U72 Early Look: Dragon Disciple Monk Archetype

[Phoenicis]

What I would rather see than what they are doing now:
Remove builder/spender
Grant 4 elemental abilities for free at level 1, on a shared cooldown.
At level 3 grant 5 more abilities on the same shared cooldown, based on the path chosen.
IF the T5 Henshin ability is chosen grant the other 5 abilities, still on the same cooldown, that weren't granted at level 3.
At level 20 Grant the Shining star ability, Still on the same cooldown.
Now you can go thru the trees, make them weapon agnostic and tweak the various existing abilities to make them more impactful.

AND you can build a brand NEW tree for the Dragon Disciple (Or steal the AOST/ES tree from warlock) instead of giving abilities back you just removed from basic monks.

This will never happen though.

 

[seph1roth5]

I think a lot of(most?) people are in favor of ditching the builder/spender system itself. It's the loss of many of the unique monk abilities themselves that suck.

Why not just leave the elemental attacks in but not have them be needed for stuff? They could still bump up damage as you get higher stances, and would just be active attacks that add some damage.

Could even tie the old finishers to stances as well. Like...keep them in the enhancement trees, but also have each master stance unlock 1 or 2. Give people who go high up in monk or invest a lot of feats access that way. These things weren't used often but they were EASY to use when you wanted to. So say...the ultimate fire stance would give the fire finisher that's +2 to skills and such. It could cost ki and have a CD of a bit longer than the duration, so it's not 100% uptime but not stupid like 20 sec duration/1 min CD.

 

[QuantumFX]

Core 1: Draconic Studies: While you are centered, you can use your Wisdom modifier to hit. You are centered with one-handed Clubs and Sceptres. Each core ability in this tree grants you +3 Melee Power, +3 Universal Spell Power, and +3 MRR.

I see what you're trying to do here: Allowing clubs opens options for spellpower items. But, I really feel like you should add orbs, aka the other major handheld Spellpower item, as well. This archetype already has proficiency in them, and it will support SWF builds.

 

[glass_jaws]

I see what you're trying to do here: Allowing clubs opens options for spellpower items. But, I really feel like you should add orbs, aka the other major handheld Spellpower item, as well. This archetype already has proficiency in them, and it will support SWF builds.

Yeah totally agree there. Would be neat if they added runearms for centering here (not proficiency. just the option for the epic destiny support if they wanted it as well)

 

[SpardaX]

I know it probably doesnt mean much at this point, but this is what I was hoping a caster monk archtype would look more like.

https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/potential-monk-assumed-or-sorcerer-possibly-archtype-enlightened-fist.1685/

 

[Phaedra]

Yeah totally agree there. Would be neat if they added runearms for centering here (not proficiency. just the option for the epic destiny support if they wanted it as well)

I suspect that Rune Arm centering, if at all, would be in that T4 multiselector where you can opt into other centered weapons.

 

[Finngon]

I think my suggestions to differentiate DrD from normal Monk more would be:

• Don't have elemental stances on DrD. Give something else, like two instead (one for spellcasting, other for melee). IUf you must have elemental stances, make them different from the normal monk, like increasing the fire spellpower if in fire stances, etc.
• Give DrD some more spells. At least through enhancements (rank 3: give elemental bolts, idk) if not through just level ups. Why have Magical Training otherwise..?
• If this is supposed to be like a splash option for spellcasters, making the DrD SLAs at least scale with character level would be a big help, though I'd personally also make their SLAs be WIS, or if you have other multiclassed into another caster, highest of WIS, INT or CHA.
• To compensate for these buffs, reduce the max HP bonus at tier 5 to 15% (same as EK)

 

[Phaedra]

