U72 Early Look: Monk Revamp

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SteelStar

Senior Systems Designer
Hello, everyone!

We have decided that the time has come to take a look at the Monk class as a whole and make some adjustments while we debut the upcoming Dragon Disciple Monk Archetype (see thread here!)

Below is an early plan and subject to change:

Monk Combos and Finishing Moves

The Combo and Finishing Move system in the Monk class has had issues for a long time. Some of the issues we identified were:
  • The combo builders themselves are not especially strong.
  • Combo-building is clunky due to cooldowns.
  • The combo system is easily interrupted by common actions, resetting your combo.
As we looked into adjusting this system we encountered the following:
  • Strengthening combo builders makes the Monk disproportionately powerful across all level ranges, especially as there is no cost (feat slots, action points) in gaining them - Monks get these and their trees and their bonus feats.
  • The cooldowns on the builders are structurally important to make sure the system functions as intended, and it is nearly impossible to reduce that cooldown without creating additional issues.
  • On our code side, the combo system relies on an opt-out designation for actions to break your combo, meaning that to make the combo system more flexible would require individually tagging hundreds-to-thousands of individual actions as "this doesn't break a combo", or rebuilding the combo system from scratch.
We have instead decided to explore a more comprehensive rebalance of the Monk! So, we're removing the Combo system and putting most of the finishers into the Monk class Enhancement Trees. Let's take a look!

Overall Monk Class Changes
  1. The elemental combo builder attacks granted at level 1 and with Adept/Master/Grandmaster of Forms are removed. (You still gain the Stances as before).
  2. The Monk Finishing Move feat is removed.
  3. The Shining Star feat is removed. (We're considering how to work this back in - let us know where you'd like to see it.)
  4. You still select Light or Dark path at Monk Level 3, but they are no longer attacks - Instead, they influence multiselectors in the Monk trees.
  5. Quivering Palm's DC now uses Strength if it is highest (highest of Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom Modifier)
  6. Stunning Fist can now be used with any Melee Weapon as long as you are Centered.
    1. Stunning Fist's DC now uses the highest of Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom.

Monk Enhancement Trees Overview

We had a few goals in our changes to the trees: Primarily, we needed to work in the removed Finishing Moves. Secondarily, we wanted to make the Trees more flexible. In the current Live version of Monk, your tree selection is strongly restricted by weapon:
  • Shintao: Only works well with Handwraps
  • Henshin: Only works well with Quarterstaves
  • Ninja Spy: Works well with every Monk weapon that isn't Handwraps or Quarterstaves.
Our plan here involves making these trees more weapon-agnostic (even if they may still include some bonuses to those weapons) and instead refocuses them on themes. Ideally, this will lead to more diversity of Monk builds and more interesting choices. The below trees now focus on:
  • Shintao: Core weapon DPS, with some Positive/Negative energy.
  • Ninja Spy: Poison, Tricks, and Stealth/Sneak.
  • Henshin Mystic: Using weapon stats to do Elemental damage, defenses.
The planned changelists for each tree are below. If something is not mentioned, there is no plan to change it at this time. As we've said above, this is not final, just the current plan.

