U72 Early Look: Monk Revamp

[Eme]

HI,
Monk (exclusive) player since release, here.
14 monks, of various types and experiments across servers, which all filter knowledge to my mains.
Detailed thoughts to EVERYTHING, before you ruin what once was great. I hope my experience is useful, as I do not want to get angry with these changes and leave.
We ( Monks) have had a hard ride over the years with nerfs and changes, some good, some horrible, especially if we have reincarnated to compliment aspects of them as they stood at that time. It has felt like a knife in the back on multiple occasions.

Hello, everyone!

We have decided that the time has come to take a look at the Monk class as a whole and make some adjustments while we debut the upcoming Dragon Disciple Monk Archetype (see thread here!)

Below is an early plan and subject to change:

Monk Combos and Finishing Moves

The Combo and Finishing Move system in the Monk class has had issues for a long time. Some of the issues we identified were:

• The combo builders themselves are not especially strong.

this is true. They break down usefulness in higher levels. Many also lost their use when immuinities were implemented to higher design. Understandable as the game is supposed to get harder. Great for low levels, but when you get serious, you start to consider,' does this work against bosses/red names' or is it something for trash and a waste of time?'.

But that was experience, and the finishers that are useful, can be the reason why the class is chosen in the first place. ANti-stun finisher, im looking at you.

• Combo-building is clunky due to cooldowns.

it's clunky because of lag.

When there is no lag there is minimal issue with them. But when it's laggy, you can line up a finisher, have it show as ready to use, and then it vanishes, for no reason, even if you are just stood doing nothing at all, needing a 4th ending to get it to reappear. They were a little clunky when we were all first learning to use them, but nothing major, the biggest iussue with them, when learning them for a new low level player is lack of KI, this is way too slow for early level monks to get a feel for them and results in a bad look for monks to them .

They have noticably gottern worse in conjunction with the lag.

• The combo system is easily interrupted by common actions, resetting your combo.

Yes, but as above, it's LAG that is the main problem.

As we looked into adjusting this system we encountered the following:

• Strengthening combo builders makes the Monk disproportionately powerful across all level ranges, especially as there is no cost (feat slots, action points) in gaining them - Monks get these and their trees and their bonus feats.

the cost is class. Do you think, for clerics, for example: 'their healing makes them disproportionately powerful?'
This is not a valid reason to remove finishers.

• The cooldowns on the builders are structurally important to make sure the system functions as intended, and it is nearly impossible to reduce that cooldown without creating additional issues.

Sounds like your coding is the issue, not the finishers themselves. Still no reason to remove them.

• On our code side, the combo system relies on an opt-out designation for actions to break your combo, meaning that to make the combo system more flexible would require individually tagging hundreds-to-thousands of individual actions as "this doesn't break a combo", or rebuilding the combo system from scratch.

We have instead decided to explore a more comprehensive rebalance of the Monk! So, we're removing the Combo system and putting most of the finishers into the Monk class Enhancement Trees. Let's take a look!

Overall Monk Class Changes

1. The elemental combo builder attacks granted at level 1 and with Adept/Master/Grandmaster of Forms are removed. (You still gain the Stances as before).

THis is VERY disappointing. THis will badly affect low level monks without learning the fun nuances and stregths of the class and it's progress through levels.
Some of those finishers were WHY we choose to play monk.

1. The Monk Finishing Move feat is removed.
2. The Shining Star feat is removed. (We're considering how to work this back in - let us know where you'd like to see it.)

This is a lovely finisher to get at 20, and part of the encouragement to go pure monk. And is an extremely useful CC.
It is fun, and always makes me smile when I use it as I think about the song it was based on.
WHat happened to the sense of fun that development used to have ?

THis should certainly be put back in.

ANother part of why finishers are great ( when they work), is you don't need to have many tooldbar slots covered with them, 4 elementals, a light or dark, and an optional special or two (to speed up reaching certain finishers quicker -which also rewarded investing in monk skills) and your finisher/do_it was all you needed to have your whole bag of specials at hand.

1. You still select Light or Dark path at Monk Level 3, but they are no longer attacks - Instead, they influence multiselectors in the Monk trees.

Healing curse NEEDS to go back. THis would be a make or break the game issue, for me.
What about the light damage element ? gone, now?
Dark needs the damage to scale with level or changed to a + damage % debuff to mobs including rednamed.

1. Quivering Palm's DC now uses Strength if it is highest (highest of Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom Modifier)

Don't agree it should, thematically.
I think it makes a mockery of wise attacks, escpecially with the insane strength boosts on items/skills out there with nothing to compete in wisdom.

1. Stunning Fist can now be used with any Melee Weapon as long as you are Centered.
   1. Stunning Fist's DC now uses the highest of Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom.

..and +stun bonuses?
Or is it intended to be useless, now, too?
Does stunning fist share a cooldown with stunning blow? (else it will favour 2 stuns for strength builds over others. )
Again, a mockery to wise attacks with the insane boosts you can get for strength with items/skills, compared to wisdom.

These strength for Dc's changes, I can see that you want to esxpand it's use, but you haven't considered the priority and bonuses that strength gets everywhere compared to wisdom. This is now biased to strength builds, and the polar opposite to what monks are about.

Monk Enhancement Trees Overview

We had a few goals in our changes to the trees: Primarily, we needed to work in the removed Finishing Moves. Secondarily, we wanted to make the Trees more flexible. In the current Live version of Monk, your tree selection is strongly restricted by weapon:

• Shintao: Only works well with Handwraps
• Henshin: Only works well with Quarterstaves
• Ninja Spy: Works well with every Monk weapon that isn't Handwraps or Quarterstaves.

shouldn't remove the finsihers. But the weapon limitations of the trees isn't good.

