U72 Early Look: Dragon Disciple Monk Archetype

[fitzabir]

Im not sure what i expected, but if that's a caster monk i thought it would be more like the Avatar benders, using cool Tai-Chi and Kong-fu moves to cast their spells and not actually using weapons in melee.

 

[Vox]

Dragon Lords are restricted in their elements. Dragon Disciples have all five. If you're up against an enemy immune to your primary element, you have four more onhand, ideally with one of those other four having some investment in power from gear, etc.

This reads as this thread is what dragon disciple will be, rather than a proposal and seeking player feedback to then adjust.

Dragonlord also gets tactics, aoe helpless (on a short cooldown), more imbue dice, unique helpless damage buffs, and much more.

Dragon disciple needs far more development & tuning time. Why does everyone here know that except you?

 

[Anurakh]

Dragon Lords are restricted in their elements. Dragon Disciples have all five. If you're up against an enemy immune to your primary element, you have four more onhand, ideally with one of those other four having some investment in power from gear, etc.

This would work if legendary levels didn't push for such brutal superspecialization. If a wizard can't equip for all the spells in his spellbook, how can a gish, who also has to get melee equipment, do it?

Steelstar, I've been asking you for years. Please, please, please, change your design model so that it doesn't just favor specialization. There are character concepts that require investment in many things. Gish are one of those concepts. Wizards and clerics are others. And the former are basically unviable at legendary levels, and the latter have many handicaps.

There are many things that push for superspecialization, but equipment is the main culprit. Can't you go back to designing for concepts instead of throwing random items out there, like you did in another era? Do something with sentient weapons so they're not so exclusive? (I get like 14 or 15 DC on a caster with sentient weapons... do you really think a gish can get a decent DC on cap? Or that a gish can get decent damage if he gives up damage filigrees for DC?) And can't you consolidate similar stats into items and re-group separate stats like sheltering? And you realize that in your new set model with sun/moon augments there is no space for what a gish needs? (If a pure weapon user or a pure caster doesn't have enough slots for everything they need, even less a gish!)

I'm going crazy trying to integrate into a set for caster spell mastery, insightful spell mastery, quality spell mastery, sacred dc, profane dc, and various spellpowers and lores (and to these values, you add a good amount of spell DC augments, like the gianthold augments for each school, which eat up a lot of your augment slots). If it's already a herculean task to achieve this for a pure caster, how are you going to add melee stats to this?

My advice: either focus this more on the melee part, or change the requirement for a superspecialization on cap. Players of other gish (like artificers or melee bards or EKs and such) would appreciate being able to use spells (that aren't buffs) at legendary levels. Generalist caster players like wizards could finally stop feeling like the ugly ducklings of casters.

 

[kmoustakas]

Hello, everyone!

Here's your first look at the upcoming Dragon Disciple (Monk) Archetype! The core conceit of Dragon Disciple is A Monk who has studied the Way of the Dragon, opening them up to powerful magic.

• To fully understand this design, take a look at the accompanying Monk Revamp Thread (see thread here!). The changes there are also present here (with the exception of Henshin Mystic).
• Otherwise, if something isn't mentioned, assume it is the same as the Monk class.

Changes from the Base Monk Class:

• Your Enhancement Trees are Dragon Disciple, the revamped Shintao, and the revamped Ninja Spy.
• Magical Training is granted at level 1.
• Abundant Step (lv. 12) is replaced with a Feat version of Flight of Kings: Memories of flight lie within you. You are able to leap through the air to bring the fight to your enemies or traverse chasms that make normal adventure balk. Cooldown: 15 seconds. When you use Flight of Kings, you have a +20% Action Boost bonus to movement speed for 6 seconds.
  • (This is likely, to some degree, not as strong as the base Monk version. This is intended.)
• Class Bonus Feats:
  • Instead of the normal Martial Arts list, Dragon Disciples choose from the Dragon Arts list. BOLD are feats that are not on the Monk's Martial Arts list.
    • Deflect Arrows
    • Diehard
    • Dodge
    • Lightning Reflexes
    • Mobility
    • Power Attack
    • Precision
    • Single Weapon Fighting
    • Spring Attack
    • Stunning Fist
    • Swords to Plowshares
    • Toughness
    • Two Handed Fighting
    • Two Weapon Fighting
    • Weapon Finesse
    • Whirling Steel Strike
    • Spell Focus: Evocation
    • Spell Focus: Conjuration
    • Spell Focus: Transmutation
    • Empower Spell
    • Maximize Spell
    • Quicken Spell
  • (Feats not on the Dragon Arts list that are on the Monk's list are: Combat Expertise, Discipline, Great Fortitude, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Iron Will, Resilience, Shuriken Expertise, Ten Thousand Stars, and Zen Archery. Since Dragon Disciples are Monks, you should be able to pick these up with regular feat slots, if you're so inclined.)

Spellbook: Dragon Disciple does not have an innate spellbook, leaning on their SLAs.

Skills: Spellcraft is a Dragon Disciple class skill. In exchange, they do not gain Spot as a class skill.

Dragon Disciple Enhancement Tree
The main focus of the Dragon Disciple tree is Draconic elements and Elemental damage. Unlike Henshin Mystic, it has a stronger focus on AOE spells and uses Spell Power for scaling. With the Ninja Spy and Shintao trees as support, this should allow you to function as a hybrid weapon/spellcaster build, and open up some multiclass avenues to help support it.

• Why have this tree replace Henshin Mystic instead of Shintao or Ninja Spy?
  • The revamped Henshin Mystic fills a similar role on core Monk, but has less powerful spells and primarily relies on your weapon attacks. It would be relatively redundant to have both. That said, if they aren't different enough to make Dragon Disciple feel like its own thing, that's something we can look at.

Core 1: Draconic Studies: While you are centered, you can use your Wisdom modifier to hit. You are centered with one-handed Clubs and Sceptres. Each core ability in this tree grants you +3 Melee Power, +3 Universal Spell Power, and +3 MRR.

Core 3: Way of the Mighty Dragon I: Like a Dragon, your power is undeniable. You gain +2 to your Spellcraft skill and +2 to Attack. At Dragon Disciple levels 9 and 15 these bonuses increase by +1. While you are Centered, you can use your Wisdom modifier to damage.

Core 6: Way of the Mighty Dragon II: Your Way of the Mighty Dragon now includes +2% Doublestrike. At Dragon Disciple levels 9 and 15 this bonus increases by +1. You gain True Seeing.

Core 12: Fist of the Dragon: Centered Melee Attack: Channel Draconic strength and the power of your weapons into your fist, hitting a single target+50% Damage. If you have a Power in Practice Imbue enabled, you deal 1d4 damage per Character Level of that imbue's element that scales with 100% Spell Power. (Uses Rune Arm Slam animation). Cooldown: 12 seconds.

Core 18: Way of the Mighty Dragon III: Your Way of the Mighty Dragon now includes +3 Critical Confirmation and Critical Damage and +3 Imbue Dice. +5 Maximum Caster Level with Lesser Draconic Burst.

Core 20: Draconic Apotheosis: Active: For 20 seconds, you take 50% less damage from Fire, Cold, Electric, Acid, and Poison, gain +2 to all Ability Scores, gain immunity to Sleep and Paralysis, +1 Critical Threat Range with all weapons, +5% Spell Critical Damage, and Acolyte's Breath and Devastation both deal double damage. Cost: 100 Ki. 2 minute cooldown. Passive: +2 Wisdom, +2 Dexterity, +12 Melee Power, and +12 Universal Spell Power. +5 Maximum Caster Level with Lesser Draconic Burst.

Tier 1:​

• Lesser Draconic Burst: You gain five SLAs, each in one of the Draconic elements (Fire, Cold, Electric, Acid, and Poison), which all share a single cooldown. You channel ki to bring forth your Dragon's element in a small burst, hitting all enemies very close to you. Deals 1d6+1 [element] damage per caster level (max 5d6+5 at caster level 5). A successful reflex save reduces damage by half, DC 10 + WIS mod + Evocation bonuses (Acid uses Conjuration) + Breath Weapon bonuses. 4 second cooldown, costs 5 ki, must be Centered to use.
  • This is more or less a clone of Alchemist's Vial Smash.
• Power in Practice: You gain five Imbue Toggles, each in one of the Draconic elements, which all share a single cooldown. Imbue Toggle: While you are Centered, your Draconic Studies embolden your weapon strikes, which deal 1d6 [fire, cold, electric, acid, or poison] damage on each hit. This damage scales with 100% of the relevant Spell Power.
• Study of Scales: +1/2/3 Fortitude Saving Throws.
• Draconic Devotion I: While Centered,+8 Universal Spell Power.
• Skills: +1/2/3 Spellcraft, Heal, and Listen. Rank 3: +3 MRR.

Tier 2:​

• Acolyte's Breath: You gain five SLAs, each in one of the Draconic elements, which all share a single cooldown. Active Breath Attack SLA: Cone that deals 1d6 + 3 [fire, cold, electric, acid, or poison] damage per caster level (reflex save for half). Counts as Evocation spell, except Acid is Conjuration; gets full Metamagic feats, No SR, DC 10 + WIS mod + Evocation bonuses (Acid uses Conjuration) + Breath Weapon bonuses. Scales with 100% of spell power. Activation Cost: 10 ki, must be Centered. Cooldown: 25 seconds
• Power Begets Power: Your melee strikes with weapons generate +2 Ki.
• Discipleship I: +1 Imbue Dice.
• Innate Arcana: Your studies have increased your maximium Spell Points by 30/60/90.
• Action Boost: Doublestrike

Tier 3:​

• Draconic Burst: You gain five SLAs, each in one of the Draconic elements, which all share a single cooldown. You channel ki to bring forth your Dragon's element in a small burst, hitting all enemies close to you. Deals 1d6+2 [element] damage per caster level (max 10d6+10 at caster level 20). A successful reflex save reduces damage by half, DC 10 + WIS mod + Evocation bonuses (Acid uses Conjuration) + Breath Weapon bonuses. 4 second cooldown, costs 5 ki, must be Centered to use.
  • This is a clone of Alchemist's Vial Smash, but more damage.
• Way of the Dragon: Multiselector:
  • Light Path: Channel the Enlightened Dragon: Activate: You and nearby allies become immune to daze, stun, and sleep for 60 seconds. (90 second cooldown, costs 10 ki)
  • Dark Path: Channel the Raging Dragon: Activate: Nearby allies gain a +2 untyped bonus to attack, saves, and skills for 60 seconds. (90 second cooldown, costs 10 ki)
• Clear Your Mind: Battle Trance: While Centered, you gain an Insight bonus to Attack, Damage and the DC of Tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Wisdom modifier for 30/60/120 seconds. Cooldown: 20 seconds. Activation Cost: 30 Ki. The effects of this Trance are dispelled if you are no longer Centered. Antirequisite: This ability can not be trained if you have any other Battle Trance ability (e.g. Know the Angles).
• Draconic Devotion II: While Centered, +8 Universal Spell Power and +1% Universal Spell Critical Chance. Your Breath Attacks apply Shaken to affected enemies for 6 seconds.
• Ability Score: +1 Str / Dex / Con / Int / Wis / Cha

Tier 4:​

• Secret Power: Your Lesser Draconic Bursts now apply 2 stacks of Vulnerability to affected targets. Your Draconic Bursts now apply a stack of Weakened Will, Feeble Fortitude, and Reduced Reflexes to affected targets.
• Tranquility in Strife:Pick a weapon set to become Centered with.
  • Dragon's Tooth: You are now Centered with Light and Heavy Pick
  • Dragon's Tail: You are now Centered with Light Hammer and Warhammer
  • Dragon's Claw: You are now Centered with Handaxe, Battle Axe, and Sickle.
  • Dragon's Divinity:You are now Centered with any Melee Weapon that is a Favored Weapon for you.
    • (Note: Still working on the tech for this one. May be cut if it doesn't pan out.)
• Discipleship II: +2 Imbue Die and +3 to Breath Weapon DCs.
• Draconic Devotion III: While Centered, +8 Universal Spell Power and +2% Universal Spell Critical Chance.
• Ability Score: +1 Str / Dex / Con / Int / Wis / Cha

Tier 5:​

• Draconic Devastation: You gain five SLAs, each in one of the Draconic elements, which all share a single cooldown. Active Breath Attack SLA: Cone that deals 1d6+6 [element] damage per caster level (reflex save for half). Affected enemies who are Shaken become Afraid and have their movement speed reduced by 90% for 6 seconds. Counts as Evocation spell except Acid is Conjuration; gets full Metamagic feats, No SR, DC 10 + WIS mod + Evocation bonuses (Acid uses Conjuration) + Breath Weapon bonuses. Scales with 100% of spell power. Activation Cost: 15 ki, must be Centered. Cooldown: 25 seconds.
• Peace in Destruction: While Centered, you gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier. Passive: You gain a +25% Competence bonus to maximum hit points.
• Perfect Disciple: +2 Breath Weapon DCs and +2 Evocation DCs.
• Shining Scales: You gain +30 MRR cap.
• Perfect Breathing: +4% Universal Spell Critical Chance. Your Acolyte's Breath and Devastation have their cooldown reduced by 33%.

Just so you know, Deekin hates you

 

[Rosze]

please change T5:
Perfect Disciple: +2 Breath Weapon DCs and +2 Evocation DCs. to include +2 Conjuration DCs so acid builds won't be weaker by default

Could they just make acid evocation too? I know there’s some dnd reasons but it would just simplify it a lot

 

[Havocthedemon1]

Dragon Lords are restricted in their elements. Dragon Disciples have all five. If you're up against an enemy immune to your primary element, you have four more onhand, ideally with one of those other four having some investment in power from gear, etc.

You’re not going to stop mid combat and switch elements depending on what devil comes at you - I don’t know what game you are playing. You aren’t going to be able to spec for every spell power either - in DDO people pick an element on a build and that’s what they go with. Seriously - what game are you playing dude

 

[droid327]

This would work if legendary levels didn't push for such brutal superspecialization. If a wizard can't equip for all the spells in his spellbook, how can a gish, who also has to get melee equipment, do it?

Steelstar, I've been asking you for years. Please, please, please, change your design model so that it doesn't just favor specialization. There are character concepts that require investment in many things. Gish are one of those concepts. Wizards and clerics are others. And the former are basically unviable at legendary levels, and the latter have many handicaps.

Things like this are why so many players say the devs dont play their own game...or at least dont play it like 99% of their playerbase does

I dont think we're ever going to see hybrid builds become viable until there's specific hybrid gear created that offers full power for martial combat and full power for casting. And that's never going to happen.

The only other thing that can happen is they reduce difficulty, so that a build that's 80% of a pure martial and 80% of a pure caster is still good enough. But that means that a 100% pure caster or martial will be overpowered for the content, so that's not going to happen either.

Right now there's no inherent benefit to either caster or martial gameplay (but the devs still design as though there is). They're both just a way to do damage numbers. Mob damage-specific resists are dwarfed by DPS output, and immunity breakers are commonplace now. Both martial and caster are fully capable of doing CC. Sustain has not been an issue for casters for a while. The game has been homogenized so that mobs are just sacks of HP that dont really care in practice how you hurt them. So 80% martial 80% caster is just being 80% as strong as a specialist.

Incidentally, that's also exactly why full-power hybrid items should be a thing - because there's no inherent benefit to being able to do both martial and caster gameplay. Its all the same now, its all just flavor.

 

[DBZ]

Infinite DPS and better everything are pretty good benefits without penalties

 

[Phoenicis]

Infinite DPS and better everything are pretty good benefits without penalties

don't feed the troll.
Don't feed the troll...
DON'T feed the troll...

To heck with it, where in blazes are you seeing infinite DPS in this mess? And Better everything? Everything looks worse from where I'm sitting.

 

[DBZ]

He said melees and ranged have no benefits over caster play

 

[Phoenicis]

He said melees and ranged have no benefits over caster play

Ah, you weren't talking about the specific subject of this thread. Okay.

 

[DBZ]

No foot in this one its useless cuz its spell power scaling

Ki bolt worked cuz it was 200 percent melee power scaling

 

[Shall]

Didn't the original draconic incarnation destiny's dragon wings ability do elemental damage to any enemy you passed through? Maybe that could be recycled here to make up for the dragon disciple abundant step equivalent being a little weaker than base abundant step and add another damage ability.

 

[Phaedra]

Didn't the original draconic incarnation destiny's dragon wings ability do elemental damage to any enemy you passed through? Maybe that could be recycled here to make up for the dragon disciple abundant step equivalent being a little weaker than base abundant step and add another damage ability.

Add "Deal your Draconic Burst damage at (start point/endpoint/both)

 

[Mechgraber]

Well, that looks a bit trash. Walmart dragonlord, I guess, they giveth and taketh away.

Anyway, what's the past life? At least make that good if we have to suffer through this.

BTW no one is going to run this at endgame, fitting spellpower and DCs and crits damage and crit % on top of defensive stats and offensive melee stats is...well it's close to impossible, really.

Do devs try to equip and play the builds before they release them, or do they just cobble together whatever tree they want like a flesh golem.

 

[Kimbere]

Dragon Lords are restricted in their elements. Dragon Disciples have all five. If you're up against an enemy immune to your primary element, you have four more onhand, ideally with one of those other four having some investment in power from gear, etc.

I'm not sure that's as much of a restriction as you think it is.

I'll take one element that you can specialize in with a 100% immunity bypass and frequent helpless damage bonuses when needed over one full power element with four mediocre elements.


Also, I'll reserve judgement for when it actually goes live but at a glance, this Dragon Disciple looks like a mediocre caster combined with mediocre melee and topped off with the bitter cherry of requiring Ki to use the SLAs which are the primary trait of the archetype.

Not sure if you've recently leveled a melee monk in heroics, but until mid to upper heroics, even full melee monks don't generate enough Ki to frequently use their Ki abilities. Current monks are effectively locked into Fire stance until mid heroics if they want to use Ki abilities, and even then you have to be choosy about which ones you cycle through.

So unless you've added a large amount of passive Ki regen that I missed in the notes, this thing will be stupidly Ki starved in lower heroics, which means it will primarily be a watered down melee monk until level 10+.

Ki generation is usually not a problem by the time you get to epic levels, but that's also on a monk that's meleeing constantly. I gather the point of the Dragon Disciple is that it is intended for the SLAs to be used as much as, if not more than melee. With effort, it probably can generate enough Ki to consistently use the SLAs once it hits epics, however, that is, ironically, right about the time the power of spells and SLAs start falling behind due to a lack of decent die scaling in Epics.

What that means (if I'm not wrong) is that this frakenstein will probably have about 5 levels where it's fun/good (15-20ish). It will struggle on the front end to generate enough Ki to consistently use the SLAs that make it unique and then it will struggle on the back end due to mediocre melee DPS combined with mediocre SLA DPS.

There's a risk here that the best way to run a Dragon Disciple for the PLs is to not run it like a Dragon Disciple and just go with a full melee DPS build instead.

 

[Shall]

Theres also minimal support in this tree for going into epics / later. No spell power, no mcls for the better spells. Might be better if there was an epic feat boosting the mcl of these spells, but I am not sure if the concept itself can be rescued. Itll work for heroics but saying something is *fine* for heroics isnt exactly a ringing endorsement

Im also more than a little disappointed that nearly every archetype has felt the need to take the base class and turn it into more of a caster. Bard lost a melee tree and got a caster tree. Druid lost a melee tree and got a caster tree. Sorc lost a melee tree and got a caster tree. Cleric lost a healing! tree and got a mostly nuking tree. Paladin lost two melee trees and got a healing tree and ki spells. Warlock lost a melee tree and front loaded its nuking damage. Fighter lost a melee tree and got a (sorta) spell to cast. Ranger lost a ranged tree and got a melee tree.

I really hope that the next couple archetypes are designed with this in mind
Was hoping that we would get reflavored stances to be dragon themed, and get things more along the lines of dragon themed empowered melee attacks and similar

I had the same thought when they first announced it would be a monk archtype, stances and imbues based on gem dragons to syngergize with the existing psionic theme of monks in eberron culminating with a half dragon form instead of perfect self based on Keith Baker's writings of possible ways to integrate gem dragons and Sardior into eberron's backstory.

Incidentally, I posted this in the other monk thread, but I think they should have gone ahead and added a spellbook for both versions of monk and added the finishers to it as innate attacks (think the druid animal form spells). Then once they're formally spells, they could have added epic support for these and henshin's ki spells like all other spells get, ie mcl and cl bonus per epic level and have the existing improved martial arts epic feat also act as a master of monk spells feat like the master of ... spellcasting feats.

 

[SpardaX]

Tier 2
[*]Power Begets Power: Your melee strikes with weapons generate +2 Ki.

Since this loses Henshin, are you able to roll

"Way of the Elegant Crane: Like a crane, you strike with precision and elegance. You gain +1 to your Diplomacy skill, and generate 1 additional Ki on critical hits. Your training has left you more fragile than normal, however, and have a -1 penalty to Fortitude saves. At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, these bonuses and penalties increase by 1."

Into this ability as well. This archtype will need a lot of Ki, and I'm not sure the +2 per hit is going to be sufficient.

 

[Phaedra]

Innate Arcana: Your studies have increased your maximium Spell Points by 30/60/90.

*** is this doing? Nothing in this tree is powered by Spell Points.

 

[BananaHat]

Are you aware that the Flight of Kings for the Dragon Lord doesn't always apply the action boost bonus to movement speed afterwards? It seems to be a random chance. Please fix that and bring over a version that does it all the time as the description implies.