U72 Early Look 2: Monk Revamp

[Tilomere]

Since trees are supposed to be weapon agnostic, shouldn't they all have ranged power in excess of melee power for bow/shuriken users, attacks that work with ranged, and doubleshot?

Ahh thank you for letting me know they stealth nerfed shoot first after years.

 

[Xeang]

This forum post is slowing down on the 2nd pass regarding the monk trees and within the apex of responses and opinions two strong themes emerge consistently amidst many other excellent points at times:

1. A large significant number of posters are calling for a reversal on the Fist of Light / Touch of Despair strikes that have been negated in both renditions of the new 'improved' monk. While never seen as over strong, in fact some poo-pooed the ability as useful especially in epics, this has been an effectual contribution of the monk to help people top of their hit points or debuff the enemies. Why can't two simple clickies remain as they function now (without of course building to finishers). Why can't they be "free" as they are now when one chooses their philosophy at level 3?

2. Secondly a plethora of monk players want the many options of elemental strikes and their finishers still available to continue diversity and fun of the monk. These were never considered over-powered in the last 10 years. While definitely helpful to players and groups sometimes, they were more about contributing flavor and some unique abilities. I'm not sure why that list of 12 finishers can be made available for monks to choose among every 2 or 3 levels. If one thinks a single click makes them suddenly over-powered then space them out through monk levels 1-20 (rather most at level 3 available currently) or make them cost more ki to use, or use a longer cooldown or some combination of this.

Both these themes come through the posts repetitively and are seen and strong nerfs to monks uniqueness, diversity of play, and fun. I vote with them -- please in revamping the monk leave what works and is enjoyed unchanged as much as possible.

Thanks from this monastery of monks.

 

[Phaedra]

Or additionally, a semi dump: once activated, you have like a 1 or 2 sec window to repeatedly use the skill for a fixed ki cost, before the cd kicks in. So you could spend more ki for more effect as desired. That might be better for something like healing ki, or a barrage of ki bolts

I think the problem with this is the issue of global cooldowns that Steelstar mentioned as an issue for making combo builders faster and more responsive.

For a Ki dump, how about a toggle that grants melee/ranged/spell power that doubles every tick at a cost that doubles every tick as well (Something like Divine Form from Scourge, but with an increasing Ki cost instead of a hard timer.) Maybe give it an end condition so no level of ki generation will grant 100% uptime like, "After 60 seconds, all remaining Ki is released in a burst of energy (Dark Path: 1d2 Negative/Poison damage per point of ki in a wise area, scaling with Melee/Range Power and inflict a negative level on all affected enemies; Light Path: 1d2 Positive Energy Healing in a wide area, scaling with melee/ranged power and all affected allies receive a restoration effect. If the tech allows, add "if more than 100 Ki is spent this way inflict 1d4 Negative levels / Greater Restoration")

 

[Shall]

Fair enough, I wonder how absurd a "Spellbook" for Monks would be, just change the text box to read "Techniques" and make them cost Ki instead

Then you could just have all the enhancement trees grant the techniques to be hotbar'd

It wouldn't be that absurd, just call it mysticism and/or lean into the references to psionics monks already have in the Eberron setting. If I did it, it would probably use the paladin spells known design of four levels of spells with 4 slots each. First level has basic elemental strikes added as innate attacks that give one stack of a specific element buff (stacks to three and gaining a different element clears all existing stack) as a multi selector like resist energy instead of that whole 4 separate spells despite sharing a cooldown silliness they have been doing lately. There would also be a generic elemental finisher spell that adds say 20% damage and uses the system the fatesinger epic strike of upgrading discord to stun to add the effect from the relevant current finisher if you have built up three stacks of a given element buff. Ki bolt as a normal spell instead of innate attack could be the third spell (henshin would still get an sla version so to rotate between the two) Maybe tumble just to have a fourth spell.

2nd spell level introduces philosophy spells. I'd probably have one of two separate alignment finishers granted based on philosophy that can consume three buff stacks to activate the current elemental light or dark finishers. Healing Ki and touch of despair would just be standalone abilities useable on demand but with an appropriate cooldown, no longer finishers. Likewise fists of light and fists of darkness would not longer be builders, just abilities used for their utility (I would probably add something to fists of darkness to make it as useful as fists of light. Maybe some temp HP when killing an enemy reminiscent of the current impending doom ninjutsu so dark monks can use it to power the hp requirement of karmic strike. Just make it actually scale with something instead of a static 25 hp so dark monks aren't totally reliant on wholeness of body) Maybe add incinerating wave to fill the 4th spell slot.