Shintao

  • Cores:
    • Cores remain the same, except all abilities that say with Handwraps now say while Centered.
    • To Seek Perfection's "You no longer suffer penalties from Meditation of War" is removed (see below) and replaced with "If you have Meditation of War, +10 Melee and Ranged Power".
  • Tier 1:
    • Elemental Curatives is replaced with Shintao Studies: +1 to Attack and Damage while Centered. (Antireq: Ninjutsu and Henshin Training. Essentially, you can only take one Attack+Damage line.)
    • Ki Shout is removed (moved to HM), and replaced with NEW: Fast Hands (Multiselector): +1/2/3% Doublestrike OR Doubleshot
    • Exemplar is removed (moved to HM), and replaced with Negotiator currently found in Henshin Mystic.
  • Tier 2:
    • Elemental Curatives is replaced with Shintao Studies: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
    • Elemental Ki Strikes are no longer combo builders, but otherwise remain unchanged.
    • Conditioning is removed (moved to HM), and replaced with Quick Strike currently found in Henshin Mystic. Quick Strike is no longer restricted to Quarterstaves, but you must be Centered.
  • Tier 3:
    • Elemental Curatives is replaced with Shintao Studies: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
    • NEW: Hands of Mercy (Multiselector):
      • Light Path: Hand of Healing: You heal all nearby allies for 1d4 plus 1d4 per monk level. (12 second cooldown, costs 5 Ki)
      • Dark Path: Hand of Harm: Melee Attack: You strike your opponent down with a terrible curse, halving all positive energy healing done to the target, reducing its fortification by 25%, and increasing its negative energy vulnerability by 25%. Periodic Fortitude saves (14 + STR/DEX/WIS Modifier + Monk Level + Stunning Bonuses) to negate. (12 second cooldown, costs 10 ki)
    • Dismissing Strike has its AP cost reduced to 1, because it's extremely situational
  • Tier 4:
    • Elemental Curatives is replaced with Shintao Studies: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
    • NEW: Greater Mercies (Multiselector):
      • Light Path: Greater Hand of Healing: Your Hand of Healing now applies a Lesser Restoration effect and removes Blindness, Curses, and Diseases.
      • Dark Path: Greater Hand of Harm: Targets affected by your Hand of Harm are also Blinded and Nauseated until they save.
  • Tier 5:
    • Empty Hand Mastery becomes Shintao Mastery, which does the same thing but "and wielding Handwraps" is removed.
    • Kukan-Do now reads: You lock gazes with an enemy, stunning them for a short period of time on a failed Will save (DC 14 + Wisdom modifier + Monk level). Any effects that modify your Stunning Blow or Stunning Fist DC's also affect this ability. Sightless creatures are unaffected by this ability. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)
    • The penalties from Meditation of War are removed. It also gains +3 to Attack and Damage while Centered in addition to its other effects.

Ninja Spy

  • Cores:
    • Poisoned Darts now reads "Ki Activate: You spit poisoned darts in a cone before you. Nearby enemies are affected by between 4 and 8 stacks of Ninja Poison. (Magical Poison: Target takes 1d4 points of Poison damage, which scales with the higher of Melee and Ranged Power every 3 seconds for 15 seconds. If a target affected by this attack is normally immune to Poison, they become vulnerable to Poison while affected by Poisoned Darts. This ability can stack up to 20 times. On timer expiration, 4 stacks of Ninja Poison are removed at a time.) (Activation Cost: 15 Ki. Cooldown: 12 seconds)"
    • Diversion no longer has its Critical bonus (moved to Tier 5).
    • Ninja Master now also has "+10% Fortification Bypass. If you have Self Defense, you also gain +10 Melee and Ranged Power".
  • Tier 1:
    • Ninjutsu is removed, and replaced by the new Ninjutsu: +1 to Attack and Damage while Centered. (Antireq: Shintao Studies and Henshin Training. Essentially, you can only take one Attack+Damage line.)
  • Tier 2:
    • Ninjutsu is removed, and replaced by the new Ninjutsu: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
    • Elemental Ki Strikes is cut (it exists in Shintao and I don't think people dip into multiple of these across two trees). It is replaced with Extra Action Boost: +1/2/3 Action Boosts.
    • Action Boost: Melee/Ranged Power is now a multiselector with Action Boost: Haste.
  • Tier 3:
    • Ninjutsu is removed, and replaced by the new Ninjutsu: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
    • Flash Bang is removed, and replaced by Shadow Arts:
      • Light Path: Flash Bang: Ki Bomb Spell-Like Ability: Throws a fragile eggshell imbued with ninja magic that explodes into light, blinding opponents for 6 seconds on a failed reflex save and momentarily dazing opponents on a failed fortitude save. Both saving throws have DC equal to (10/14/18 + Monk Level + Highest of Str/Dex/Wis Mod + Assassinate DCs). (Activation Cost: 20 Ki. Cooldown: 30 seconds)
      • Dark Path: Shadow Flurry: Melee Attack: +20% damage, guaranteed Critical Hit. Cost: 20 HP, 10 Ki. Cooldown: 12 seconds.
  • Tier 4:
    • Ninjutsu is removed, and replaced by the new Ninjutsu: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
    • Deadly Exploits is removed, and replaced with Greater Shadow Arts:
      • Light Path: Cloak of Shadows: After using Flash Bang, you become Invisible for 6 seconds which is not broken by actions.
      • Dark Path: Poison Exploit: On a failed saving throw, your Shadow Flurry purges an enemy of Ninja Poison, dealing 1d20 + 20 poison damage per stack of Ninja Poison removed. Scales with higher of Melee/Ranged Power. (This factors in the damage boost from Deadly Exploit as well.)
  • Tier 5:
    • Touch of Death now reads: You strike a living opponent down with twisted ki, dealing +50% damage and 500 additional negative energy damage that scales with 200% Melee Power. Your opponent takes half damage on a successful Fortitude save (DC = 14 + Monk Level + Highest of Str/Dex/Wis Modifier + Assassinate DCs). Cooldown: 20 seconds). Passive: +3 to Hit and Damage while Centered,
    • Deadly Striker now reads: "While you are centered, you gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. Kamas, Shortswords, and Shuriken gain an additional +1 Critical Threat Range."

