U72 Early Look: Dragon Disciple Monk Archetype

[axel15810]

After looking through the tree - my biggest suggestion is if you want this to work as a hybrid caster/melee you need to add in actual benefits/synergy from doing both casting and melee (so for example every time you cast a spell you get X melee benefit and vice versa), and possibly some passive DPS casting options to make the opportunity cost of doing whichever of the two you are worse at not destroy the hybrid concept. Otherwise it's not going to make sense build-wise on a practical level to play this as a hybrid - just as is the problem with Dark Apostate currently. Add more synergy from doing both.

 

[Elves United]

The trouble with Dragon Disciple is that most of the new abilities ( spellcasting feats, about half the dragon disciple tree, the spellcraft skill ) all go to supporting the SLAs and nothing else. And the SLAs aren't strong enough, reflex saved, and are limited by high cooldowns so they will always be secondary damage. As such the feat and gear choice will go to support the primary attack first and the SLAs will get whatever scraps are left behind and never be effective.

This class reads like it was supposed to be a spellcasting monk and they changed their minds at the last minute and decided to go with SLAs only.

To make this work ....

All SLA spell saves should be highest of Str / Wis / Dex + highest of tactical / assassinate / spell
SLA Damage should be highest of 200% melee power / spellpower. ( like Sacred fist ki spells )
The Trance should be a multiselector between Str / Dex / Wis
Cooldowns need to be reduced to be comparable to spellcasters casting a spell. ( fireball SLA is 6 seconds )

If the SLAs are going to be the primary ability of the dragon disciple class then they need use the primary stats of the melee class and trigger often enough to be a primary ability.

 

[LurkingVeteran]

You don’t like the name - it doesn’t change the fact that is what they decided to use. Get over it - it fits the theme and it was never going to be a sorc. Stop crying about it and move on.

And I think you don’t know how the game works. EK is not a “solid heroic TR choice” lol. I use that as an example bc that’s the closest thing we have in game to a hybrid like they are presenting here. EK is just bad. This is just bad. You know what would make EK and this good? Be better at killing things. Inquis would laugh at this like they laugh at EK currently. It’s because it’s weak. Maybe YOU don’t understand the game. Now reply and keep complaining about the name - even though it suits it just fine.

I did not complain about the name. I observed that they picked the name from a sorc tree in DnD3.5 (fact) and as designed it would ironically also work better as a sorc tree in DDO (I think most would agree with this). You are just randomly insulting posters who point out this problem. It's unclear what point you are trying to make even.

The second thing I said was in response to requests to beef up the SLAs and spell power, where if they buff it enough I think you can probably play it as a caster meta-burst build in heroics (decent) but it will still be terrible in end game. I.e. it should get a bigger redesign than that. Just scaling with melee power won't fix it either, but it will probably be better at least.

 

[Elves United]

I did not complain about the name. I observed that they picked the name from a sorc tree in DnD3.5 (fact) and as designed it would ironically also work better as a sorc tree in DDO (I think most would agree with this). You are just randomly insulting posters who point out this problem. It's unclear what point you are trying to make even.

The second thing I said was in response to requests to beef up the SLAs and spell power, where if they buff it enough I think you can probably play it as a caster meta-burst build in heroics (decent) but it will still be terrible in end game. I.e. it should get a bigger redesign than that. Just scaling with melee power won't fix it either, but it will probably be better at least.

I don't think we can expect a reinventing of the wheel at this point. The best we can hope for is adjusting what is already been presented to make it more viable. So here is how I would modify the enhancement tree:

Core 1: Draconic Studies:
Remove +3 Universal Spell Power per core ability. Add +3 MRR Cap per core ability.

Core 12: Fist of the Dragon
200% melee power replaces 100% spellpower

Core 20: Draconic Apothesis
25% less damge from fire, cold, electric, acid, poison. Immune sleep and paralysis. 5% spell crit damage.
Acolyte's breath and devastation do +50% damage. +2 Wisdom, +2 Dex +12 Melee power. +5 Caster Level with Lesser Draconic Burst.