3rd level maybe add Ki explosion, keeping with monks getting better ki spell progression than sacred fists. Also curse of the void and shining star I guess as non finisher abilities with a cooldown equivalent to building a combo. I don't know what for a fourth spell, DDoor like monks get in tabletop 3.5 would be nice, but might be asking too much. Or maybe a short term buff that adds melee power to ki abilities as something to burn up excess ki during a boss fight when you want to burn an enemy down like a spellcaster using fully metamagiced spells.

4th level I've already run out of monk abilities already in the game so I don't know. Maybe a resurrection ability with a massive ki cost or level drain ability depending on philosophy. I would say a self buff to mrr cap scaling with monk level, but I think we all know that will never happen. Maybe a self buff to elemental absorption and a separate self buff to light/alignment damage absorption, nothing major, just something to help deal with the low mrr in a way that's less convenient so it won't be considered overpowered. Maybe a persistent aoe damage ki spell (Wall of Ki?). Cauldron of flame might be asking too much with the self buff it provides henshins, unless it had a very high ki cost compared to the sla, enough so while it can be used in case you need to move out of you cauldron and lose the buffs during a boss mechanic it would quickly exhaust your ki if spammed carelessly.

 

[J1NG]

I highly doubt the Devs will implement anything like a spellbook for the Monk. Not because they can't, but because they have a very weird idea of what counts as Opportunity/Cost. As well as being short on available time.

Key in point is the quote I am often bringing up recently by SteelStar:

(Describing the Air Light Air Finisher) A 0 (zero) Spell Point "Mass Blur"

Somehow forgetting that it requires Ki to cast, so you need to actually hit things first to generate that Ki at low levels, or have enough standing Ki in the first place (levelled up enough) before you can cast it from the get go.

Then of course there is a proposed 90 second cooldown whilst the effect is only 60 seconds, so you can't even keep this up by meleeing enough and having enough Ki stored up for when it is useful (first few levels only), before it becomes utterly pointless because of the years of content where the Devs just dropped True Seeing on everything or now has enemies that ignore Concealment by and large in the first place (either through attacks or now having AOE attacks/effects or spells).

Compare this to having UMD (scroll/wand) or having a friendly caster about (hireling or player) to provide Blur, the Blur they provide lasts longer and has no cooldown.

At early levels? Maybe there is a difference. But as the Devs themselves have noted, not all Finishers scaled well as things levelled on and thus needed a change (but they saw it become "too good" - whatever that means when they tried to improve things). So they kept the SAME Finishers, thinking that if they artificially locked them behind an upgrade path that THEY decided (not the player) and are trying to sell to us that this is now better.

Think about it. The original ones they agree were rubbish. Now they changed the name and locked them into a one way upgrade only (so you HAVE to pick up the upgrade path THEY want you to have to try and make it seem better).

Let me ask every one of you this:

If you could pick up this ("amazingly good") 0 (zero) Spell Point Mass Blur at T4 as an upgrade, instead of needing to pick it up at T3 first, or indeed just picking it up at all vs any other Finisher, would ANY of you even do so?

I think we all know the answer to that.

It's basically a dead effect soon after early levels. And yet, they don't want to update it with the appropriate effort put in, also want to lock it behind the Path you take (so you don't have a choice, which if they had time to make alternatives would then become an actual hard choice to pick), so that there's reason to say that it's a viable choice at all levels.

No, the spellbook or Feat selection process is too simple, but requires too much work. Won't be done.

J1NG

 

[pame12]

I think the problem with this is the issue of global cooldowns that Steelstar mentioned as an issue for making combo builders faster and more responsive.