Our plan here involves making these trees more weapon-agnostic (even if they may still include some bonuses to those weapons) and instead refocuses them on themes. Ideally, this will lead to more diversity of Monk builds and more interesting choices. The below trees now focus on:

• Shintao: Core weapon DPS, with some Positive/Negative energy.
• Ninja Spy: Poison, Tricks, and Stealth/Sneak.
• Henshin Mystic: Using weapon stats to do Elemental damage, defenses.

The planned changelists for each tree are below. If something is not mentioned, there is no plan to change it at this time. As we've said above, this is not final, just the current plan.

Shintao​

• Cores:
  • Cores remain the same, except all abilities that say with Handwraps now say while Centered.
  • To Seek Perfection's "You no longer suffer penalties from Meditation of War" is removed (see below) and replaced with "If you have Meditation of War, +10 Melee and Ranged Power".

good

• Tier 1:
  • Elemental Curatives is replaced with Shintao Studies: +1 to Attack and Damage while Centered. (Antireq: Ninjutsu and Henshin Training. Essentially, you can only take one Attack+Damage line.)

why, though? Points are tight enough as is.

• • Ki Shout is removed (moved to HM), and replaced with NEW: Fast Hands (Multiselector): +1/2/3% Doublestrike OR Doubleshot

Why, though? I couldn't afford shout in the first place with how tight points are and how rubbish it's DC is with no intimidate bonuses.

The doublestrike, for me isn't great , but know many it could be useful for. ( I have lost count of the amount of monks I have given advice and tips to over the years). Not sure 1% is worth 1 enhancement point though, should be steps of 1-2-2%'s.

• • Exemplar is removed (moved to HM), and replaced with Negotiator currently found in Henshin Mystic.

Surely negotiator is more a Nijna/skills thing, now?

• Tier 2:
  • Elemental Curatives is replaced with Shintao Studies: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • Elemental Ki Strikes are no longer combo builders, but otherwise remain unchanged.

THis rewarded investment into monk skills and allowed faster building of finishers, it made making a choice worthwhile and good. THis is a mistake that devalues the strikes.

• • Conditioning is removed (moved to HM), and replaced with Quick Strike currently found in Henshin Mystic. Quick Strike is no longer restricted to Quarterstaves, but you must be Centered.

Unless doublestrike is going to allow uses over 100% this is a joke. Less hitpoints available in shintao, with points needing to be spent to advance tiers in what will be useless skills. Useful at lower levels, sure, but at higher levels we are already near or at 100% doublestrike.

• Tier 3:
  • Elemental Curatives is replaced with Shintao Studies: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • NEW: Hands of Mercy (Multiselector):
    • Light Path: Hand of Healing: You heal all nearby allies for 1d4 plus 1d4 per monk level. (12 second cooldown, costs 5 Ki)
    • Dark Path: Hand of Harm: Melee Attack: You strike your opponent down with a terrible curse, halving all positive energy healing done to the target, reducing its fortification by 25%, and increasing its negative energy vulnerability by 25%. Periodic Fortitude saves (14 + STR/DEX/WIS Modifier + Monk Level + Stunning Bonuses) to negate. (12 second cooldown, costs 10 ki)

Ok, this replaces triple way of finishers.

But doesnt replace healing curse. THis is a major part of light monks healing capability, which has over the years been nerfed, nerfed, nerfed and now completely removed. THis angers me so much.

What about the Grandmaster of flowers core capstone? Does this now lower the time this can be used from 12 seconds down to 6 seconds? Or Is that core capstone, which allowed faster building of triple ways, now useless, too?

• Dismissing Strike has its AP cost reduced to 1, because it's extremely situational

good

• Tier 4:
  • Elemental Curatives is replaced with Shintao Studies: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • NEW: Greater Mercies (Multiselector):
    • Light Path: Greater Hand of Healing: Your Hand of Healing now applies a Lesser Restoration effect and removes Blindness, Curses, and Diseases.
    • Dark Path: Greater Hand of Harm: Targets affected by your Hand of Harm are also Blinded and Nauseated until they save.

good.

• Tier 5:
  • Empty Hand Mastery becomes Shintao Mastery, which does the same thing but "and wielding Handwraps" is removed.
  • Kukan-Do now reads: You lock gazes with an enemy, stunning them for a short period of time on a failed Will save (DC 14 + Wisdom modifier + Monk level). Any effects that modify your Stunning Blow or Stunning Fist DC's also affect this ability. Sightless creatures are unaffected by this ability. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Absolutely TERRIBLE. The time change for Kukando is insulting. Leave this be for $%^$^% sake.
THis time change will drive me crazy.
Stop taking abilities away from monks.

• • The penalties from Meditation of War are removed. It also gains +3 to Attack and Damage while Centered in addition to its other effects.

good

Ninja Spy​

• Cores:
  • Poisoned Darts now reads "Ki Activate: You spit poisoned darts in a cone before you. Nearby enemies are affected by between 4 and 8 stacks of Ninja Poison. (Magical Poison: Target takes 1d4 points of Poison damage, which scales with the higher of Melee and Ranged Power every 3 seconds for 15 seconds. If a target affected by this attack is normally immune to Poison, they become vulnerable to Poison while affected by Poisoned Darts. This ability can stack up to 20 times. On timer expiration, 4 stacks of Ninja Poison are removed at a time.) (Activation Cost: 15 Ki. Cooldown: 12 seconds)"

OK, should also have the option for poison power.
There BADLY needs to be a core at some point that includes 'Ranged Ki Regen+1'.

