U72 Early Look: Monk Revamp

[Monkey_Archer]

This whole system could've been mitigated by doing a similar alchemist style by mixing two elements and calling it a finishing move and kept them entirely. Oh you want Fire Dark Fire? Now you only need Fire and Dark.

Exactly. 2 button finishers would solve literally every problem identified in the OP and preserve the flavour of monk play.

 

[Shear-buckler]

I for one am very happy that the combo and finisher system is going away. We have more than enough buttons to press without it.

 

[Mokune]

There is a lot to unpack with these changes. So much so that I could really only form an opinion after playing it live.

Monk has been my first favorite class to play from the start in 2009.

I have weathered changes to the game as have we all.

Monk is currently fun to play despite years of change.

For the most part Shining Star finisher was one of THE coolest and slick finishing moves.

I'd like to see it as an auto-grant @ level 20 monk on a cooldown modified by the higher of Wis, Dex or Str + Stunning bonuses.

I would hate to see it locked behind points in an Enhancement tree. That'd be awful...

 

[SpardaX]

My favourite version so far has been woq's suggestion, being that sneaking while shadow veil is active gives you ki drain but also makes you float and no longer detectable via tremor sense.
I like the idea that shadow veil let's you hide so well you can even hide from death (let me stealth by reapers)

Float sneaking to get around trem sense might be cool.
But to me, that just sounds like one of those abilities that ends up being too hard to actually program, gets released and then never works.
Like Shadowdancer's "You dont trigger pressure plates or bear traps" which at least last time I checked, didn't work.
But definitely a cool idea in theory.

 

[ACJ97F]

Below is an early plan and subject to change:

Monk Combos and Finishing Moves

The Combo and Finishing Move system in the Monk class has had issues for a long time. Some of the issues we identified were:

• The combo builders themselves are not especially strong.
• Combo-building is clunky due to cooldowns.
• The combo system is easily interrupted by common actions, resetting your combo.

As we looked into adjusting this system we encountered the following:

• Strengthening combo builders makes the Monk disproportionately powerful across all level ranges, especially as there is no cost (feat slots, action points) in gaining them - Monks get these and their trees and their bonus feats.
• The cooldowns on the builders are structurally important to make sure the system functions as intended, and it is nearly impossible to reduce that cooldown without creating additional issues.
• On our code side, the combo system relies on an opt-out designation for actions to break your combo, meaning that to make the combo system more flexible would require individually tagging hundreds-to-thousands of individual actions as "this doesn't break a combo", or rebuilding the combo system from scratch.

We have instead decided to explore a more comprehensive rebalance of the Monk! So, we're removing the Combo system and putting most of the finishers into the Monk class Enhancement Trees. Let's take a look!

Overall Monk Class Changes

1. The elemental combo builder attacks granted at level 1 and with Adept/Master/Grandmaster of Forms are removed. (You still gain the Stances as before).
2. The Monk Finishing Move feat is removed.
3. The Shining Star feat is removed. (We're considering how to work this back in - let us know where you'd like to see it.)
4. You still select Light or Dark path at Monk Level 3, but they are no longer attacks - Instead, they influence multiselectors in the Monk trees.
5. Quivering Palm's DC now uses Strength if it is highest (highest of Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom Modifier)
6. Stunning Fist can now be used with any Melee Weapon as long as you are Centered.
   1. Stunning Fist's DC now uses the highest of Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom.

Players already know "subject to change" usually means someone's already finished. If monks lose Grasp the Earth Dragon
and similar buffs because combos are gone, or any of the curative spells, you're going to see more people taking a vacation.

That's not even counting the ones that will bail with the Step of the Wind nerf. Remember the last class "change"? Players do.

 

[AMess]

i've never been a fan of finishing moves b/c they were to clunky/laggy & the payoff was in unique circumstances. So this homogenization of monk is interesting to me, however I've had stuff I loved that got gutted in DDO so I have empathy for those feeling the loss.