Tier 1: Lesser Draconic Burst
increase by 200% melee power. DC 10 + highest of WIS/DEX/STR Mod + Highest of Tactical/assassinate

Tier 1: Power in Practice
Damage scales with 200% melee power

Tier 1: Draconic Devotion
+2 Melee Power

Tier 2: Acolyte's Breath
increase by 200% melee power. DC 10 + highest of WIS/DEX/STR Mod + Highest of Tactical/assassinate
Cooldown 12 seconds

Tier 2:Innate Arcana
Renamed Draconic Devotion 2. +2 Melee Power ( why is a class that does not use spell points getting them? )

Tier 3: Draconic Burst
increase by 200% melee power. DC 10 + highest of WIS/DEX/STR Mod + Highest of Tactical/assassinate

Tier 3: Clear Your Mind
Multi-selector between Str, Wis and Dex for trance

Tier 3: Draconic Devotion 2
Renamed Draconic Devotion 3. +2 Melee Power. +1 Universal Crit Chance. Breath attacks Shaken enemies.

Tier 4: Disciplinship II
+2 Imbue Dice +1 Tactical DC +1 Assassinate DC

Tier 4: Draconic Devotion 3
Renamed Draconic Devotion 4. +2 Melee Power +2% universal spell critical

Tier 5: Draconic Devatation.
increase by 200% melee power. DC 10 + highest of WIS/DEX/STR Mod + Highest of Tactical/assassinate
Cooldown: 12 seconds

Tier 5: Peace in Destruction
+1 Critical threat Range and +1 Critical multiplier

Tier 5: Perfect Disciple
+2 Tactical DC / +2 Assassinate DC

Tier 5: Shining Scales]
+30 MRR Cap. +25% competence maximum hp
( +30 MRR Cap should be added to Tier 5 of all monk enhancement trees and that of Sacred Fist as latest content has been brutal with non evadable spell damage )

 

[Havocthedemon1]

I did not complain about the name. I observed that they picked the name from a sorc tree in DnD3.5 (fact) and as designed it would ironically also work better as a sorc tree in DDO (I think most would agree with this). You are just randomly insulting posters who point out this problem. It's unclear what point you are trying to make even.

The second thing I said was in response to requests to beef up the SLAs and spell power, where if they buff it enough I think you can probably play it as a caster meta-burst build in heroics (decent) but it will still be terrible in end game. I.e. it should get a bigger redesign than that. Just scaling with melee power won't fix it either, but it will probably be better at least.

The point I’m trying to make it you’re just another poster complaining about the name. Give it up. Sure, there was a sorc class like this. There are also multiple versions of monk classes like this as well. It fits a monk better - even if you disagree with this is the name the devs went with. You’re a parrot.

And this def would not work better as a sorc the way they have presented it. Sorc already has an EK. I agree this isn’t very good but hopefully they make some changes.

 

[LurkingVeteran]

Okay, since you are so defensive about my minor remark about the name, please show us an official DnD class named "Dragon Disciple" that is for monk instead of sorcerer. To be exceedingly clear, note that "Way of the Ascendant Dragon" is not the same name as "Dragon Disciple" because the letters are different.

As for "Sorc already has EK", yeah that is why archetypes switch out one tree for another of different flavor. Relax, it was just an illustration of how the tree was better for casters. I don't think they are actually going to switch it to a Sorc archetype, don't get so hung up on it. I prefer a substantial rework myself.

 

[LurkingVeteran]

I have to say though that they are walking a fine line here because the tree has a lot of interesting things for monk (+MMR cap, can use any weapon, trance etc), so if they make it too OP they are basically taking the unique things with monks (abundant step and handwrap combat) out of the game to make them cloth dragonlords.

