U72 Early Look: Dragon Disciple Monk Archetype

l_remmie

Well-known member
It seems this archetype does not have anything going for it.

People do run weak classes and builds for fun, but they do so because they offer something unique.

Dragon disciples has nothing. Its just a bad henshin monk or a bad sacred fist or a bad Eldritch knight. It is clunky and self defeating with gear and feats.

I don't see any use other then a 1or2 lvl splash for evasion and magical training.
 

HiatusMonk

New member
The decisions on this are just bizarre to me. Why does this spell focused monk not have access to Henshin? Ninja Spy and Shintao make 0 sense for it. You are basically forced into weapons, so 90% of the shintao tree is useless. The main source of damage is seemingly SLAs, so you wont be behind anything for sneak attacks which makes ninja spy kinda useless. Scaling the Disciple with melee power and giving them access to the Henshin line would have been much better. I think you guys are too worried about making henshin obsolete when it kind of already is. I'm not sure how we are supposed to gear this archetype effectively with the way you are doing things. The Henshin strikes would be perfect for setting up big burst windows even without adjusting Disciple to melee power. It just isn't logical how you've done things and it feels bad. Im excited for new monk stuff, and im going to play it... but it is going to be an absolute nightmare trying to make it work because it feels like im fighting against the devs to do so. Seriously though... the one obvious archetype that goes hand in hand with this new one... and you guys dont give us access to it? The one archetype that has bonuses to spellcasting implements.... and you go "nah, ninja spy"! Please rethink this.... give us something to work with here.
 

ZombiePossum

Active member
I tend to agree with all of the respondents so far that this tree seems to be a bit week. I know that the intent is to bring "balance" to the game by allowing all types of builds to range from pure melee/ranged to pure casters with all types of hybrids in between, but giving magic use to what should be a melee-only support class, doesn't make sense. Anyway, to this end, here's an idea of a build that might work to blend magic with melee and make a somewhat survivable character at end game.

Dragonborn, 12 Dragon Disciple, 8 Dragon Lord, mix Grandmaster of Flowers with Draconic Incarnation. This would give you plenty of feat slots to get the necessary melee and caster feats. Your "magic" is taking all 3 dragon breath weapons:

Acolyte's Breath—T2 Dragon Disciple, WIS based, costs 10 ki
Dragon Breath—T2 Dragonborn, CHA based, no activation costs
Dragon Breath—T2 Draconic Incarnation epic strike, INT/WIS/CHA based, costs 25 spell points

Here's your "magic" to support your melee. The good thing about the epic strike is it has a 12 second cooldown instead of 25 for the other 2. They are close-in support attacks to support melee. There's no explicit statement that says they all share the same cooldown, but, if not, open with the epic strike and supplement with the other 2 while the epic strike is on cooldown.

As far as gear is concerned, there's plenty at end game that could support such a hybrid character. Most of the gear has multiple augment slots, and the MD gear gives a multitude of "set" options with solar and lunar augments. I would probably build this as having about 75% melee enhancements and 25% "magic" enhancements. I solo a lot and don't do raids or reaper content very much. For me, this should be fine.

I just wish that the DDO had dragon claw and bite attacks like in PnP!
 

Elves United

Well-known member
The decisions on this are just bizarre to me. Why does this spell focused monk not have access to Henshin? Ninja Spy and Shintao make 0 sense for it. You are basically forced into weapons, so 90% of the shintao tree is useless. The main source of damage is seemingly SLAs, so you wont be behind anything for sneak attacks which makes ninja spy kinda useless. Scaling the Disciple with melee power and giving them access to the Henshin line would have been much better. I think you guys are too worried about making henshin obsolete when it kind of already is. I'm not sure how we are supposed to gear this archetype effectively with the way you are doing things. The Henshin strikes would be perfect for setting up big burst windows even without adjusting Disciple to melee power. It just isn't logical how you've done things and it feels bad. Im excited for new monk stuff, and im going to play it... but it is going to be an absolute nightmare trying to make it work because it feels like im fighting against the devs to do so. Seriously though... the one obvious archetype that goes hand in hand with this new one... and you guys dont give us access to it? The one archetype that has bonuses to spellcasting implements.... and you go "nah, ninja spy"! Please rethink this.... give us something to work with here.
A few things .......

The shintao tree ( and the other ones ) based on the monk thread is being modified from handwraps to any weapon that can be used while centered.

Even if the were to take away the punishing cooldowns reliance on spellpower and spell DC to use effectively .... it still requires melee generated KI costs to use and will never be the main source of damage.
 

HiatusMonk

New member
A few things .......

The shintao tree ( and the other ones ) based on the monk thread is being modified from handwraps to any weapon that can be used while centered.

Even if the were to take away the punishing cooldowns reliance on spellpower and spell DC to use effectively .... it still requires melee generated KI costs to use and will never be the main source of damage.
Maybe in early heroics. By 15+ passive key regeneration is more than enough. My henshin is typically only trying to hit voids/quivering outside of combos for buffs.
 