Monk was always special and these changes make it regular at best, and lowest tier at worst. What benefit does the monk get for being in pajamas with these changes? The cost of losing MRR is not balanced.

@SteelStar Folks will probably accept these changes if you can figure out how to make Monk special/unique/exciting...lots of good ideas in this thread, looking forward to the next look for this revamp.

 

[Xeang]

It seems like shintao will just be objectively better as a kukri build with T3/T4/T5 in VKF rather than a handwrap build.
Is relegating handwraps to pure flavour and bugged iconics a deliberate choice?

Ditto -- Handwraps or 'no weapons' is the more than just the overall unique flavor of monk -- it is a primary core identity of the whole class. Now certain weapons with greater crit ranges and other benefits will make handwraps only flavor. Handwrap monks should receive some stacking benefit especially in the Shintao Tree. But if not in that tree then restore the original .05 W Every 4 levels for Handwrap users.

 

[saekee]

That's an interesting thought with the opportunity cost of not using other stances; will talk about it with the team.

Wind stance is weak only if a player already has doublestrike at cap. By the time power creep takes over at the eventual cap of 40, that means doublestrike buffs will continue to climb on standard gear (competence will be probably 18-20/insighful at 10/profane at 4-5) plus all the destiny buffs. By then wind stance may appear redundant.
Until then it is the best by far. IF you do not want to deal with this issue in the future, then yeah, adding MRR cap to it is interesting. It would make sense with the theme to me, anyway; you are like the wind; water is increasing dodge cap.
Plus Psychoblonde suggested it +++

This is why some multi selector of Shadow double might be interesting. 50% doublestrike is awesome in heroics, a bit overkill at cap. Maybe a multi where you get a fixed 15% DS along with 15 melee power vs 50% DS. Also shadow double should give melee power in its burst period. There is not enough melee power in the tree.

Honestly I would make Shadow Double the signature strike of the ninja along with Touch of death: Make it add 25% doublestrike, 50 melee power, 5d6 sneak for its short 10 second burst.
Core change for level 18: Shadow double also now temporarily adds +1 crit multiplier and range.


In short, you emerge from the shadows and go ape.


Otherwise I am struggling with these changes; I don’t like homogenyzation and this feels like that. As I whined elsewhere, buff shortswords and kamas to 15-20/3 in the tree so people use these weapons outside 3 bard. (Please walk along with your head bowed and shoulder scraping the wall at the reality of 3 bard outdoing 20 ninja with kamas ALONE). And add chains as I pushed for elsewhere; tie it to kamas if you need idc.

 

[Phoenicis]

Ditto -- Handwraps or 'no weapons' is the more than just the overall unique flavor of monk -- it is a primary core identity of the whole class. Now certain weapons with greater crit ranges and other benefits will make handwraps only flavor. Handwrap monks should receive some stacking benefit especially in the Shintao Tree. But if not in that tree then restore the original .05 W Every 4 levels for Handwrap users.

One small quibble: Handwraps originally changed dice, d6, d8, d10, d12 if memory serves. The conversion to .5w per band was one of the first nerfs.

 

[TeachrSyncletica]

I've spent a lot of time forming up a Monk guide over the years, and I still play. I'm just not able to maintain a blog, make videos or even maintain the guide at the frequency I'd prefer. Obviously these changes make the guide completely obsolete, leaving me debating if I'll make a new one. There are some things in this I don't understand and think aren't good.

Removing finishers is fine. Games such as "Neverwinter Nights" 1 and 2 didn't have them. But those characters were limited in diversity as pugilists. What concerns me is how there's virtually NOTHING beneficial in using the Ninja Spy here., a few important Shintao abilities are gone, and Mystics are (as usual) confusing as to theme.

Let me go through things I don't see as good with suggestions.