For a Ki dump, how about a toggle that grants melee/ranged/spell power that doubles every tick at a cost that doubles every tick as well (Something like Divine Form from Scourge, but with an increasing Ki cost instead of a hard timer.) Maybe give it an end condition so no level of ki generation will grant 100% uptime like, "After 60 seconds, all remaining Ki is released in a burst of energy (Dark Path: 1d2 Negative/Poison damage per point of ki in a wise area, scaling with Melee/Range Power and inflict a negative level on all affected enemies; Light Path: 1d2 Positive Energy Healing in a wide area, scaling with melee/ranged power and all affected allies receive a restoration effect. If the tech allows, add "if more than 100 Ki is spent this way inflict 1d4 Negative levels / Greater Restoration")

I would really like a type of temp transformation ability, almost like going ssj.
The one I was thinking of was in stages, something similar to the soulfist class from lost ark.
It's basically a clickie that when activated, puts you into stage 1, costs 50 ki, at stage 1 you get +5 melee/ranged power, +5% attack/mov action boost speed. This lasts for 20 seconds, during this time you can either choose to let it finish, which will give you a debuff that lasts for 30 seconds and during this debuff you can't use that clikie again (I don't think it should have any other debuffs, maybe low stuff like you can't meditate during this time anymore).

At stage 2, you get +15 melee/ranged power, +10% attack/move actionboost, but 2x multiplier to costs to every ability, including going to the next stage. Lasts for 30 seconds. Again, you can choose to continue to next stage at any point, or it will finish and give you a debuff that lasts 45 seconds.

And this would go on up to stage 5 I think would be cap with a final boost of +40 melee/ranged power, 25% move/attack actionboost, 4x multiplier on everything, lasting 1 minute, but would give you a debuff lasting 3 minutes.

Maybe make it a final capstone on the tree, not sure which one though, henshin seems most appropriate? Or shintao?

 

[Phaedra]

I would really like a type of temp transformation ability, almost like going ssj.
The one I was thinking of was in stages, something similar to the soulfist class from lost ark.
It's basically a clickie that when activated, puts you into stage 1, costs 50 ki, at stage 1 you get +5 melee/ranged power, +5% attack/mov action boost speed. This lasts for 20 seconds, during this time you can either choose to let it finish, which will give you a debuff that lasts for 30 seconds and during this debuff you can't use that clikie again (I don't think it should have any other debuffs, maybe low stuff like you can't meditate during this time anymore).

At stage 2, you get +15 melee/ranged power, +10% attack/move actionboost, but 2x multiplier to costs to every ability, including going to the next stage. Lasts for 30 seconds. Again, you can choose to continue to next stage at any point, or it will finish and give you a debuff that lasts 45 seconds.

And this would go on up to stage 5 I think would be cap with a final boost of +40 melee/ranged power, 25% move/attack actionboost, 4x multiplier on everything, lasting 1 minute, but would give you a debuff lasting 3 minutes.

Maybe make it a final capstone on the tree, not sure which one though, henshin seems most appropriate? Or shintao?

For scaling purposes, Look at the Divine Form ability in Scourge. My thought was add a Ki cost ad remove the penalties from that ability. Doubling the cost every 2 seconds (Maybe that's too much? How about 25 Ki to initiate 1% +5MP/RP and +10 USP per stage, with the stage increasing every 12 seconds, and the Ki cost increasing each stage. At 60 sec, if it is still toggled on, all remaining Ki is spent to power the burst effect. (Total cost 25+50+100+150+200+All remaining Ki spent at 0,12,24,36,48,60 sec.) It would turn off early automatically if you don't have enough Ki to spend for the next stage.

 

[Uska]

well I almost but a bunch of points and Otto boxes to give my monk on Cormyr a leg up glad I didn't

 

[Eme]

Maybe make it a final capstone on the tree, not sure which one though, henshin seems most appropriate? Or shintao?

At least you are trying to come up with creative alternatives !
But to me this doesn't feel like monk, it feels like a barbarian thing, Barbarians (instant buff) rage then get tired, but monks have always been the opposite and go in the opposite direction, they charge up to keep going , it's the flow of battle that keeps them going.
So, thematically, I would disagree with the idea of a debuff and downer to them, by doing what makes them, as they start off from the debuff (low Ki) state.

 

[Tianblade]

one small thing, get ride of the negative parts of the stances, with all the loses of abilities, this would be a nice little change.

 

[Tianblade]

Going to repost this, cause I think it would be a great change.