• • Diversion no longer has its Critical bonus (moved to Tier 5).
  • Ninja Master now also has "+10% Fortification Bypass. If you have Self Defense, you also gain +10 Melee and Ranged Power".
• Tier 1:
  • Ninjutsu is removed, and replaced by the new Ninjutsu: +1 to Attack and Damage while Centered. (Antireq: Shintao Studies and Henshin Training. Essentially, you can only take one Attack+Damage line.)

• Tier 2:
  • Ninjutsu is removed, and replaced by the new Ninjutsu: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • Elemental Ki Strikes is cut (it exists in Shintao and I don't think people dip into multiple of these across two trees). It is replaced with Extra Action Boost: +1/2/3 Action Boosts.

• • Action Boost: Melee/Ranged Power is now a multiselector with Action Boost: Haste.

good

• Tier 3:
  • Ninjutsu is removed, and replaced by the new Ninjutsu: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • Flash Bang is removed, and replaced by Shadow Arts:
    • Light Path: Flash Bang: Ki Bomb Spell-Like Ability: Throws a fragile eggshell imbued with ninja magic that explodes into light, blinding opponents for 6 seconds on a failed reflex save and momentarily dazing opponents on a failed fortitude save. Both saving throws have DC equal to (10/14/18 + Monk Level + Highest of Str/Dex/Wis Mod + Assassinate DCs). (Activation Cost: 20 Ki. Cooldown: 30 seconds)
    • Dark Path: Shadow Flurry: Melee Attack: +20% damage, guaranteed Critical Hit. Cost: 20 HP, 10 Ki. Cooldown: 12 seconds.

• Tier 4:
  • Ninjutsu is removed, and replaced by the new Ninjutsu: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.

damn, all these damage lines are dull as dishwater

• • Deadly Exploits is removed, and replaced with Greater Shadow Arts:
    • Light Path: Cloak of Shadows: After using Flash Bang, you become Invisible for 6 seconds which is not broken by actions.
    • Dark Path: Poison Exploit: On a failed saving throw, your Shadow Flurry purges an enemy of Ninja Poison, dealing 1d20 + 20 poison damage per stack of Ninja Poison removed. Scales with higher of Melee/Ranged Power. (This factors in the damage boost from Deadly Exploit as well.)

hope this is melee AND ranged, as ranged get a short end of the stick currently

• Tier 5:
  • Touch of Death now reads: You strike a living opponent down with twisted ki, dealing +50% damage and 500 additional negative energy damage that scales with 200% Melee Power. Your opponent takes half damage on a successful Fortitude save (DC = 14 + Monk Level + Highest of Str/Dex/Wis Modifier + Assassinate DCs). Cooldown: 20 seconds). Passive: +3 to Hit and Damage while Centered,
  • Deadly Striker now reads: "While you are centered, you gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. Kamas, Shortswords, and Shuriken gain an additional +1 Critical Threat Range."

nice

Henshin Mystic​

• Cores:
  • Riddle of Fire now gains "While you are centered, you can use your Wisdom modifier to hit" in addition to its other effects.
  • The casting time on Ki Bolt is reduced. Ki Bolt also gains "While you are centered, you can use your Wisdom modifier for damage. In addition, while you are Centered, you gain +2 Ki each time you hit a creature. This stacks with all other sources of Ki generation."
  • Sounding Staff is now Cauldron of Flame. Most of it remains the same, but "you personally gain +20 PRR, +10 MRR, and +15% Dodge that ignores Dodge Cap" changes to "you personally gain PRR equal to your Monk level, MRR equal to your Monk level, and Dodge that ignores Dodge Cap equal to 5 + half your Monk Level." It also grants +15% Competence Bonus to Quarterstaff Attack Speed. (The identical speed boost in Rogue Acrobat's Thief Acrobatics will also be typed Competence at this time).

Quickdraw still a part of this? It's very useful to have it for builds that are already feat starved.

Does this dodge cap still require QStaff to be equipped or not? It should mention it if so, as it currently doesn't and is a source of confusion for new players.

• • Incinerating Wave now changes elemental damage if you have a non-Fire Elemental Soul Imbue active.
  • Cauldron of Flame is now Improved Cauldron: The cooldown timer on Cauldron of Flames is now halved. You may now move a small range outside your Cauldron without it collapsing.

IMHO The cauldron should also move around with the player, like an aura, and not be a static on the floor thing, as it makes it a poor choice for fast moving combat, and 'improved' should, instead, give nearby players a slight boost as well,.

• • Serenity removes the text "and wielding a Quarterstaff" and replaces it with "and Centered", letting you gain the bonus crit while in the Cauldron with other weapons. The Attack Speed for Quarterstaves is removed (see Cauldron of Flame).

Are the Imbues still +1 dice per core? If not it's a serious nerf to some builds. And the power ? So far it reads like they should be if not mentioned?

• Tier 1:
  • Elemental Words now grants you all four of the attacks, which now share a cooldown. The attacks are no longer combo moves, but instead gain the damage from the defunct elemental combo builders: 1d6 Elemental damage. Having Adept/Master/Grandmaster of Forms upgrades this damage to 2d6/1d10/1d20.

In other words, even more usless to use in many cases at end game

• • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and Damage while Centered. (Antireq: Shintao Studies and Ninjutsu. Essentially, you can only take one Attack+Damage line.)
  • Mystic Training is removed (no longer using Finishing Move DCs anywhere) and replaced with Ki Shout (formerly in Shintao)
  • Negotiator is removed, and replaced with Exemplar (formerly in Shintao)

• Tier 2:
  • Elemental Words is replaced with Elemental Soul: You gain four Imbue toggles, one for each of Fire, Cold, Electric, and Acid. When toggled, you enhance your attacks with ki, dealing 1d6 (Element) damage on hit, and an additional 1d6 Force damage on crit. Your Ki Spells also apply the (Element)

Does this work with ranged? ANd Imbue dice? It needs to !