Henshin Mystic

  • Cores:
    • Riddle of Fire now gains "While you are centered, you can use your Wisdom modifier to hit" in addition to its other effects.
    • The casting time on Ki Bolt is reduced. Ki Bolt also gains "While you are centered, you can use your Wisdom modifier for damage. In addition, while you are Centered, you gain +2 Ki each time you hit a creature. This stacks with all other sources of Ki generation."
    • Sounding Staff is now Cauldron of Flame. Most of it remains the same, but "you personally gain +20 PRR, +10 MRR, and +15% Dodge that ignores Dodge Cap" changes to "you personally gain PRR equal to your Monk level, MRR equal to your Monk level, and Dodge that ignores Dodge Cap equal to 5 + half your Monk Level." It also grants +15% Competence Bonus to Quarterstaff Attack Speed. (The identical speed boost in Rogue Acrobat's Thief Acrobatics will also be typed Competence at this time).
    • Incinerating Wave now changes elemental damage if you have a non-Fire Elemental Soul Imbue active.
    • Cauldron of Flame is now Improved Cauldron: The cooldown timer on Cauldron of Flames is now halved. You may now move a small range outside your Cauldron without it collapsing.
    • Serenity removes the text "and wielding a Quarterstaff" and replaces it with "and Centered", letting you gain the bonus crit while in the Cauldron with other weapons. The Attack Speed for Quarterstaves is removed (see Cauldron of Flame).
  • Tier 1:
    • Elemental Words now grants you all four of the attacks, which now share a cooldown. The attacks are no longer combo moves, but instead gain the damage from the defunct elemental combo builders: 1d6 Elemental damage. Having Adept/Master/Grandmaster of Forms upgrades this damage to 2d6/1d10/1d20.
    • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and Damage while Centered. (Antireq: Shintao Studies and Ninjutsu. Essentially, you can only take one Attack+Damage line.)
    • Mystic Training is removed (no longer using Finishing Move DCs anywhere) and replaced with Ki Shout (formerly in Shintao)
    • Negotiator is removed, and replaced with Exemplar (formerly in Shintao)
  • Tier 2:
    • Elemental Words is replaced with Elemental Soul: You gain four Imbue toggles, one for each of Fire, Cold, Electric, and Acid. When toggled, you enhance your attacks with ki, dealing 1d6 (Element) damage on hit, and an additional 1d6 Force damage on crit. Your Ki Spells also apply the (Element) portion of this damage. This damage scales with the highest of Melee and Ranged Power.
    • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
    • Quick Strike moves to Shintao, and is replaced by Conditioning from that tree.
    • Elemental Ki Strikes is removed (it's in Shintao), and replaced with Embrace the Void, which moves down from Tier 3.
  • Tier 3:
    • Elemental Words is replaced with Mystic Kata:
      • Light Path: Kata of Wind: Activate to grant you and nearby allies 20% Concealment for 60 seconds. (90 second cooldown, costs 10 ki)
      • Dark Path: Kata of Ice: You perform an attack that encases a tainted target in ice on a failed Will save for 10 seconds. (DC = 10 + STR/DEX/WIS modifier + Monk level + Stunning DC boosts). Costs 20 ki, 12 second cooldown
    • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
    • Lighting the Candle is gone, replaced with T2 Elemental Soul. It is replaced with Mantra of Body: +2/4/6 PRR
    • NEW: Clear Your Mind: Battle Trance: While Centered, you gain an Insight bonus to Attack, Damage and the DC of Tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Wisdom modifier for 30/60/120 seconds. Cooldown: 20 seconds. Activation Cost: 30 Ki. The effects of this Trance are dispelled if you are no longer Centered. Antirequisite: This ability can not be trained if you have any other Battle Trance ability (e.g. Know the Angles).
  • Tier 4:
    • Elemental Words is replaced with Mystic Kata:
      • Light Path: Kata of Deep Magic: When you use Dance of Wind, you grant you and other allies a 25% reduction in Spell Point Cost for 60 seconds.
      • Dark Path: Kata of Dark Stars: You perform an attack that encases a tainted target in ice on a failed Will save for 10 seconds. (DC = 10 + STR/DEX/WIS modifier + Monk level + Stunning DC boosts). Costs 20 ki, 12 second cooldown
    • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
    • NEW: Mantra of Soul: +2/4/6 MRR
  • Tier 5:
    • Void Strike is no longer a Void combo builder. Otherwise, remains the same.
    • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +3 to Attack and Damage while Centered.
    • Staff Specialization is now Mystic Honing, +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier and Threat Range. Passive: You gain a +25% Competence bonus to maximum hit points.
    • Balance In Dawn'sattacks are no longer Light/Dark builders.
 