At 3rd level when picking Philosophies, if you pick light, just have it give a toggled feat, that gains the Healing shield ability to every hit, scale it down, and have it stack on a mob. Have stacks slowly be removed over time, so the monk has to stay on the mob. This means the healing given to the monk and others, increases the longer the monk attacks the mob (so more healing against bosses and high reaper mobs). While only giving a low amount in normal combat. Keep the other healing things in the enhancement trees.

Have something along these lines that fit the dark side, like maybe apply a curse or something.

​

 

[pame12]

well I almost but a bunch of points and Otto boxes to give my monk on Cormyr a leg up glad I didn't

Sadly I did thinking the monk rework would be good, or at least reasonable. I haven't used them yet, can they be refunded?

 

[pame12]

At least you are trying to come up with creative alternatives !
But to me this doesn't feel like monk, it feels like a barbarian thing, Barbarians (instant buff) rage then get tired, but monks have always been the opposite and go in the opposite direction, they charge up to keep going , it's the flow of battle that keeps them going.
So, thematically, I would disagree with the idea of a debuff and downer to them, by doing what makes them, as they start off from the debuff (low Ki) state.

I agree as well that the debuff shouldn't be there, but it was more of giving the devs an idea on how to track the different stages.
It'd be great if there was no debuff and you could just keep going up the stages as long as you are able to obtain/sustain enough ki, but the fact that +20% mass blur is considered OP by devs doesn't bode well sadly...

The fact that they also didn't even think about adding in at least +1 tumble charges to the ninja tree is a bit insane I think too.

 

[l_remmie]

Judging by history; The effect found on the item will be changed. Either to Finisher/Kata use, or set to a lower static number instead (because no more Opportunity/Cost involved if static bonus).

J1NG

I doubt the thought of changing monk-based items even crossed their mind.

 

[saekee]

I highly doubt the Devs will implement anything like a spellbook for the Monk. Not because they can't, but because they have a very weird idea of what counts as Opportunity/Cost. As well as being short on available time.

Key in point is the quote I am often bringing up recently by SteelStar:

(Describing the Air Light Air Finisher) A 0 (zero) Spell Point "Mass Blur"

Somehow forgetting that it requires Ki to cast, so you need to actually hit things first to generate that Ki at low levels, or have enough standing Ki in the first place (levelled up enough) before you can cast it from the get go.

Then of course there is a proposed 90 second cooldown whilst the effect is only 60 seconds, so you can't even keep this up by meleeing enough and having enough Ki stored up for when it is useful (first few levels only), before it becomes utterly pointless because of the years of content where the Devs just dropped True Seeing on everything or now has enemies that ignore Concealment by and large in the first place (either through attacks or now having AOE attacks/effects or spells).

Compare this to having UMD (scroll/wand) or having a friendly caster about (hireling or player) to provide Blur, the Blur they provide lasts longer and has no cooldown.

At early levels? Maybe there is a difference. But as the Devs themselves have noted, not all Finishers scaled well as things levelled on and thus needed a change (but they saw it become "too good" - whatever that means when they tried to improve things). So they kept the SAME Finishers, thinking that if they artificially locked them behind an upgrade path that THEY decided (not the player) and are trying to sell to us that this is now better.

Think about it. The original ones they agree were rubbish. Now they changed the name and locked them into a one way upgrade only (so you HAVE to pick up the upgrade path THEY want you to have to try and make it seem better).

Let me ask every one of you this:

If you could pick up this ("amazingly good") 0 (zero) Spell Point Mass Blur at T4 as an upgrade, instead of needing to pick it up at T3 first, or indeed just picking it up at all vs any other Finisher, would ANY of you even do so?

I think we all know the answer to that.

It's basically a dead effect soon after early levels. And yet, they don't want to update it with the appropriate effort put in, also want to lock it behind the Path you take (so you don't have a choice, which if they had time to make alternatives would then become an actual hard choice to pick), so that there's reason to say that it's a viable choice at all levels.

No, the spellbook or Feat selection process is too simple, but requires too much work. Won't be done.

J1NG

well sacred fist has spells using ki

 

[Pretty Good Old One]

The more I think about it, the Ninja Spy just doesn't feel as mystical as it did before. The dark path attack and finishers really made it feel different than the other two Monk trees. With all 3 trees (4 if you count Dragon Disciple) getting dark abilities, Ninja Spy seems less unique.

