, although we do get a reduction in elemental damage a little earlier than that. I think that the MRR cap should slowly increase over time across heroic/epic/legendary levels. Especially true in that spell resistance in the D&D rules also applies to damage spells which it doesnt in DDO.

And finally there's the question of ki - now that everything is agnostic weapons wise there's a number of ways to increase how much ki you get per hit in the 3 trees regardless of weapon type. Add in the late game items that can given +4/+5 to ki on hit and you're looking at a lot of ki being generated, probably more than you can actually use in a lot of case. If ki is supposed to be a limiting factor for monk abilities then it may not really be a factor at all in future.

Oh and one final, final, thing - the stances don't seem that balanced with water seeming to give a lot more than the others in some ways, +13 to dodge, +5 to saves and +1 to passive regen in addition to the usual +4 to stat. Maybe consider improving the other stances. With regards to the wind stance the 15% bonus to attack speed doesnt stack either with haste or the many items available that provide the same bonus but also give you the movement bonus as well. Could you consider either adding in the movement bonus to the stance or changing the bonus to a stacking increase e.g 1, 2, 3, 5% increase in attack speed, as its stands its often redundant as a lot of item sets will include this. You might also want to consider revisiting the DR reduction in perfect self - in D&D 10 DR is a lot, in DDO its not. You could either up it a bit, or change it to a smaller % reduction in damage.

 

[droid327]

• Monks need a way to spend more ki. There should be consideration for buffing all abilities with increased ki cost. At some point as a monk ki is in a state of constant overflow when in combat, it would be very thematic and feel extremely nice to be able to utilize this effectively. (some sort of metamagic, repeat use power up/cost, or extra powerful version of the abilities)

This. That's why i suggested that there be some "ki dump" skills that spend all your ki for increased effect per point spent. That would really change the way monks approach resource management, making ki gen and max ki much more valuable too, and giving the class a more unique playstyle closer to the "finisher" style some monks are lamenting

Or additionally, a semi dump: once activated, you have like a 1 or 2 sec window to repeatedly use the skill for a fixed ki cost, before the cd kicks in. So you could spend more ki for more effect as desired. That might be better for something like healing ki, or a barrage of ki bolts

 

[droid327]

You might also want to consider revisiting the DR reduction in perfect self - in D&D 10 DR is a lot, in DDO its not. You could either up it a bit, or change it to a smaller % reduction in damage.

At this point, all flat dr should either be converted to a percentile bonus like prr, or change the calculation so that flat dr applies after percentile reductions, where it's actually useful

 

[pame12]

And they have everything already in place:

Sun Beam.

Ki Cost versions: 50, 100, 200, 400 Ki.

Damage is multiplied by Melee Power x1, x2, x3, x4

J1NG

Come on @SteelStar !!!

 

[Thal]

Devs, does the technology exist in the game to enable something like

If 30 Ki, Cauldron of Flame: normal effects
If 300 Ki, Super Cauldron of Flame: double effects

Because if that were the case, then just tune down finishers/etc (which we obviously disagree with in terms of what broken/OP means anyway but) and add more powerful versions that just cost more ki and require the 'Forms' feats.

Make Monks addicted to Ki, go crazy, make an AoE 'Shining Star' attack that actually plays the song Earth, Wind & Fire for 1,000 Ki. (the community will help fund acquisition of relevant copyrights)

 

[Havocthedemon1]

Come on @SteelStar !!!

I can’t not vote for anything that remotely resembles this in DDO. I’ll pay for this. Name. The. Price.

 

[J1NG]

Devs, does the technology exist in the game to enable something like

If 30 Ki, Cauldron of Flame: normal effects
If 300 Ki, Super Cauldron of Flame: double effects

Because if that were the case, then just tune down finishers/etc (which we obviously disagree with in terms of what broken/OP means anyway but) and add more powerful versions that just cost more ki and require the 'Forms' feats.

Make Monks addicted to Ki, go crazy, make an AoE 'Shining Star' attack that actually plays the song Earth, Wind & Fire for 1,000 Ki. (the community will help fund acquisition of relevant copyrights)

The first part might be doable, but the other stuff, tied to stances, etc. would require time that the Devs either don't have or don't want to invest into (so it can be expanded in the future because they don't know the class as well as players do).

That is why I suggested the use of Sun Beam (big one hitter)/Sun Bolt (big beam hitter), as that will just be a spell pulled from an existing spell/effect and you can leave it at that in most cases. Same as your first suggestion portion.

J1NG

 

[Thal]

The first part might be doable, but the other stuff, tied to stances, etc. would require time that the Devs either don't have or don't want to invest into (so it can be expanded in the future because they don't know the class as well as players do).

That is why I suggested the use of Sun Beam (big one hitter)/Sun Bolt (big beam hitter), as that will just be a spell pulled from an existing spell/effect and you can leave it at that in most cases. Same as your first suggestion portion.

J1NG

Fair enough, I wonder how absurd a "Spellbook" for Monks would be, just change the text box to read "Techniques" and make them cost Ki instead

Then you could just have all the enhancement trees grant the techniques to be hotbar'd

 

[Viamel]

Fair enough, I wonder how absurd a "Spellbook" for Monks would be, just change the text box to read "Techniques" and make them cost Ki instead

Then you could just have all the enhancement trees grant the techniques to be hotbar'd

This is definitely entering the realm of the disciple archetype for discussion but I agree that if they want a ki caster archetype to work it needs some diversity in its spell options

 

[SpardaX]

Shurikens + Shoot First are too powerful under new NiS.

If this means that you're using Shoot First the Inquisitive attack with Shuriken, that doesn't seem to work anymore. At least not for me. It did work for me just after the crossbow changes happened (so october some time) but now I try and use both Shoot first and Shoot later, and in both attacks it just does not throw a shuriken at all.

 

[Pretty Good Old One]

If this means that you're using Shoot First the Inquisitive attack with Shuriken, that doesn't seem to work anymore. At least not for me. It did work for me just after the crossbow changes happened (so october some time) but now I try and use both Shoot first and Shoot later, and in both attacks it just does not throw a shuriken at all.

I am seeing the same thing with Shoot First. I tried shuriken when Shoot First became area attack, and it worked well. Now it does not work with thrown weapons or bows, just cross bows... which unfortunately matches the description now.