MCPeePants

Well-known member
The idea of a Gish is always fun. I said before that it looks like just a worse EK which already sucks. They are so terrified of giving a hybrid the tools it needs to be good it ends up worse at everything and unplayable beyond heroic elite. Hoping this doesn’t end up the same but time will tell.
Thanks for this. I re-read my post and think it might have come off harsh which wasn't my intent at all.

I also agree with everything you said here about enjoying hybrids, I think the difference with this may be that my lens is more pessimistic.
 

Havocthedemon1

Well-known member
Its February 7th, 1 month from initial post. Are we getting a second preview? Or can we expect it to drop as is?
The rewards usually drop around the 23rd or something right? So there’s basically 10 actual business days until that time. They would need to drop the preview Monday for like 2 days and use the rest of the time to make any adjustments and fix bugs they didn’t catch.
 

Knowbody important

Well-known member
it looks so bad they should just start over and forget about it lol
This is my concern. I suspect that this archetype is loosely based upon 5e's Way of the Ascendant Dragon (first ability: Dragon Disciple) and for that reason alone it was doomed to failure. Due to the fact that more of a stats/gear-lite experience that favors generalists and DDO is an action oriented stats/gear-HEAVY experience that favors specialists. Therefore without Heavy retooling it was doomed to failure from the start.
 

Bjond

Well-known member
Skills: Spellcraft is a Dragon Disciple class skill. In exchange, they do not gain Spot as a class skill.
Spot is an odd choice as it's a Wisdom skill, thematically similar to core-6's true-sight, and thematically dragonesque.

I'd pick hide, silent, or diplomacy for a sacrifice. Dragon Disciples are essentially a power-trip / intimidation type of character; ie. smack you around rather than talk it out.
Dragon Disciple Enhancement Tree
The main focus of the Dragon Disciple tree is Draconic elements and Elemental damage. Unlike Henshin Mystic, it has a stronger focus on AOE spells and uses Spell
Henshin is an obvious choice, but on a power-scale hybrid DPS can't compete with non-hybrid DPS by a very large factor. Suggest adding features that tie into Arcane Warrior feat and perhaps even granting Arcane Warrior at L1 to help it thrive as a hybrid.
Core 1: Draconic Studies: While you are centered, you can use your Wisdom modifier to hit. You are centered with one-handed Clubs and Sceptres. Each core ability in this tree grants you +3 Melee Power, +3 Universal Spell Power, and +3 MRR.
Suggest adding +3 MRR cap as well or the 3 MRR will simply be lost to the cap.
Core 20: Draconic Apotheosis: Active: For 20 seconds, you take 50% less damage from Fire, Cold, Electric, Acid, and Poison, gain +2 to all Ability Scores, gain immunity to Sleep and Paralysis, +1 Critical Threat Range with all weapons, +5% Spell Critical Damage, and Acolyte's Breath and Devastation both deal double damage. Cost: 100 Ki. 2 minute cooldown. Passive: +2 Wisdom, +2 Dexterity, +12 Melee Power, and +12 Universal Spell Power. +5 Maximum Caster Level with Lesser Draconic Burst.
IMHO, the core should be passive to align itself with 3.5e Draconic Transformation. Also, from a game play perspective, short duration active absorb is pointless. Assuming passive, I'd reduce the 50 to 15~25% stacking with gear or 35% if not stacking with gear.

It should also reduce the CD on Flight of Kings to 3~6s to be similar to 3.5e's "you sprout wings" transformation.

Tier 2:​

  • Action Boost: Doublestrike

This is the same as giving nothing at all due to melee's cap on doublestrike. IMHO, remove the DS cap and permit it to grow infinitely as a general change helps a lot of struggling builds compete with top builds. That requires testing to be sure an odd build doesn't become silly-OP.

As a more general and thematic action boost, make a new one that gives 20% spellpower and 20% melee power at the same time. Not +20, but 20%. The reason is that the flat additive increases can't compete with haste-boost's multiplicative 30%. At cap, the classic +30 power is ~5% gain to dps and only for power-scaled things. Haste boost is +30% on everything.

I'd actually use a 20%/20% action boost on a DD. Any flat boost and I'd go elsewhere to pickup haste boost.
Tier 3:
  • Way of the Dragon: Multiselector:
    • Light Path: Channel the Enlightened Dragon: Activate: You and nearby allies become immune to daze, stun, and sleep for 60 seconds. (90 second cooldown, costs 10 ki)
    • Dark Path: Channel the Raging Dragon: Activate: Nearby allies gain a +2 untyped bonus to attack, saves, and skills for 60 seconds. (90 second cooldown, costs 10 ki)
Light path has zero effect in practice. DDO doesn't give tells that permit a nicely timed application of defensives like that. Dark path is so pathetically small, the only reason for using it is on a trapper to hit a threshold (and DD's don't trap).