1. Philosophies don't mean much now, but swapping dark stuff between Shintao, Mystic and Ninja is confusing. While making a Shintao with dark ki attacks is fine, their application shouldn't steal from the Ninja Spy tree. Make up some new dark attacks for Shintao Tier 4 "Greater Hand of Harm" and put the blinding/nauseating move back with the Ninja. This move was as bad as when "Everything Is Nothing" was moved to epic Bard trees from Grandmaster of Flowers (which itself was made worthless for Monks in version 2 until relatively recently).
2. As with blinding and nauseating, paralyzing was a critical Ninja move. It's missing and should be a new Ninja Spy T2 or T3 attack, with 12 second cooldown. The cooldowns reflect the fastest speed one could activate a finisher.
3. Are Shintaos still able to tank? Then Ki Shout should return. It could be the T1 core with all the other T1 abilities. Without Ki Shout you leave the Shintao unable to hold aggro, as trying to cross-class Intimidate is just plain prohibitive.
4. Make Shining Star a level 18 granted feat. It's a crowd-control ability that's very helpful at Heroic endgame.
5. No shuriken enhancements? Ninja Spies have been used as starthrowers for a long time now. Create a multiselector attack that, with a melee or ranged weapon, hits all within a certain range for dark ki damage, with a small chance of 6-10 second paralysis (WIS DC). This could be the Ninja paralysis move that's missing as noted in #2.
6. Flash Bang's purpose is inverted. A Shintao needn't use FB as they have Stunning Fist. Ninjas couldn't stun with melee weapons, so FB was available. For Ninja Spy Tier 4, Flash Bang should be the dark path option; reverse it from what is shown here.
7. No Sting of the Ninja? That means a serious DoT nerf for Ninja Spy. Please return it if it was removed. It was a punishing counter against divine attackers' Divine Punishment, or high HP bosses, with DoT effects, and worked on melee or ranged. Removing Sting also give starthrowers one less ability to add damage.
8. Henshin Mystic now gets Blur only, and Shintao loses its own, with Mystic Tier 3. That's a mistake as both need this defensive ability.
9. While I love the Dark Kata (encase in ice) ability, it doesn't fit the Fire-based theme of the Mystic, either. Make Blur an optional Feat for any Monk to do for a party. Give Mystic here, perhaps, a Fire Kata: Immolation DoT for 6-12 seconds. Ninja Spy would be great with the ice attack. Same thoughts for the ice Kata of Tier 4, only with fire and longer.
10. No reason to have Void Strike reserved only for Mystics now. Long ago, all Monks had it before the Enhancement trees. Make it an optional Feat again for all Monks and add something that benefits Mystic attacks, especially with quarterstaves, for use for T5.

There's a great opportunity here to align the Philosophies more to what the "Avatar: The Last Airbender" did for elemental attacks. Certain philosophies combined with elemental attacks can deal unique and helpful effects to heal, harm, control, shield and obliterate. Keep to your own worldbuilding for DDO Monks: Dark ki harms, light ki heals or supports, and the Mystic is a wizard to both philosophies. Honestly, a Shintao with Dark abilities is a weird as Ninja with Light abilities.

Are Philosophies relevant now if there are no finishers?

 

[Kyrr]

i've never been a fan of finishing moves b/c they were to clunky/laggy & the payoff was in unique circumstances. So this homogenization of monk is interesting to me, however I've had stuff I loved that got gutted in DDO so I have empathy for those feeling the loss.

Monk was always special and these changes make it regular at best, and lowest tier at worst. What benefit does the monk get for being in pajamas with these changes? The cost of losing MRR is not balanced.

@SteelStar Folks will probably accept these changes if you can figure out how to make Monk special/unique/exciting...lots of good ideas in this thread, looking forward to the next look for this revamp.

The damage output goes so much higher with this change, not exponentially, but it should not be overlooked.

The problem is removing the finishers is making the class feel clunky, not having the specialties they originally gave to these monks.

 

[Venatori d' Argonnessen]

Lots of good stuff!

Slept on this and (mostly) gotten my thoughts in order!

Going in order of the original post here:

1. Combo system going away. Thank god. It was clunky and unfun to use. Looks like just about everything you could do with finishers is still doable, so Im happy.

2. Shining star says its going away, but shouldnt it just go into kata of the dark stars? The t4 in henshin is just a copy of the t3, except says star instead of ice? But Ill get into the trees in a bit

3. Making stunning fist universal feels kinda weird. Thats always been the 'wraps' ability, and the ability to keep a target locked down full time has been the cornerstone of wraps for a long time. If moving it to everything, I think it shouldnt strikethrough similar to qp just because being able to keep 3-4 mobs perma cced is very very strong. Also if making stunning fist str based, is there a reason to not just make it every stat and merge the sacred fist / monk stunning fists together?

4. Trees (oh boy, here we go)

Henshin mystic: Using weapon stats to do Elemental damage, defenses.
Is *hideously* op. Being able to sustain cauldron for all its defensively glory as well as its *major* damage boost later is very very strong. I dont think you should be able to keep it up 100% of the time. If you are reducing the cooldown in the 18 core, and getting access to cauldron earlier, I think the duration should be reduced to 15-20s.

Henshin also additionally getting stat to hit/dmg *and* trance, *and* melee power/imbue dice makes it a linchpin for just about every melee monk ever. Void strike alone also makes this t5 hands down significantly better than either of the two other trees

Shintao: Core weapon DPS, with some Positive/Negative energy.
The last 2 cores are where pretty much all the power is in this tree. Between them they are 3W (~20 dmg with wraps) and 30 melee power if you are in the t5. Id like to see this spread a bit out. Take 10 mp out of the capstone, and move 5 into each of the 12/6 cores.

I have no idea why kukan-do is getting its cooldown doubled. Its strong, but its not really all that impressive of an ability. If its considered too strong, Id much rather see the dc reduced since its a will save and nearly no fail. If its dropped to 10 + 1/2 monk level it might be in a better spot, but its hard to comment on this without knowing why the change happened besides I dont like it.

The t5 of shintao feels kinda lack luster. Its got a (now nerfed) single target cc ability that falls real short of other t5 cc abilities. Looking at you dragon's roar. A standard crit buff with a standard hp%. A self raise which is neat, but building for failure doesnt exactly feel amazing. A buff based on your stance which is +3 to hit / dmg, and additionally one of 2 more damage / dcs, 5 dodge cap, 10% off hand strike chance, 10 prr / 10% quality hp. And an ability that doesnt really work in r10s (or in general) simply because you attack so much faster than mobs attack you. Also as a dps you generally dont want to be attacked to begin with
This is very much lacking in *something* if its to live up to the design goals
I think violence begets violence should be decoupled from instinctive defense (which honestly maybe should just be removed) and reworked into something a bit different. Id suggest a flat damage bonus: +2 damage when attacked by enemies, stacks up to 5 times, lose one stack every 5s. The swashbuckler bonus to crit range when you fail to crit would be interesting though definitely too strong if you make it for all weapons.

Ninja spy: Poison, Tricks, and Stealth/Sneak.
Similar to shintao this tree feels like its missing something in the mid cores and the t5. Also ranged, but Ill get into that later. With the crit profile being moved out of the 18 core, it feels really mediocre. Since this is the sneaky tree, Id like to see it get the assassin t5, measure the foe, in a reduced version. 4 melee/ranged power, 1 assassinate dc per second while sneaking, up to 5 stacks, lasts 10s out of stealth. Id also like something to be added to the 12 core, 5 mp/rp seems easy / boring but /shrug
Id like to see slightly more ranged support in this tree. Id argue that making the attacks (touch of death, and shadow flurry) a multi selector with a ranged version (even if that ranged version is nerfed) would go a long way to making this feel better.