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Melkizadek

Well-known member
I like it! Seems more in line with other classes for new players, but retains a lot of the flavor. Can't wait to test it.
 

J1NG

I can do things others can't...
Preliminary thoughts:

1. It's way too soon to ask of this, but will there be a LR(0) heart avaialble to Monk players? Given as this is a major mechanics change to how Monks would play.

2. Could the Henshin Mystic ("Finisher") Kata's be selectable between each other? So the T3 version can be T3 or T4 Kata. But when selected in T4, there's an even more advanced version available? :: edit :: Somewhat like in Inquitive? Where it's Shoot First or Ask Questions First, then Ask Questions Later or Shoot Later?

J1NG
 

droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
Having Adept/Master/Grandmaster of Forms upgrades this damage to 2d6/1d10/1d20.

7/5.5/11.5 average damage seems like an odd path of upgrading...lol

1d10+3 would probably be where you want to have it in the second step, if you dont just want the simpler path of 2d6/3d6/4d6

Not that it really matters, if it doesnt scale with Monk level - its trivial damage outside early Heroic regardless
 

Triaxx2

Well-known member
I like a lot of this, but I admit, losing 3x Earth is painful. It's a very solid early combo to land on enemy casters who are one of the biggest threats to monks.

Shining Star is cool, but it never quite fit with a Dark flavored monk. I think having it be a power granted on a moderate cooldown for the Henshin/Shintao capstones would work. It'll keep the flavor of needing pure monk, but it also means we can have Shining Star that causes dancing for a light monk, and Guiding Darkness that causes a single target blind, causing helpless. (With red/purples being immune as usual)
 

Xgya

Well-known member
I like what I'm seeing so far.
I'll have to see how it plays later, but there's quite a few ideas in there I actually like.
I was afraid losing finishers would lose Monks one of the easier access to healing they have, but it's a T3 ability without the clunkiness.
I'll trade the clunkiness for some AP for sure. Not entirely sure everyone will, but I'm absolutely here for it.
 

Eme

Well-known member
HI, life time monk exclusive player here ( 14 monks of various types and experiments) , not feeling this, yet. Seriously concerned.

What's happened to light's Healing Shield curse ? Can see no mention of it?
Where's the ANti Stun buff?
Shining STar is Great, removing it would be a huge mistake.

Many things about this leave me feeling garbage.
So far, many things in each tree that make me wish you hadn't bothered and just fixed what was there.

..Edit- OH I see, you've taken all the good stuff out of light finishers to put in the new dragon monk.
Surprising, not surprising, I didn't think you'd go that far.
Hoping you forgot to add things to the above, otherwise this will be the end of the line for me.
 
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Lominal

Well-known member
You need to add more for shurikens in ninja spy, currently it seems like you're taking away things from ranged monk:
-moving the crit to t5 means we can no longer use t5 HW, losing 50 RP
-shuriken cant benefit from haste boost
- the active attacks are melee only
I would suggest:
-letting the action boost be a multiselector of RP or haste
-let the t5 % hp+ crit multi be a multiselector for either % hp or improved archer focus in addition to the multi (like vkf)
- give ranged versions of the melee attacks
 

Xeang

Well-known member
Quick First Observations:

1. Haste multi-selector should be in the Shintao Tree which focuses on DPS. The Ninja Tree Tier 1 offers little to nothing for the DPS of
handwrap (or staff, etc) to spend points on to get to the Haste multi-selector. Seems I am still more effective going into the Vistani Tree for
that.