Suggest making them passive auras if you're going to leave them as-is, though I'd change stun to KB immunity and saves+skills to damage.

Tier 4:​

  • Tranquility in Strife:Pick a weapon set to become Centered with.
    • Dragon's Tooth: You are now Centered with Light and Heavy Pick
    • Dragon's Tail: You are now Centered with Light Hammer and Warhammer
    • Dragon's Claw: You are now Centered with Handaxe, Battle Axe, and Sickle.
    • Dragon's Divinity:You are now Centered with any Melee Weapon that is a Favored Weapon for you.
This is a very cool idea and one that might be nicer down in T1 so the player can thematically align themselves with a particular play style right away (weapons and feats need to be aligned from the start, T4 puts a big gap of using non-goal weapons on the play).

Consider adding high-intimidation 2H weapons like Maul and G.Axe. Original 3.5e DDs are on a personal power-trip after all. Not a fan of 2H myself, but they would make thematic sense and others like them a lot.
  • Discipleship II: +2 Imbue Die and +3 to Breath Weapon DCs.
A TWF with high imbue is literally unplayable due to the --threat% bug; it just strips agro, flips bosses, and kills raids and parties. Fix negative threat for imbues and every single imbue build becomes playable.



Where's Quick-Draw? It's mandatory for mixing melee with spells. Also, I'd add a passive Quicken meta somewhere. The alternative is to rework animations in general so casting and melee can mesh smoothly together. The build looks good thematically, but my intuition says it's so overburdened with feat and gear requirements as to never become successful as a hybrid; it will have to choose one or the other.

As an arcane warrior tie-in, changing the imbues to count as spells would be a nice thematic touch. Similarly changing the spells to also count as melee strikes would permit DD's to lean either toward melee or spells and still leverage hybrid bonuses from Arcane Warrior.
 

ZombiePossum

Active member
Bjond is correct about doublestrike. Doublestrike is a chance between 0 and 1 of hitting a monster a second time on the same attack turn. This means that once a character's DS is 1, in other words 100%, the character is always hitting every monster 2 times for every attach turn. Going above 1 provides no additional benefit. Unlike doubleshot and strikethrough, exceeding 1 gives a chance to fire an additional arrow or hit an additional monster for every attack turn. Removing the cap to doublestrike creates the same chance to hit a monster a third time when DS is above 1. Monks, for sure, should be able to do this. I think that the multitude of Chinese kung fu movies should prove that.
 

Bjond

Well-known member
Monks, for sure, should be able to do this. I think that the multitude of Chinese kung fu movies should prove that.
Now if we're going for some real Dragon-Fu, there should be an attack that draws a wire from the DD to the target then the DD slowly flies to the target on the wire with an extended roaring leap, flips 3~4 times, and strikes with hands & feet 8~9 times.

After all that, he lands lightly, crosses his arms, and nods smugly, "Your kung-fu? Not so good."
 

Havocthedemon1

Well-known member
After looking through the tree - my biggest suggestion is if you want this to work as a hybrid caster/melee you need to add in actual benefits/synergy from doing both casting and melee (so for example every time you cast a spell you get X melee benefit and vice versa), and possibly some passive DPS casting options to make the opportunity cost of doing whichever of the two you are worse at not destroy the hybrid concept. Otherwise it's not going to make sense build-wise on a practical level to play this as a hybrid - just as is the problem with Dark Apostate currently. Add more synergy from doing both.
This
 

Knowbody important

Well-known member
Bjond is correct about doublestrike. Doublestrike is a chance between 0 and 1 of hitting a monster a second time on the same attack turn. This means that once a character's DS is 1, in other words 100%, the character is always hitting every monster 2 times for every attach turn. Going above 1 provides no additional benefit. Unlike doubleshot and strikethrough, exceeding 1 gives a chance to fire an additional arrow or hit an additional monster for every attack turn. Removing the cap to doublestrike creates the same chance to hit a monster a third time when DS is above 1. Monks, for sure, should be able to do this. I think that the multitude of Chinese kung fu movies should prove that.
So this is not entirely true. Assuming your dual wielding at most you double strike at 65% of your main hand, meaning that to doublestrike 100% with your off hand you need 165% Doublestrike. Monks and Tempest Rangers are the only ones this really impacts.
 

Rusty_helmet

Teh_troll’s Fluffer
Just nitpicking

Core 6: Way of the Mighty Dragon II: Your Way of the Mighty Dragon now includes +2% Doublestrike. At Dragon Disciple levels 9 and 15 this bonus increases by +1. You gain True Seeing.

+1 should be +1%. +1 would be +100% :)
We call that DDO math. There's girl math and then there's DDO math. Don't ever confuse either of them with Excel math.
 

Justfungus

Well-known member
I don't see the point of magic training since none of the archetype's SLA's use mana. For that point, I don't see a reason for ANY of the caster boosts or skills ... the classes attacks don't use them. Not a very well thought out Archetype.
 
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