Touch of death being negative damage feels *really* weird to me. I really think it should be poison to both fit into the theme of the tree, and have better synergy with the other abilities of the tree, poison vuln, and now poison stripping. Also give it a ranged multi selector. While strong, this is easy to balance with the high ki cost which is really hard for ranged to sustain

The t5 also feels like it is missing something. Since this is the sneaky-assassin-murder tree, getting a quivering palm buff seems fun / themeatic. Theres a couple ways that would feel reasonable. Adding into crippling strikes either qp cooldown is reduced by 33% (6s - 4s) or qp now additionally affects Undead, Plants, Constructs, and Oozes, who would normally be immune to such effects.

Thanks for the hard work, and sorry about the wall!
Cheers!

 

[Havocthedemon1]

The damage output goes so much higher with this change, not exponentially, but it should not be overlooked.

The problem is removing the finishers is making the class feel clunky, not having the specialties they originally gave to these monks.

The only damage increase I’m seeing with the proposed changes is the 10 MP in lvl 18 core

 

[Kyrr]

The only damage increase I’m seeing with the proposed changes is the 10 MP in lvl 18 core

There's different and various method for producing more melee power. It's monk and everything is streamlined, you could make multiple combinations and produce a positive number of damage dice throughout this entire change. You have to choose which tree you want to utilize as monk.

 

[Putti]

Henshin Mystic

• Tier 4:
  • Elemental Words is replaced with Mystic Kata:
    • Light Path: Kata of Deep Magic: When you use Dance of Wind, you grant you and other allies a 25% reduction in Spell Point Cost for 60 seconds.

I'm assuming Dance of Wind is Kata of Wind?
I'm also a bit confused about the multi-selectors for Dark/Light. Aren't you left with just one choice anyway because of what Philosophy you chose? I guess it's for technical reasons?

Overall I think these are some great changes! Just what I wanted for monk. It was way too restrictive before.

Please, please, please don't take away Fist of Light, though. It's such a huge part of early-monk survival and really why I fell in love with the class in the first place. If it could just be added as a selectable ability in Shintao that would be great.

 

[SteelStar]

I'm assuming Dance of Wind is Kata of Wind?
I'm also a bit confused about the multi-selectors for Dark/Light. Aren't you left with just one choice anyway because of what Philosophy you chose? I guess it's for technical reasons?

Yes - Because of your Philosophy choice, you can only take the one in each tree that matches your Philosophy.

 

[Thal]

I hope they change Alchemist and get rid of those archaic and clunky 'Reactions'. Just make each tree in Alchemist able to click a button and shift into the relevant stance, that way we don't have to fumble around casting spells and risk losing the Reaction mid combat.

 

[DBZ]

What reactions are fine as is its the heals that annoy

Just allow quiken to work on them

 

[J1NG]

So not only are all Finishers now placed into Trees, but you are also gated by Action Points AND your chosen Path (You can't pick one over the other).

Whilst now on live, we can use "attack" Finishers after "buffing" (a 0 Spell Point cost Mass Blur), in this new proposed one, we are being told that in 12 seconds (and this is only for the "short" cooldown ones), you will only be able to use three (3) such Finishers and you will be limited by investing over 33 Action Points in three different tree's before you can even do so. PLUS, you will only be able to buff OR attack, not both/mix.

Plus, if you whiff your move, you need to wait another 12 seconds before you can try again, when right now, you just rebuild or use a different Finisher in the mean time to attempt any CC.

Are we getting caster trees updated next where we gate majority if not all types of spells next? Can only mass heal in Beacon or Radiant?

Not feeling the change on the Finisher front.

J1NG

 

[Seppi Pearlsmith]

The fun part of the monk was all the button smashing (building the combos to the situation etc), felt a bit like playing an arcade fighting game...
Good or bad, like it or hate it, monks will be just fighters in pyjamas.