2. Ninja should have a tier 1 "Assassinate" bonuses (+1, +2, +3) and maybe further assassinate bonuses further of the tree. Otherwise again I
might as well shop in the Falconry Tree.


3. I don't like that the only way to prevent "daze, stun, etc. (which used to be available by level 3 monk through the builders) is now only
available in the archtype (at tier 4 if I remember). That very useful monk buff should still be available in the normal Henshin tree with the
changes, not just having to be the archtype.


4. Since the "Quick Strike" is moving to the Shintao Tree (primarily Handwraps emphasis) does it still only affect quarterstaves? Should it not be
all monk ki weapons?


5. I like you moved Battle Stance for Wisdom down a tier and not just in Falconry Tree -- that was a heavy cost of enhancements to reach that.

6. I like that you are keeping Jade Strike and Tomb of Jade -- the only effect CC for monks basically on reapers and one of the prettiest visuals in the game.

7. I would like to see "Shining Star" old finisher fill in the spot of the empty space in tier 3 or 4 of the Shintao Tree. It fits best there as Henshin
has void strike and Ninjitsu has Touch of Death as very effectual single mob attacks.


8. Overall a gentle to firm push of improving the monk trees that many of us have waited a decade+ to see. Thank you!
 

J1NG

I can do things others can't...
What's happened to light's Healing Shield curse ? Can see no mention of it?

They mentioned that if there's no mention of anything, it's not been changed. So "in theory", it should still be there working as it does now.

Where's the ANti Stun buff?
Shining STar is Great, removing it would be a huge mistake.

Agree on these. The Anti-Stun was what made my monk a heavily utility Monk back in Mod 9 F2P for ToD (and in other stuff now too, including Lord of Blades). Loss of Anti-Stun (Grasp the Earth Dragon) would be a heavy loss.

Shining Star probably goes into Level 20 Feat ability, or each Monk Capstone has their own version; Normal Melee for Shintao, Ranged for Ninja, AOE for Henshin, etc.

J1NG
 

Eme

Well-known member
They mentioned that if there's no mention of anything, it's not been changed. So "in theory", it should still be there working as it does now.
they mentioned it was changed:
You still select Light or Dark path at Monk Level 3, but they are no longer attacks - Inste
 

J1NG

I can do things others can't...
they mentioned it was changed:
You still select Light or Dark path at Monk Level 3, but they are no longer attacks - Inste
Interesting. Missed that in my first read through.

J1NG
 

J1NG

I can do things others can't...
Given I see where the other stuff has gone to (Archetype), I would actually re-suggest and repropose what I wrote earlier:

1. T3 and T4 finishers for Henshin should be interchangably be selectable, including what we have from the Archetype. (Stun Immunity, +2 etc)

2. However, T4 gains extra bonus; +5% Cooldown besides +25% Spell Point Reduction, Target is trapped in Ice + 3% all damage absorption penalty, etc.

3. The Archetype gains further relevant bonus.

This means we don't lose out on what we had before only to hide them away in an Archetype (even if it is free in a month or twos time). And we get more unique interactions. Two Monks that can cast stuff? That overlaps. A Monk AND Archtype in a run? We have stackings effects now. etc.

J1NG
 

I dont Like gimps

Well-known member
You need to add more for shurikens in ninja spy, currently it seems like you're taking away things from ranged monk:
-moving the crit to t5 means we can no longer use t5 HW, losing 50 RP
-shuriken cant benefit from haste boost
- the active attacks are melee only
I would suggest:
-letting the action boost be a multiselector of RP or haste
-let the t5 % hp+ crit multi be a multiselector for either % hp or improved archer focus in addition to the multi (like vkf)
- give ranged versions of the melee attacks
while I agree That it needs a bit of shuriken specific stuff

we also have to acknowledge that we werent supposed to be able to run HW t5 without Halfling t4 Which we all did thx to the Capstone :D
 
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