The different focuses between the trees makes sense, but I would love to see Ninja Spy lean into the dark side more.

The tree has lost: level drains, temp HP on kills, and a poison build up finisher. It has also lost access to auto crit for a HP sacrifice. That is a lot of dark side flavor as well as power. If the finishers have to go away, can more of this get put back in?

Some ideas:
Give Ninja Spy a choice at level 6, 12, 18 cores like pale master. preferably even add a choice at level 3, so you get something for choosing the dark path:

1. Pale Maste secondary imbue (~1d8 negative damage plus level drain on crit - preferably also working with shuriken).
2. Half Orc style auto crit with HP cost and ~ 20ki activation cost.
3. Temp HP/KI ability - maybe something as simple as - Sneak Atack: 10 ki, +20% - single opponent, adds assassinate skill to damage - If target is killed, gain 25 temp hp and 25 ki. (if easier to code, a tiny window (1-3s) where if you kill something you gain the bonus.
4. Poison Builder - Sneak Attack: 10ki, + 20% damage - single opponent, if damage - ad one stack of Ninja posion every 5 seconds per the old finisher.


And a more extreme idea, as I am a fan of gnomes:

Give the Ninja Spy a Symbol (call it Dark Arts), that it can cast as a KI burning SLA as a Tier 4 or 5 ability. Symbol or Pain or Death are most thematic. At least 60 second cool down. I know they are high level spells, but they rarely get used. Would giving a level 6 or 12 Ninja Spy the ability to create a symbol of death every 5 minutes be over powered? (It only drains 1 level per time through the symbol).

 

[Phaedra]

If you could pick up this ("amazingly good") 0 (zero) Spell Point Mass Blur at T4 as an upgrade, instead of needing to pick it up at T3 first, or indeed just picking it up at all vs any other Finisher, would ANY of you even do so?

Would not take this for 1AP in tier 1.

Playing on normal, this is surpassed by any arcane caster at level 3.
Playing on R1, it doesn't even do anything.
(You knew this, of course, but apparently at least one dev doesn't, I guess?)

 

[SilentRunning]

This may be not popular among some players, that said here goes.

The thing that I've wanted to see in regard to a monk revamp was either a removal of the builders and keep ALL the finishers for a Ki cost and a slightly longer cd or remove the universal cd of the builders.

 

[Putti]

You mention that Ninja Spy has a focus on assassination, but it doesn't actually have assassinate or any other insta-kill abilities. I guess you could say that the vorpal effect on the capstone is an assasination, but that won't affect many mobs once you reach that level.

 

[droid327]

I think the problem with this is the issue of global cooldowns that Steelstar mentioned as an issue for making combo builders faster and more responsive.

For a Ki dump, how about a toggle that grants melee/ranged/spell power that doubles every tick at a cost that doubles every tick as well (Something like Divine Form from Scourge, but with an increasing Ki cost instead of a hard timer.) Maybe give it an end condition so no level of ki generation will grant 100% uptime like, "After 60 seconds, all remaining Ki is released in a burst of energy (Dark Path: 1d2 Negative/Poison damage per point of ki in a wise area, scaling with Melee/Range Power and inflict a negative level on all affected enemies; Light Path: 1d2 Positive Energy Healing in a wide area, scaling with melee/ranged power and all affected allies receive a restoration effect. If the tech allows, add "if more than 100 Ki is spent this way inflict 1d4 Negative levels / Greater Restoration")

The problem with those is its only useful in very long fights - or close sequences of fights, but then you have the problem of the old Legendary Dreadnaught where you're penalized for downtime.

Ki dumps that are single burst effects on activation make the most sense, since you can use them strategically, and build up/spend ki more strategically between dump abilities. As long as they're designed well, of course - you cant build them with cooldowns so long that you're basically always at full ki again before they cycle back. If ki generation and spending is the limiter, then it creates strategic and skillful gameplay. Of course you cant also make them so powerful that its not worthwhile to ever spend ki on anything else, either.

But the idea of threshold effects is good - the "if you spend more than X, then Y also occurs". That could work either way