• • portion of this damage. This damage scales with the highest of Melee and Ranged Power.
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • Quick Strike moves to Shintao, and is replaced by Conditioning from that tree.
  • Elemental Ki Strikes is removed (it's in Shintao), and replaced with Embrace the Void, which moves down from Tier 3.
• Tier 3:
  • Elemental Words is replaced with Mystic Kata:
    • Light Path: Kata of Wind: Activate to grant you and nearby allies 20% Concealment for 60 seconds. (90 second cooldown, costs 10 ki)

useful at low level, useless at high level.

• • • Dark Path: Kata of Ice: You perform an attack that encases a tainted target in ice on a failed Will save for 10 seconds. (DC = 10 + STR/DEX/WIS modifier + Monk level + Stunning DC boosts). Costs 20 ki, 12 second cooldown

• Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.

• Lighting the Candle is gone, replaced with T2 Elemental Soul. It is replaced with Mantra of Body: +2/4/6 PRR

• NEW: Clear Your Mind: Battle Trance: While Centered, you gain an Insight bonus to Attack, Damage and the DC of Tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Wisdom modifier for 30/60/120 seconds. Cooldown: 20 seconds. Activation Cost: 30 Ki. The effects of this Trance are dispelled if you are no longer Centered. Antirequisite: This ability can not be trained if you have any other Battle Trance ability (e.g. Know the Angles).

good to have the option to get out of falconry.

• Tier 4:
  • Elemental Words is replaced with Mystic Kata:
    • Light Path: Kata of Deep Magic: When you use Dance of Wind, you grant you and other allies a 25% reduction in Spell Point Cost for 60 seconds.

these suck not being part of finishers anymore. Truely SUCK.

• • • Dark Path: Kata of Dark Stars: You perform an attack that encases a tainted target in ice on a failed Will save for 10 seconds. (DC = 10 + STR/DEX/WIS modifier + Monk level + Stunning DC boosts). Costs 20 ki, 12 second cooldown
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • NEW: Mantra of Soul: +2/4/6 MRR
• Tier 5:
  • Void Strike is no longer a Void combo builder. Otherwise, remains the same.
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +3 to Attack and Damage while Centered.
  • Staff Specialization is now Mystic Honing, +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier and Threat Range. Passive: You gain a +25% Competence bonus to maximum hit points.
  • Balance In Dawn'sattacks are no longer Light/Dark builders.

Overall, some good changes, but many awful decisions, and some decisions that will remove my enthusiasm to even play.
I really hope you reconsider some things.

The VERY worst game/class breaking aspects ( for me) are:
no Healing Curse
Kukan Do timer change
Anti Stun buff removed
- Grandmaster of Flowers core capstone now redundant

 

[Lencrennis]

The homogenization of the game continues...

When I saw "Monk Revamp"- my first thought was "Yes! Finally."...I should really have known better.

Monks have had periods where they were top performers, and others where they were closer to the bottom. What they always had, though, was a unique play style. One that was fun to play.

Instead of enhancing that enjoyment, and building on that distinct style- they are taking the most indolent and reductive approach(a frequent theme).

After so many years...this is the best they came up with? I'd rather keep it as is, if so.

Ninja Spy(and stealth play as a whole) needed a serious revamp. Why isn't a core D&D fantasy not being fulfilled even now? I guess we have to wait several more years...so that we can be disappointed then too.

DDO needed a big win, after the calamity that was 2024. This is a major loss.

Precisely. Monk is now pajama punch fighter, with an archetype that's french vanilla pajama punch fighter.

 

[Hipparan]

I like what I see so far, but I'll need to take a deeper look. One thing that comes to mind is that since Shintao will be more of a DPS tree regardless of weapon type, how about adding a Multiselector for Deft Strikes so that quarterstaff users get some Strikethrough?

 

[Zaszgul]

I think there are a lot of good changes here, like opening up weapon types, and thanks to the devs as always for their time spent.

It's a bit strange to have entire lines be redundant across all 3 trees. Wastes quite a bit of space that could otherwise go to interesting choices, and bring back some of what's being cut. If we've decided that "all monks should have +x hit/damage" isn't there a better way to do it?

 

[Phaedra]

2. I feel like limiting the crit range in ninja spy to just three weapons is kind of weak, especially since one of the goals of this rework is to make the monk trees less reliant on one weapon, so I feel this should give just give +1 range and multi to all weapons, like the other two trees.

Read it again. While centered, all weapons get +1threat/mult, and kamas, short swords, and shuriken get an additional +1 threat.

This should stack with Swords to Plowshares (which should really be renamed to "Plowshares to Swords" since that's its purpose.)

I don't know about pure monks, but these new trees look like a big boost to Monk/Kensai hybrids.

I would add 30-50 MRR cap to each monk capstone, in addition to the +30 cap in T5 DD.

I'm also a bit confused why Ki Shout is being moved to Henshin, is it trying to become the "tanking" Monk tree, instead of the weird gish tree?

 

[Xeang]

1000% this. They are taking the fun and unique parts of monk away and simplifying the game down. This makes me incredibly sad as this has always been one of my favorite classes to play.

At first I was hoping they would simply reduce builders to 2x the chosen elemental configuration builders rather than the current 3 times. It would have reduced time and improved monk performance while maintaining the unique complexity and fun of playing a monk.