 

[Mokune]

I have to say though that they are walking a fine line here because the tree has a lot of interesting things for monk (+MMR cap, can use any weapon, trance etc), so if they make it too OP they are basically taking the unique things with monks (abundant step and handwrap combat) out of the game to make them cloth dragonlords.

Add a potato and ye got yerself a stew.

 

[Mokune]

I like the Magical Training auto-grant @ level 1. Opens Feydark for monk w/o using a Feat or Multi-Classing.

Excited to play this archetype.

 

[Havocthedemon1]

I like the Magical Training auto-grant @ level 1. Opens Feydark for monk w/o using a Feat or Multi-Classing.

Excited to play this archetype.

I’ll definitely be playing it and hoping it’s better than EK. The fun of it is at least worth playing through one life. EK used to be decent perhaps even good but they gave it the nerf bat some years ago for some god awful reason.

 

[Necrobotanist]

Henshin Mystic gives 10% elemental vulnerability with Elemental Words. For a build focusing on elemental damage from imbues, weapon that does elemental damage, something like that, Henshin might be better than this?

 

[woq]

Henshin Mystic gives 10% elemental vulnerability with Elemental Words. For a build focusing on elemental damage from imbues, weapon that does elemental damage, something like that, Henshin might be better than this?

I'm still hoping they'll make the acolytes breath do same as elemental words for any given element that the DD does - so DD won't lose the monk niche of elemental vuln application and that also gives a reason to cast the otherwise weak / useless SLAs beyond stacking arcane warrior

 

[MCPeePants]

I’ll definitely be playing it and hoping it’s better than EK. The fun of it is at least worth playing through one life. EK used to be decent perhaps even good but they gave it the nerf bat some years ago for some god awful reason.

I'm genuinely curious what you find attractive about it.

Surface level observations are that both this and Eldritch Knight are aimed at imbue builds, but EK has more imbue dice and more spell power. EK gets the full list of arcane spells, medium armor and shields, two Radiant Forcefields (an SLA and a circuit breaker), and a decent cleave.

This gets (what appear to be) some middling SLAs on restrictive timers, a trance, and a bigger competence bonus to hit points. It adds a bunch of centered weapons, but it's not as if being centered was keeping anyone away from those weapons anyway. The big payoffs in the tier 5 are: An SLA, 30mrr cap, +2 DCs, and a timer reduction of two SLAs. The 30mrr cap is nice but really only serves to partially mitigate the cloth penalty. And the timer reduction seems nice but still leaves you with a 4-second SLA and 2 17-second SLAs.

Obviously everything is conjecture but from the information we have, it looks to be worse than EK. I believe @axel15810 nailed it earlier, this looks like Dark Apostate 2.0. We already knew that the game was not currently friendly towards these hybrid builds before Dark Apostate 1.0.

 

[Havocthedemon1]

I'm genuinely curious what you find attractive about it.

Surface level observations are that both this and Eldritch Knight are aimed at imbue builds, but EK has more imbue dice and more spell power. EK gets the full list of arcane spells, medium armor and shields, two Radiant Forcefields (an SLA and a circuit breaker), and a decent cleave.

This gets (what appear to be) some middling SLAs on restrictive timers, a trance, and a bigger competence bonus to hit points. It adds a bunch of centered weapons, but it's not as if being centered was keeping anyone away from those weapons anyway. The big payoffs in the tier 5 are: An SLA, 30mrr cap, +2 DCs, and a timer reduction of two SLAs. The 30mrr cap is nice but really only serves to partially mitigate the cloth penalty. And the timer reduction seems nice but still leaves you with a 4-second SLA and 2 17-second SLAs.

Obviously everything is conjecture but from the information we have, it looks to be worse than EK. I believe @axel15810 nailed it earlier, this looks like Dark Apostate 2.0. We already knew that the game was not currently friendly towards these hybrid builds before Dark Apostate 1.0.

The idea of a Gish is always fun. I said before that it looks like just a worse EK which already sucks. They are so terrified of giving a hybrid the tools it needs to be good it ends up worse at everything and unplayable beyond heroic elite. Hoping this doesn’t end up the same but time will tell.