Don't have elemental stances on DrD. Give something else,

It would be cool if they took the time to do this. Give them Dragon Stances instead:
- Gold Dragon Stance : Dragon Awe (CC), Fire (or holy?) breath weapon, Maybe damage reduction/PRR?, other CC abilities (blind on breath attack, small melee AoE stun in T5, maybe a "tail sweep" attack, like the Tabaxi PBAOE trip.
- Black(or Green) Dragon Stance: Acid(poison) breath, debuffing, high stacking damage over time (good for bosses, less good for trash)
- Shadow Dragon Stance: Undead mantle, necrotic damage, insta-kills (Death Glare - like Kukan-DO, but IK, or Mabari Strike - Mechanically Hurl(+ a little for being melee ranged), "push a creature into the plane of Mabar, allowing a shadow step into the material plane to replace it. (lasts 15/30 seconds, deals damage to your target equal to nD6, scales with higher of 200% melee power or 125% negative spellpower)

Why have Magical Training

It's the appendix of the Dragon Disciple, like the Innate Arcanum enhancement. It serves no purpose to the current version of the archetype

I'd personally also make their SLAs be WIS

Yes.

To compensate for these buffs, reduce the max HP bonus at tier 5 to 15% (same as EK)

Seem punitive and unnecessary, this is still a melee gish. Maybe take another look at EK and see if theirs should go up to 25%, since they're starting with a smaller HP pool anyway.

 

[Finngon]

Seem punitive and unnecessary, this is still a melee gish. Maybe take another look at EK and see if theirs should go up to 25%, since they're starting with a smaller HP pool anyway.

It's more on the case of casters going for like 15/5 split then to get the HP bonus while getting some SLAs and USP. Maybe I'm playing it safe, but if so, then have the DrD's max HP thing go to 20% then at most.

 

[Phaedra]

It's more on the case of casters going for like 15/5 split then to get the HP bonus while getting some SLAs and USP. Maybe I'm playing it safe, but if so, then have the DrD's max HP thing go to 20% then at most.

Splitting 5 levels off a caster sacrifices level 9 spells (And T5+Capstone of their own trees) for that 25%HP. I think it won't be a common tradeoff.

 

[Lotoc]

Seem punitive and unnecessary, this is still a melee gish. Maybe take another look at EK and see if theirs should go up to 25%, since they're starting with a smaller HP pool anyway.

tbh all competence HP modifiers should be 20% at a minimum.
EK and VC being 15% makes little sense at this point.
It was broken down into categories when the pass happened that for some reason penalized Eldritch Knight and Vile Chemist for being spellcasters but gave melee clerics and favored souls 20% despite having 9th level spells, gave universal trees 25% and so on.

But the most egregious example is Acolyte of the Skin having 20% competence HP despite only being a pseudomelee when using a cooldown that has a 33% uptime if used as soon as it is up, there is no reason for AotS to have 20% while vile chemist and EK only have 15%, except for the fact that savant trees are pretty bad except the cores so many people would rather have 20% HP
(actually, there's some people who are playing 'bird sorc', going t5 falconry for helpless damage, debuffs and comp HP so leaving EK's comp HP intentionally weak has accomplished nothing.)

 

[Elves United]

Spell DCs and spellpower only useful for the Enhancement tree SLAs. And multiple enhancements in the tree whose only value is to increase the power of the SLAs in the enhancement tree. If you are not going to give Dragon Disciple the ability to cast actual spells then their spell-like abilities should use melee power and tactical DC instead.

 

[Vox]

Could they focus on elemental specialties instead?

So rather than just imbue & damage like dragonlord, the selectors in the trees (in lieu of the combo finishers) amplify the relevant stances & clickies provide boosts congruent to those stances.

Air might have fatal harrier, obscuring mist ki SLA, pearls of thunder strike, and air gfx version of dark discorp

Earth might have shock wave strike, greater stoneskin (or some other ablative DR or % DR), an enhanced earth savant form capstone as a greater tank stance

etc

 

[LurkingVeteran]

I don't understand what this class is supposed to do after L15 or so. It's a melee class but reliant on three average SLAs that quickly get outdated.

At that point it becomes like a dragon lord but worse in every regard. Moreover its a trap. SLAs scale with spell power but scale poorly into late game. Imbues scale with spell power but scale poorly into late game. So at some point you end up with a weaker version of a dragon lord (fighter) based on spell power. If you switch to MP you will be more effective in end game but all the SLA stuff will be useless so you will still be a weaker dragon lord.

Maybe give it some way to convert Spell Power to Melee Power, that might be interesting. Still kinda boring SLAs though. Maybe give it some Ki spells?

 

[LurkingVeteran]

This should probably have been a sorc archetype that replaces EK, then at least you would still have spells to fill the gaps. It would all fit together with minimal effort. I believe in DnD3.5, Dragon Disciple was actually a Sorc prestige class that gave you a bit of tankiness and wings. Why monk really? It would work much better as a type of dragon-flavor AotS for Sorc. The demon transformation could be a dragon transformation (or just dragon wings cosmetics + a fairly strong breath weapon).

 

[Havocthedemon1]

This should probably have been a sorc archetype that replaces EK, then at least you would still have spells to fill the gaps. It would all fit together with minimal effort. I believe in DnD3.5, Dragon Disciple was actually a Sorc prestige class that gave you a bit of tankiness and wings. Why monk really? It would work much better as a type of dragon-flavor AotS for Sorc. The demon transformation could be a dragon transformation (or just dragon wings cosmetics + a fairly strong breath weapon).

There was also a monk archetype of a similar name and a new one in current D&D. Just because you wanted it to be the sorc one doesn’t mean you can cherry pick research and omit what you don’t like.

 

[Efretti]

I honestly don't know how this can be considered even remotely close to Dragonlord, which is a tree full of interesting mechanics, with minimal powercreep and amazing style.
Hybrid spell power/melee power builds have never worked. On top of that fact, the class features (slas) are so underpowered that I wouldn't even see myself using them in heroics.

There are no mechanics in here that would bridge the gap that is created by the necessity of gearing for spell power, spell crit, spell damage, deadly, melee power, doublestrike etc... A build that followed this archetype's intended playstyle would be ineffective and unfun (because why not remove abundant step?).

There are cool ideas in here regarding centering weird weapons which would be amazing if it was paired with features that supported said weapons.

 

[Phaedra]

There are cool ideas in here regarding centering weird weapons which would be amazing if it was paired with features that supported said weapons.

Maybe some kind of 15DD/5DL centered heavy pick user with the DL's melee power scaling imbue and DD's extra imbue dice?

 

[Havocthedemon1]

Bottom line is the tree needs way more spell power if they want the imbues and SLA’s to scale with spell power and not melee power - they should scale with whatever is higher.

And it’s clear the players would rather choose an element to build around and break that immunity for a short time with an attack like dragonlord with sunder than to have “all 5 elements to switch between” as if we are going to hot key 30 different swaps between the SLA’s and imbues for immunes. That’s just outright insanity.

 

[songswrath]

Hybrid builds tend to focus on melee/ranged for damage and DC casting for CC. There are 0 viable builds that focus on DC casting for damage and melee damage to add to this.

Sacred fist and monk use ki-spells but they scale with melee power (and spell critical chance). As the current set-up for this your not going to see anyone use it. It is a complete waste of time for Developers and for players.

If you want to make a SLA build viable you need to double down on it so that your character has an option to do a SLA every second. The closest you have come to this is a Warlock with their eldritch blasts.

If you want to have monks mix in damage effects while using weapons then you need to have those damage effects scale with melee power and doublestrike. You also need the damage effects to not have a save (or save based off of stunning/sunder/trip).

Alternatively you could make it so the SLA provide debuffing effects or crowd control. If you had a SLA that did an AoE stun (color spray or soundburst), or trip (comet fall/command), or some other effect then people might try

Bottom line is the tree needs way more spell power if they want the imbues and SLA’s to scale with spell power and not melee power - they should scale with whatever is higher.

And it’s clear the players would rather choose an element to build around and break that immunity for a short time with an attack like dragonlord with sunder than to have “all 5 elements to switch between” as if we are going to hot key 30 different swaps between the SLA’s and imbues for immunes. That’s just outright insanity.

No the sla's will be worthless if they scale with spell power. Only way it works if they use ki and scale with melee power. If not it's even worse ek.