 

[Zaszgul]

I think there are a lot of good changes here, like opening up weapon types, and thanks to the devs as always for their time spent.

It's a bit strange to have entire lines be redundant across all 3 trees. Wastes quite a bit of space that could otherwise go to interesting choices, and bring back some of what's being cut. If we've decided that "all monks should have +x hit/damage" isn't there a better way to do it?

Re: freeing up tree space - something good to add afterward is an enhancement that boosts Wis DCs, likely in Henshin. With Monk tactics moving to STR (which has a much higher cap than WIS even without true rage and will be preferred by most), WIS builds will probably die without some additional support.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

The more I've thought about this the more I dislike it. They are opening up many more build options with different weapons and AP splits, but at the same time taking away all the different playstyle options. From interesting, if clunky, complexity to generic 1 hot bar rotation like every other class. You can build a more unique monk, but it will play the same as all the others... I'm sad now.

 

[Thar]

Hello, everyone!

We have decided that the time has come to take a look at the Monk class as a whole and make some adjustments while we debut the upcoming Dragon Disciple Monk Archetype (see thread here!)

Below is an early plan and subject to change:

Monk Combos and Finishing Moves

The Combo and Finishing Move system in the Monk class has had issues for a long time. Some of the issues we identified were:

• The combo builders themselves are not especially strong.
• Combo-building is clunky due to cooldowns.
• The combo system is easily interrupted by common actions, resetting your combo.

As we looked into adjusting this system we encountered the following:

• Strengthening combo builders makes the Monk disproportionately powerful across all level ranges, especially as there is no cost (feat slots, action points) in gaining them - Monks get these and their trees and their bonus feats.
• The cooldowns on the builders are structurally important to make sure the system functions as intended, and it is nearly impossible to reduce that cooldown without creating additional issues.
• On our code side, the combo system relies on an opt-out designation for actions to break your combo, meaning that to make the combo system more flexible would require individually tagging hundreds-to-thousands of individual actions as "this doesn't break a combo", or rebuilding the combo system from scratch.

We have instead decided to explore a more comprehensive rebalance of the Monk! So, we're removing the Combo system and putting most of the finishers into the Monk class Enhancement Trees. Let's take a look!

Overall Monk Class Changes

1. The elemental combo builder attacks granted at level 1 and with Adept/Master/Grandmaster of Forms are removed. (You still gain the Stances as before).
2. The Monk Finishing Move feat is removed.
3. The Shining Star feat is removed. (We're considering how to work this back in - let us know where you'd like to see it.)
4. You still select Light or Dark path at Monk Level 3, but they are no longer attacks - Instead, they influence multiselectors in the Monk trees.
5. Quivering Palm's DC now uses Strength if it is highest (highest of Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom Modifier)
6. Stunning Fist can now be used with any Melee Weapon as long as you are Centered.
   1. Stunning Fist's DC now uses the highest of Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom.

Monk Enhancement Trees Overview

We had a few goals in our changes to the trees: Primarily, we needed to work in the removed Finishing Moves. Secondarily, we wanted to make the Trees more flexible. In the current Live version of Monk, your tree selection is strongly restricted by weapon:

• Shintao: Only works well with Handwraps
• Henshin: Only works well with Quarterstaves
• Ninja Spy: Works well with every Monk weapon that isn't Handwraps or Quarterstaves.

Our plan here involves making these trees more weapon-agnostic (even if they may still include some bonuses to those weapons) and instead refocuses them on themes. Ideally, this will lead to more diversity of Monk builds and more interesting choices. The below trees now focus on:

• Shintao: Core weapon DPS, with some Positive/Negative energy.
• Ninja Spy: Poison, Tricks, and Stealth/Sneak.
• Henshin Mystic: Using weapon stats to do Elemental damage, defenses.

The planned changelists for each tree are below. If something is not mentioned, there is no plan to change it at this time. As we've said above, this is not final, just the current plan.

Shintao​

• Cores:
  • Cores remain the same, except all abilities that say with Handwraps now say while Centered.
  • To Seek Perfection's "You no longer suffer penalties from Meditation of War" is removed (see below) and replaced with "If you have Meditation of War, +10 Melee and Ranged Power".
• Tier 1:
  • Elemental Curatives is replaced with Shintao Studies: +1 to Attack and Damage while Centered. (Antireq: Ninjutsu and Henshin Training. Essentially, you can only take one Attack+Damage line.)
  • Ki Shout is removed (moved to HM), and replaced with NEW: Fast Hands (Multiselector): +1/2/3% Doublestrike OR Doubleshot
  • Exemplar is removed (moved to HM), and replaced with Negotiator currently found in Henshin Mystic.
• Tier 2:
  • Elemental Curatives is replaced with Shintao Studies: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • Elemental Ki Strikes are no longer combo builders, but otherwise remain unchanged.
  • Conditioning is removed (moved to HM), and replaced with Quick Strike currently found in Henshin Mystic. Quick Strike is no longer restricted to Quarterstaves, but you must be Centered.
• Tier 3:
  • Elemental Curatives is replaced with Shintao Studies: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • NEW: Hands of Mercy (Multiselector):
    • Light Path: Hand of Healing: You heal all nearby allies for 1d4 plus 1d4 per monk level. (12 second cooldown, costs 5 Ki)
    • Dark Path: Hand of Harm: Melee Attack: You strike your opponent down with a terrible curse, halving all positive energy healing done to the target, reducing its fortification by 25%, and increasing its negative energy vulnerability by 25%. Periodic Fortitude saves (14 + STR/DEX/WIS Modifier + Monk Level + Stunning Bonuses) to negate. (12 second cooldown, costs 10 ki)
  • Dismissing Strike has its AP cost reduced to 1, because it's extremely situational
• Tier 4:
  • Elemental Curatives is replaced with Shintao Studies: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • NEW: Greater Mercies (Multiselector):
    • Light Path: Greater Hand of Healing: Your Hand of Healing now applies a Lesser Restoration effect and removes Blindness, Curses, and Diseases.
    • Dark Path: Greater Hand of Harm: Targets affected by your Hand of Harm are also Blinded and Nauseated until they save.
• Tier 5:
  • Empty Hand Mastery becomes Shintao Mastery, which does the same thing but "and wielding Handwraps" is removed.
  • Kukan-Do now reads: You lock gazes with an enemy, stunning them for a short period of time on a failed Will save (DC 14 + Wisdom modifier + Monk level). Any effects that modify your Stunning Blow or Stunning Fist DC's also affect this ability. Sightless creatures are unaffected by this ability. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)
  • The penalties from Meditation of War are removed. It also gains +3 to Attack and Damage while Centered in addition to its other effects.