 

[Necrobotanist]

The more I look at this, the worse it looks.

(weak melee + weak caster) * impossible to gear / not enough feats = not really fun

To make this work, maybe they could make the bursts overwhelmingly strong and stun. Then it would be worth 25 seconds of weak melee to get a mighty burst. Would have to be stronger than level 9 spells to be worth it.

 

[Vox]

Curious to know what the past life feat will be

 

[Elves United]

The more I look at this, the worse it looks.

(weak melee + weak caster) * impossible to gear / not enough feats = not really fun

To make this work, maybe they could make the bursts overwhelmingly strong and stun. Then it would be worth 25 seconds of weak melee to get a mighty burst. Would have to be stronger than level 9 spells to be worth it.

They've already done this in the past with Sacred Fist and Ki spells that increase in power off of melee power.
There's no reason that the Dragon Disciple SLAs can't follow the same path.

spellpower -> melee power
spell DC -> Higher of Stun/Assasinate DC
lower the cooldowns to something reasonable
Put +1 critical threat range in Tier 5

( moderate melee + SLAs powered by melee bonuses ) * ( gear for melee and tactics ) / ( no spellcaster feats needed ) = could be fun

 

[I dont Like gimps]

They've already done this in the past with Sacred Fist and Ki spells that increase in power off of melee power.
There's no reason that the Dragon Disciple SLAs can't follow the same path.

spellpower -> melee power
spell DC -> Higher of Stun/Assasinate DC
lower the cooldowns to something reasonable
Put +1 critical threat range in Tier 5

( moderate melee + SLAs powered by melee bonuses ) * ( gear for melee and tactics ) / ( no spellcaster feats needed ) = could be fun

That sounds Like the sacred fist with extra steps xd

 

[Elves United]

That sounds Like the sacred fist with extra steps xd

A no armor, Ki generating melee character with the ability to use Ki to cast damaging spells.
Dragon Disciple and Sacred Fist are basically the same character concept with the following differences with their "spells":

---- The dragon disciple uses SLAs instead of spells which means no spell point cost for metamagics but soaks up a lot of AP.
---- The dragon disciple can switch between multiple damage types while Sacred fist is stuck with fire and force.
---- The dragon disciple spells have spell DC reflex saves while the Sacred Fist spells have no save
---- The dragon disciple spells have (x6/x4) longer cooldowns than Sacred Fist spells
---- The dragon disciple spells damage is increased by spellpower while sacred fist are increased by 200% or 300% melee power
---- The dragon disciple breath attacks used one after the other can generate a short, paralyzing, fear affect ( with a spell DC save )

Ultimately the challenge of gearing for spellpower/spell DC on a wisdom based melee character and sacrificing needed melee feats for spellcasting feats that do nothing but enhance the SLAs is just too much.

 

[I dont Like gimps]

A no armor, Ki generating melee character with the ability to use Ki to cast damaging spells.
Dragon Disciple and Sacred Fist are basically the same character concept with the following differences with their "spells":

---- The dragon disciple uses SLAs instead of spells which means no spell point cost for metamagics but soaks up a lot of AP.
---- The dragon disciple can switch between multiple damage types while Sacred fist is stuck with fire and force.
---- The dragon disciple spells have spell DC reflex saves while the Sacred Fist spells have no save
---- The dragon disciple spells have (x6/x4) longer cooldowns than Sacred Fist spells
---- The dragon disciple spells damage is increased by spellpower while sacred fist are increased by 200% or 300% melee power
---- The dragon disciple breath attacks used one after the other can generate a short, paralyzing, fear affect ( with a spell DC save )

Ultimately the challenge of gearing for spellpower/spell DC on a wisdom based melee character and sacrificing needed melee feats for spellcasting feats that do nothing but enhance the SLAs is just too much.

as I said a sacred fist with extra steps :ROFLMAO: