U72 Early Look: Dragon Disciple Monk Archetype

[Shall]

Bottom line is the tree needs way more spell power if they want the imbues and SLA’s to scale with spell power and not melee power - they should scale with whatever is higher.

And it’s clear the players would rather choose an element to build around and break that immunity for a short time with an attack like dragonlord with sunder than to have “all 5 elements to switch between” as if we are going to hot key 30 different swaps between the SLA’s and imbues for immunes. That’s just outright insanity.

That's a good point. Blightcaster already has a spell, blighted breath, that changes the damage type and even dice based on if you have the biting acid or biting poison imbue active, so why weren't the sla's in this tree done similarly to cut down on clutter from having so many different versions of the same sla's to slot.

No the sla's will be worthless if they scale with spell power. Only way it works if they use ki and scale with melee power. If not it's even worse ek.

Yeah, at least EK can reasonably get 100% uptime on their critical range increase and don't have to wait until the capstone for it.

 

[Lotoc]

One thing that can potentially make dragon disciple both more compelling and solve a fair bit of the gish gearing issue is if there was something along the lines of "Gain an insight bonus to spellpower equal to your melee power."
Not needing to slot insightful spellpower helps a lot, additionally helps with swapping between elements to have a reasonable spellpower floor in all categories.

 

[glass_jaws]

Bottom line is the tree needs way more spell power if they want the imbues and SLA’s to scale with spell power and not melee power - they should scale with whatever is higher.

And it’s clear the players would rather choose an element to build around and break that immunity for a short time with an attack like dragonlord with sunder than to have “all 5 elements to switch between” as if we are going to hot key 30 different swaps between the SLA’s and imbues for immunes. That’s just outright insanity.

At minimum the SLA damage types should switch to your imbue type instead of having different attacks for each element. I assume each of the attacks share a cooldown so no use having 5 different buttons.

 

[Mokune]

It could be fun playing an Eladrin Chaosmancer 4 WildMage for the thing/ 4 FVS stuff /12 DDMonk. Several good SLAs, Utility Spells, Element Immunity strip, Close Wounds SLA and as 2nd level FVS spell. With 10 Feats I'd take Dodge/Mobility/SpringAttack/WW Attack, Max, Emp, Quicken, Enlarge, PL Wiz, Grandmaster Stance.

Could be a hoot...

 

[BuckGB]

There is no point in adding a weapon type like Light Hammer or Light Pick as a T4 enhancement for centering if you're not also going to do something that makes those weapons even remotely viable, damage-wise. As a swashbuckler (which is not a multiclass opportunity due to alignment restrictions), you can get an effective +4 crit range and +1 crit multiplier with a Light Hammer. And even with that, nobody is using a 1d4 weapon when something like a sickle is 1d6 and you can obtain another +1 crit range from Plowshares.

To open up more weapon variety and make these weapons competitive with Handwraps, the Dagger, or the Kukri, either add a feat that expands their crit profile that anyone can take or include an enhancement specifically for DD such as "When centered, +2 crit range with Light Hammers and +1 crit range with Light Picks. These weapons also gain +1W and the crit bonuses are doubled with the appropriate Improved Critical feat."

Please give us a reason to explore different weapon types that have only been used for flavor since the game launched.

 

[irnimnode]

I still don't get it. Why a Monk?

 

[Dielzen]

Past Life ideas:

1 - Each past life gives +10% penetration for IMBUE DICE only
2 - Each past life gives +2 imbue damage (not dice)
3 - Each past life gives +X melee power when dual-wielding
4 - Each past life gives +1 implement bonus to equipped weapons

Active Feat - currently equipped weapons become implements, when centered gain +X USP; passive +Y to elemental spell power

 

[Lotoc]

archetypes don't really grant new active feats so far (which is a shame because blightcaster giving conjure thornblades would be cool)
I could see the past life granting +3 or +2 mrr cap per life and being reasonable although incredibly niche due to only light armor/robes having mrr cap.
I'd really expect something like +1 to hit and +1 to breath DCs but overall it risks breath DCs getting way too inflated alongside dragonlord PLs
+1 to hit +1 mrr cap I'd say is reasonably budgeted but also really underwhelming.