Ninja Spy​

• Cores:
  • Poisoned Darts now reads "Ki Activate: You spit poisoned darts in a cone before you. Nearby enemies are affected by between 4 and 8 stacks of Ninja Poison. (Magical Poison: Target takes 1d4 points of Poison damage, which scales with the higher of Melee and Ranged Power every 3 seconds for 15 seconds. If a target affected by this attack is normally immune to Poison, they become vulnerable to Poison while affected by Poisoned Darts. This ability can stack up to 20 times. On timer expiration, 4 stacks of Ninja Poison are removed at a time.) (Activation Cost: 15 Ki. Cooldown: 12 seconds)"
  • Diversion no longer has its Critical bonus (moved to Tier 5).
  • Ninja Master now also has "+10% Fortification Bypass. If you have Self Defense, you also gain +10 Melee and Ranged Power".
• Tier 1:
  • Ninjutsu is removed, and replaced by the new Ninjutsu: +1 to Attack and Damage while Centered. (Antireq: Shintao Studies and Henshin Training. Essentially, you can only take one Attack+Damage line.)
• Tier 2:
  • Ninjutsu is removed, and replaced by the new Ninjutsu: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • Elemental Ki Strikes is cut (it exists in Shintao and I don't think people dip into multiple of these across two trees). It is replaced with Extra Action Boost: +1/2/3 Action Boosts.
  • Action Boost: Melee/Ranged Power is now a multiselector with Action Boost: Haste.
• Tier 3:
  • Ninjutsu is removed, and replaced by the new Ninjutsu: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • Flash Bang is removed, and replaced by Shadow Arts:
    • Light Path: Flash Bang: Ki Bomb Spell-Like Ability: Throws a fragile eggshell imbued with ninja magic that explodes into light, blinding opponents for 6 seconds on a failed reflex save and momentarily dazing opponents on a failed fortitude save. Both saving throws have DC equal to (10/14/18 + Monk Level + Highest of Str/Dex/Wis Mod + Assassinate DCs). (Activation Cost: 20 Ki. Cooldown: 30 seconds)
    • Dark Path: Shadow Flurry: Melee Attack: +20% damage, guaranteed Critical Hit. Cost: 20 HP, 10 Ki. Cooldown: 12 seconds.
• Tier 4:
  • Ninjutsu is removed, and replaced by the new Ninjutsu: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • Deadly Exploits is removed, and replaced with Greater Shadow Arts:
    • Light Path: Cloak of Shadows: After using Flash Bang, you become Invisible for 6 seconds which is not broken by actions.
    • Dark Path: Poison Exploit: On a failed saving throw, your Shadow Flurry purges an enemy of Ninja Poison, dealing 1d20 + 20 poison damage per stack of Ninja Poison removed. Scales with higher of Melee/Ranged Power. (This factors in the damage boost from Deadly Exploit as well.)
• Tier 5:
  • Touch of Death now reads: You strike a living opponent down with twisted ki, dealing +50% damage and 500 additional negative energy damage that scales with 200% Melee Power. Your opponent takes half damage on a successful Fortitude save (DC = 14 + Monk Level + Highest of Str/Dex/Wis Modifier + Assassinate DCs). Cooldown: 20 seconds). Passive: +3 to Hit and Damage while Centered,
  • Deadly Striker now reads: "While you are centered, you gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. Kamas, Shortswords, and Shuriken gain an additional +1 Critical Threat Range."