 

[Northwest Ohio]

Reading through all of the comments, the theme seems to be a lack of overall synergy.

Is this a caster or melee archetype? Neither seem to have enough power to be highly successful play styles or offer enough uniqueness for multi-classing.

Some examples include:
Caster monk Spell power is based off of intelligence modifier, while wisdom is used for hit/dmg and DC's.

No meaningfully ways to increase spell crit. (Orbs are very helpful here)

Melee weapons are under whelming for crit's as well and locked down by alignment (can't swashbuckle). Current weapons and feats for those weapons barely increase crit threat multiplier.

It almost reminds me of Dark Apostate, there's some interesting things in the tree, but overall nothing really compels me to use it as there are a number of more practical options

Some simple ideas mentioned in other posts to offset these shortcomings:

-Make the 'caster monk' a caster monk
-Enable players to multi-class into a melee build if they choose.
-Add crit to casting
-Build spell power off of one stat (intelligence or wisdom)
-Remain centered with orbs.

How do you do this? Much of this could be done by making a new feat, a monk-stance, that is intelligence based. Maybe it can level up spell power. The stance could also enable being centered with orb clubs, sceptres etc... Armor Class leverages INT modifier bonus instead of Wisdom,.. Just drop the melee stuff altogether...Maybe the monk archetype is Force Spell focus, and bring ONLY force SLA's and aura bursts into the tree.

Being a stance, and not tree or class driven, when choosing another stance, many of the unique benefits for caster monk would be disabled and limits the potential for being to OP...


My 2 cents, for whatever they are worth.

 

[Ebondevil]

There was also a monk archetype of a similar name and a new one in current D&D. Just because you wanted it to be the sorc one doesn’t mean you can cherry pick research and omit what you don’t like.

Then they should have called it Way of the Ascendant Dragon or just Ascendant Dragon after the 5th Edition Monk Origin

https://dnd5e.wikidot.com/monk:ascendant-dragon

Not Dragon Disciple Prestige Class, which explicitly required Spontaneous spellcasting (Limited to bards and Sorcerers), from 3.5 Edition

The name sets certain expectations, especially when announced well in advance.

 

[Havocthedemon1]

Then they should have called it Way of the Ascendant Dragon or just Ascendant Dragon after the 5th Edition Monk Origin

https://dnd5e.wikidot.com/monk:ascendant-dragon

Not Dragon Disciple Prestige Class, which explicitly required Spontaneous spellcasting (Limited to bards and Sorcerers), from 3.5 Edition

The name sets certain expectations, especially when announced well in advance.

We can argue over semantics but the fact is the name still fits. Bc it didn’t fulfill your expectations you don’t like it - that’s fine. But it was always going to be a monk with the same theme and this is just the name they went with. Do you have anything useful to add to the conversation like feedback on what they showed us so far or are you just stuck on complaining about the name? Dragon sorc literally has an entire destiny devoted to it - get over it already.

 

[Vox]

Past Life ideas:

1 - Each past life gives +10% penetration for IMBUE DICE only
2 - Each past life gives +2 imbue damage (not dice)
3 - Each past life gives +X melee power when dual-wielding
4 - Each past life gives +1 implement bonus to equipped weapons

Active Feat - currently equipped weapons become implements, when centered gain +X USP; passive +Y to elemental spell power

The impliment bonus seems thematic.

Could also see +3 elemental spell power (fire/cold/acid/electric) per life.

I'd love to see +1% universal spell crit damage per life.

 

[SpardaX]

How do you do this? Much of this could be done by making a new feat, a monk-stance, that is intelligence based. Maybe it can level up spell power. The stance could also enable being centered with orb clubs, sceptres etc... Armor Class leverages INT modifier bonus instead of Wisdom,..

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Kung_Fu_Genius

 

[Northwest Ohio]

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Kung_Fu_Genius

I had no idea and I love this - Seems plausible to me. Appreciate your sharing

 

[Anurakh]

Then they should have called it Way of the Ascendant Dragon or just Ascendant Dragon after the 5th Edition Monk Origin

https://dnd5e.wikidot.com/monk:ascendant-dragon

Not Dragon Disciple Prestige Class, which explicitly required Spontaneous spellcasting (Limited to bards and Sorcerers), from 3.5 Edition

The name sets certain expectations, especially when announced well in advance.

I said this from the beginning...

 

[Ociosto]

I'm not a fan of monks being spellcasters. I play LG Shintao monks and I would like to see more imbues in the Shintao tree. Quivering Palm and/or Smite Evil. I'd like to see more elemental attacks. Someone had a great idea of adding Dragon stances. I really like this idea. Maybe even more durability since monks can only wear robes.

 

[Bar Bar Jink]

Something Ive always wanted to see for monk would be some sort of rune arm proficiency/Rune arm centering when using hand wraps. The idea of a monk punching with rune arm on one arm I find really cool.

Not sure how feasible something like this would be to implement, and perhaps its an ability more suited to the Henshin Mystic tree rather than the dragon disciple but its something I think would be a cool way to boost Monk elemental powers.

 

[LurkingVeteran]

There was also a monk archetype of a similar name and a new one in current D&D. Just because you wanted it to be the sorc one doesn’t mean you can cherry pick research and omit what you don’t like.

Uh, cherry pick? First result on google for Dragon Disciple turns up the DnD3.5 PrC I mentioned, so I was spot on. It was exactly like I recalled, a tanky prc for sorcs: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm

We can argue over semantics but the fact is the name still fits. Bc it didn’t fulfill your expectations you don’t like it - that’s fine. But it was always going to be a monk with the same theme and this is just the name they went with. Do you have anything useful to add to the conversation like feedback on what they showed us so far or are you just stuck on complaining about the name? Dragon sorc literally has an entire destiny devoted to it - get over it already.

It has nothing to do with semantics, the DD was originally for sorcs, and as written now it would actually work better on a sorc. I have no horse in this race, I just don't like useless classes and prefer monk got something functional. If you think giving this a bit more spell power is going to make this class work in the end game, you don't understand how the game works. At best it would turn it into a solid heroic TR choice. If you want to keep DD for monk you should come up with some way to make it scale.

 

[woq]

If you think giving this a bit more spell power is going to make this class work in the end game, you don't understand how the game works. At best it would turn it into a solid heroic TR choice. If you want to keep DD for monk you should come up with some way to make it scale.

My perhaps most negative comment/take to date on this:

What's the previous successful demonstration of understanding when it comes to combining these following concepts:

A) Damage from spells / SLAs
B) Scaling
C) Endgame

from SSG...? In a cynical way the DD godawful numbers make perfect sense. They're disrespectful by design. R1 raids and sub-r8 quests for the pesky casters while the cool kids can play in R6+ raids and r10 quests on melee/ranged.

You won't convince me otherwise when melee imbues are doing more per hit than these SLAs that have considerable enhancement point investment in them.

 

[Havocthedemon1]

Uh, cherry pick? First result on google for Dragon Disciple turns up the DnD3.5 PrC I mentioned, so I was spot on. It was exactly like I recalled, a tanky prc for sorcs: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm


It has nothing to do with semantics, the DD was originally for sorcs, and as written now it would actually work better on a sorc. I have no horse in this race, I just don't like useless classes and prefer monk got something functional. If you think giving this a bit more spell power is going to make this class work in the end game, you don't understand how the game works. At best it would turn it into a solid heroic TR choice. If you want to keep DD for monk you should come up with some way to make it scale.

You don’t like the name - it doesn’t change the fact that is what they decided to use. Get over it - it fits the theme and it was never going to be a sorc. Stop crying about it and move on.

And I think you don’t know how the game works. EK is not a “solid heroic TR choice” lol. I use that as an example bc that’s the closest thing we have in game to a hybrid like they are presenting here. EK is just bad. This is just bad. You know what would make EK and this good? Be better at killing things. Inquis would laugh at this like they laugh at EK currently. It’s because it’s weak. Maybe YOU don’t understand the game. Now reply and keep complaining about the name - even though it suits it just fine.