Henshin Mystic​

• Cores:
  • Riddle of Fire now gains "While you are centered, you can use your Wisdom modifier to hit" in addition to its other effects.
  • The casting time on Ki Bolt is reduced. Ki Bolt also gains "While you are centered, you can use your Wisdom modifier for damage. In addition, while you are Centered, you gain +2 Ki each time you hit a creature. This stacks with all other sources of Ki generation."
  • Sounding Staff is now Cauldron of Flame. Most of it remains the same, but "you personally gain +20 PRR, +10 MRR, and +15% Dodge that ignores Dodge Cap" changes to "you personally gain PRR equal to your Monk level, MRR equal to your Monk level, and Dodge that ignores Dodge Cap equal to 5 + half your Monk Level." It also grants +15% Competence Bonus to Quarterstaff Attack Speed. (The identical speed boost in Rogue Acrobat's Thief Acrobatics will also be typed Competence at this time).
  • Incinerating Wave now changes elemental damage if you have a non-Fire Elemental Soul Imbue active.
  • Cauldron of Flame is now Improved Cauldron: The cooldown timer on Cauldron of Flames is now halved. You may now move a small range outside your Cauldron without it collapsing.
  • Serenity removes the text "and wielding a Quarterstaff" and replaces it with "and Centered", letting you gain the bonus crit while in the Cauldron with other weapons. The Attack Speed for Quarterstaves is removed (see Cauldron of Flame).
• Tier 1:
  • Elemental Words now grants you all four of the attacks, which now share a cooldown. The attacks are no longer combo moves, but instead gain the damage from the defunct elemental combo builders: 1d6 Elemental damage. Having Adept/Master/Grandmaster of Forms upgrades this damage to 2d6/1d10/1d20.
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and Damage while Centered. (Antireq: Shintao Studies and Ninjutsu. Essentially, you can only take one Attack+Damage line.)
  • Mystic Training is removed (no longer using Finishing Move DCs anywhere) and replaced with Ki Shout (formerly in Shintao)
  • Negotiator is removed, and replaced with Exemplar (formerly in Shintao)
• Tier 2:
  • Elemental Words is replaced with Elemental Soul: You gain four Imbue toggles, one for each of Fire, Cold, Electric, and Acid. When toggled, you enhance your attacks with ki, dealing 1d6 (Element) damage on hit, and an additional 1d6 Force damage on crit. Your Ki Spells also apply the (Element) portion of this damage. This damage scales with the highest of Melee and Ranged Power.
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • Quick Strike moves to Shintao, and is replaced by Conditioning from that tree.
  • Elemental Ki Strikes is removed (it's in Shintao), and replaced with Embrace the Void, which moves down from Tier 3.
• Tier 3:
  • Elemental Words is replaced with Mystic Kata:
    • Light Path: Kata of Wind: Activate to grant you and nearby allies 20% Concealment for 60 seconds. (90 second cooldown, costs 10 ki)
    • Dark Path: Kata of Ice: You perform an attack that encases a tainted target in ice on a failed Will save for 10 seconds. (DC = 10 + STR/DEX/WIS modifier + Monk level + Stunning DC boosts). Costs 20 ki, 12 second cooldown
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • Lighting the Candle is gone, replaced with T2 Elemental Soul. It is replaced with Mantra of Body: +2/4/6 PRR
  • NEW: Clear Your Mind: Battle Trance: While Centered, you gain an Insight bonus to Attack, Damage and the DC of Tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Wisdom modifier for 30/60/120 seconds. Cooldown: 20 seconds. Activation Cost: 30 Ki. The effects of this Trance are dispelled if you are no longer Centered. Antirequisite: This ability can not be trained if you have any other Battle Trance ability (e.g. Know the Angles).
• Tier 4:
  • Elemental Words is replaced with Mystic Kata:
    • Light Path: Kata of Deep Magic: When you use Dance of Wind, you grant you and other allies a 25% reduction in Spell Point Cost for 60 seconds.
    • Dark Path: Kata of Dark Stars: You perform an attack that encases a tainted target in ice on a failed Will save for 10 seconds. (DC = 10 + STR/DEX/WIS modifier + Monk level + Stunning DC boosts). Costs 20 ki, 12 second cooldown
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage while Centered.
  • NEW: Mantra of Soul: +2/4/6 MRR
• Tier 5:
  • Void Strike is no longer a Void combo builder. Otherwise, remains the same.
  • Henshin Staff Training is now Henshin Training: +3 to Attack and Damage while Centered.
  • Staff Specialization is now Mystic Honing, +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier and Threat Range. Passive: You gain a +25% Competence bonus to maximum hit points.
  • Balance In Dawn'sattacks are no longer Light/Dark builders.

how do shurikan's change? 10k stars still work as intended? What about bows with the feat that makes them ki weapons. do they work with ninja spy now?

 

[Shall]

At first I was hoping they would simply reduce builders to 2x the chosen elemental configuration builders rather than the current 3 times. It would have reduced time and improved monk performance while maintaining the unique complexity and fun of playing a monk.

Yeah, I thought they would adapt the reaction system from alchemist, only tracking strikes instead of spells, then making new finisher enabling buffs that work like a reaction state since those seem to not get messed up by other actions. Of course I'm not a programmer so there is probably some unbelievably complex reason that can't be done that I don't understand.

 

[Nickodeamous]

Lifetime handwrap monk player here. I'm gonna have to hop on Lam when it's available as there is just alot going on. I am always very cautious when I hear that monks are adjusted...been kinda sketchy over the years. lol

For that, I'll reserve my final judgement until then.

Based on what I am reading, here is the low hanging fruit where I think we need to know more

Questions:

1. Why completely remove the Earth/Fire/Water/Air attacks? Those all gave 10% additional DPS as well as additional damage and elemental damage. This seems like a nerf unless I am missing something. the cooldown is 3 seconds meaning this is a very quick source of extra DPS.
   1. oh...I see what you did...you moved it to HM, but you removed the 10% dps and locked it to one cooldown...basically, you cant run EEE anymore in succession using 3 attacks with separate cooldowns...ouch
   2. perhaps allow us to have another elemental ki strike since this is a selector and before used to build?
2. Without combos, I am not seeing two of the attacks I normally use: Earth-Earth-Earth or Fire-Dark-Fire. EEE gives me: The attack has +2 critical multiplier, and the victim is unable to cast spells for 60 seconds. FDF gives me: This attack is guaranteed to produce critical threat if it hits. These are both HUGE DPS losses (unless they are somewhere else). Is this somewhere I am overlooking, cause I cant seem to find it?
3. Since we have a way to get a dark finisher in the ED GMOF tree, shouldn't we have an attack to use with it? Shouldnt this be updated as well? perhaps additional +3 damage.
   1. Dark Philosophy: +3% Dodge bypass, +10 Magical Resistance Rating cap. Your Stunning Blow and Stunning Fist feats are now considered Dark builder attacks.
4. Kukan-Do - increase the DC by 4, but doubled the cooldown to 30! Why the longer cooldown??
5. Why is Haste Boost in Ninja Spy...I really don't see anything worth taking to get it that outweighs what I get in Vistani. If you truly want us to keep monk in house and just dip between trees, you need to have something on the lower tiers that applies to all monk types. Add the toggle to all the trees please.
6. How about adding a nice whirlwind attack in shintao to match your punchy pally.

Changes of Note:
Quickstrike, Doublestrike, and Melee Power added.

1. I do see that quick strike was added, which is nice for additional dps/Doublestrike (if you need the doublestrike).
2. Adding 3% doublestrike is nice, thanks for that
3. The additional MP in the last core is helpful. (i am reading it correctly, the new full definition of To Seek perfection would be:
   1. To Seek Perfection: You continually seek physical and spiritual betterment, reaping many benefits. You gain +4 Wisdom. +15 Melee Power, +2[W] with centered weapon or while unarmed. You gain an additional +1 bonus to Armor Class and a +1 bonus to saving throws. If you have Meditation of War, +10 Melee and Ranged Power
4. Light/Dark Paths are nice to see you just get the light or dark finisher.
5. Med of War +3 damage. Nice little boost here
6. Henshin Mystic seems to want to try and replace falconry with the wis to hit/damage. I think you should start monks on wis to hit and damage, and then say uses Strength for Henshin, and Dex for Ninja. Basically, you are saying monk damage is strength, but if you want good DCs, you need to dip into falconry or Henshin, the only one being penalized here is handwrap monks. Why is that?

More to come as I dive deeper. Glad there was a pass. Not 100% sure its a buff or a nerf... lol

Nic

 

[Hobgoblin]

how do shurikan's change? 10k stars still work as intended? What about bows with the feat that makes them ki weapons. do they work with ninja spy now?

shuri gets crits multi changed as its not in core its in t5 so have to pick between hw rp and crit multi

 

[Lotoc]

the only one being penalized here is handwrap monk

well the thing you probably missed is every tree is a handwrap tree now.
The trees are being made weapon agnostic, so you can play a handwrap ninja spy or handwrap henshin.

 

[ZombiePossum]

I know that these changes are not final. However, moving Conditioning out of Shintao into HM gives HM two abilities that provide Concentration—the newly moved Conditioning and the existing Contemplation. This will have to be addressed. I suggest moving Contemplation to Shintao instead of Quick Strikes. Concentration adjusts the monk's starting ki, and it doesn't make sense having 2 choices in HM and none in Shintao.

 

[Phaedra]

Concentration adjusts the monk's starting ki, and it doesn't make sense having 2 choices in HM and none in Shintao.

Without builders and finishers, (and with cool downs doubled) when is Shintao going to need more Ki that you have?

 

[Shall]

One other thing I was wondering but didn't see mentioned, is the sting of the ninja imbue going to be changed to work with bludgeoning weapons in keeping with the goal to open the tree up to all monk weapon types or will it stay as piercing/slashing weapons only since it doesn't have any changes listed.

 

[Legovez]

Read it again. While centered, all weapons get +1threat/mult, and kamas, short swords, and shuriken get an additional +1 threat.

Ah, that makes more sense, thank you.

 

[Nickodeamous]

well the thing you probably missed is every tree is a handwrap tree now.
The trees are being made weapon agnostic, so you can play a handwrap ninja spy or handwrap henshin.

You know, I didn't pick that up! Ok, so basically, you can just go strength and get your stunning and QP DCs. I didn't catch it, but are all of the other enhancements being updated to add strength for DCs? I didnt see Kukan-Do, jade strike or tomb of jade hitting off of strength, just wisdom. hmmm

 

[SpardaX]

[*]Elemental Words now grants you all four of the attacks, which now share a cooldown. The attacks are no longer combo moves, but instead gain the damage from the defunct elemental combo builders: 1d6 Elemental damage. Having Adept/Master/Grandmaster of Forms upgrades this damage to 2d6/1d10/1d20.

Sorry if this has been asked already but I havent read through the rest of the forum yet, still reading the notes. Has the cooldown on this been reduced at all? The cooldown on these is 15 seconds currently, and 2 stacks of vulnerable drains away in 6 seconds I believe. So if you wanted to build enough stacks to outlast the cooldown, you needed to take at least 3 of the attacks to get 6 stacks of vulnerable which would take 18 seconds to drain away. If the cooldown remains 15 seconds, and they all share a cooldown, you can't build stacks. Can I suggest reducing the cooldown to 4 or 5 seconds if this hasn't already been done?

 

[Ooblagato]

The primarily affected abilities were in need of a buff, but this feels like a rework with upsides and downsides-- with more downs for players who used the monk abilities to their fullest.

- All combo abilities should probably stay available to all monks with increased cost and no combo build up with appropriate cooldowns. Enhancement trees should give access to new abilities or upgrades to the combo abilities.
- Ninja poison has had its primary effect removed (5% poison vulnerability per stack), despite being replaced with a much needed poison immunity stripping, this is a nerf. This was probably done as 100% extra poison damage was seen as a potential issue, but perhaps you should consider adding a 25~50% flat vulnerability back in on top of the immunity stripping.
- All actives should also work with ranged weapons, especially shurikens.
- There should be consideration for buffing all abilities with increased ki cost. At some point as a monk ki is in a state of constant overflow when in combat, it would be very thematic and feel extremely nice to be able to utilize this effectively.