U72 Preview 1: Dragon Disciple Monk Archetype

[Sholekar]

Since "Stunning Fist" isn't going to become "Stunning Strike", could you add all the metamagic feats to the DD bonus feat list instead? I have a feat hole at level 6.

Is it not changing now? Or is it just not working like most everything else?

 

[QuantumFX]

Is it not changing now? Or is it just not working like most everything else?

Earlier in the design process, the devs said they wanted it to change Stunning fist:

1. Stunning Fist can now be used with any Melee Weapon as long as you are Centered.
   1. Stunning Fist's DC now uses the highest of Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom.

LINK and that note is smack dab in the middle of the wall-o-text!

 

[Anurakh]

Earlier in the design process, the devs said they wanted it to change Stunning fist:

1. Stunning Fist can now be used with any Melee Weapon as long as you are Centered.
   1. Stunning Fist's DC now uses the highest of Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom.

LINK and that note is smack dab in the middle of the wall-o-text!

And they've said it for this preview too. Look at the changes to the basic class.

 

[h46av8r]

And they've said it for this preview too. Look at the changes to the basic class.

I see the part about "Stunning Fist's DC now uses the highest of Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom" but it does not have "can now be used with any Melee Weapon as long as you are Centered" ??

 

[QuantumFX]

And they've said it for this preview too. Look at the changes to the basic class.

1. Stunning Fist's DC now uses the highest of Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom.

The DC change is there, but not my complaint about the requirement to use handwraps.

 

[Sholekar]

The DC change is there, but not my complaint about the requirement to use handwraps.

That's my point. It *appears* they are backtracking that change. For shame.

 

[Christhemiss]

this whole thing makes me confused. here are my thoughts...

Niche (what role does this fill)​

• so far it seems complete dogwater at cap. seems just worse than ek while trying to be ek and ek already struggles
• seems like a fun concept for a zoom zoom caster for leveling
• doesnt have much support for the party (outside of monk buffs in the trees and GEW)
• it doesnt get any CC (except howl of terror which will not land as the tree only supports evo/trans/conjur)
• the DCs on the class spells seems fine given they are all breath DCs but the non DD spells arent so cant hit the DCs
• is a hybrid that focuses on spell damage instead of spell support like ek
• doesnt really have any raid debuffs that a normal monk cant have

so far i fail to see the point of playing it. here are some of my suggestions to make it more viable

Treat it Like EK​

as a hybird, this class will always be compared to EK. here are some of my suggestions to fill that niche

• give the tree more spellpower. EK gets ~140 and if this tree has any less than EK it is instantly useless
• since this tree focuses less on CC and more on damage spells, this tree needs more universal critical chance. this tree needs AT A MINIMUM 12% because it is a hybrid. no exceptions
• this tree needs more imbue dice before level 18/20. at level 18/20 you get 6 of your 9 bonus imbue die. EK gets 10 imbue die before the proc, and lots of it is before level 20, so this tree should have a similar imbue die progression to EK as opposed to all at the end of herioc leveling
• id like to see another bonus feat added at level 12 as hybrids are feat starved
• there needs to be an incentive to both melee and use spell attacks. i suggest adding an ability in the tree that applies vulnerability to the element of your imbue when you hit monsters with melee attacks (the same vulnerability as the hunt or be hunted raid weapons). in addition, i would like spells to apply some kind of debuff that buffs physical damage
• as a hybrid, it is very difficult to get enough to hit. this tree needs AT A MINIMUM +10 to hit total in the tree. EK already struggles with this and this tree has it worse off
• the cooldown on the SLAs should be lower in my opinion, even with 33% reduction (or make the reduction 50%, that also works)
• the class doesnt have enough spell slots. either the SLAs need to be auto inscribed like cleric or the class needs 3 spell slots at every level
• the class does not get enough spell points to caster the various damage spells in the spellbook. this needs at least double the amount of spellpoints
• levels 1-3 are free of damage spells outside of the DD ones. please add more, such as fireball, ball lightning, acid blast, blighted breath, lightning motes, scorch, lightning bolt, and acid spray/burning hands
• the +10 mcl on spells that dont get extra CL is confusing. add extra CL somewhere in the tree
• the capstone is powerful but very long CD for the uptime. id like to see the cooldown come down and the uptime go up, probably 1.5 minute cooldown for 30 seconds uptime being appropriate imo
• as a hybrid, the DCs are going to be a problem. i like the idea of the DD slas being breath weapons, but i think every DD spell should be made to benefit from breath weapon DCs because otherwise you will not be able to land DCs
• minor nitpick, id like to see more spell crit multi somewhere
• i feel DD doesnt get enough good melee attacks that boost its power. maybe buff the slam attack to be useful?
• i would like to see howl of terror get its DC changed to highest of trans, conujur, and evo as building 2 spell DCs on a hybrid is basically impossible
• the meditation trance thing has to go. period
• the SLAs shouldnt share a cooldown imo because that emphasizes using multiple elements. if they all share a cooldown, how do you deal with enemies immune or resistant to your element? you said that DD would swap spell elements to deal with this problem but you cant if all the spells share a CD

thats all i have to say for now. to me, i actually am excited to play DD because its a zoom zoom caster and it will probably be very fun for leveling. sadly, thats probably all it will be good for (at least right now) so i will have to shelve it sadly. hopefully some of my points can be adressed to make this archetype less bad

 

[Taleisin]

2 quick items:

• Can a hybrid actually work well in DDO? I had high hopes for ES back when it was released but it simply didn’t pan out sadly.
• Can the new centered weapons enhancement get moved lower in order to use them sooner? I do wonder if the heavy picks makes sense?

Thank you and I look forward to playing this!

 

[Knowbody important]

this whole thing makes me confused. here are my thoughts...

Niche (what role does this fill)​

• so far it seems complete dogwater at cap. seems just worse than ek while trying to be ek and ek already struggles
• seems like a fun concept for a zoom zoom caster for leveling
• doesnt have much support for the party (outside of monk buffs in the trees and GEW)
• it doesnt get any CC (except howl of terror which will not land as the tree only supports evo/trans/conjur)
• the DCs on the class spells seems fine given they are all breath DCs but the non DD spells arent so cant hit the DCs
• is a hybrid that focuses on spell damage instead of spell support like ek
• doesnt really have any raid debuffs that a normal monk cant have

so far i fail to see the point of playing it. here are some of my suggestions to make it more viable

Treat it Like EK​

as a hybird, this class will always be compared to EK. here are some of my suggestions to fill that niche

• give the tree more spellpower. EK gets ~140 and if this tree has any less than EK it is instantly useless
• since this tree focuses less on CC and more on damage spells, this tree needs more universal critical chance. this tree needs AT A MINIMUM 12% because it is a hybrid. no exceptions
• this tree needs more imbue dice before level 18/20. at level 18/20 you get 6 of your 9 bonus imbue die. EK gets 10 imbue die before the proc, and lots of it is before level 20, so this tree should have a similar imbue die progression to EK as opposed to all at the end of herioc leveling
• id like to see another bonus feat added at level 12 as hybrids are feat starved
• there needs to be an incentive to both melee and use spell attacks. i suggest adding an ability in the tree that applies vulnerability to the element of your imbue when you hit monsters with melee attacks (the same vulnerability as the hunt or be hunted raid weapons). in addition, i would like spells to apply some kind of debuff that buffs physical damage
• as a hybrid, it is very difficult to get enough to hit. this tree needs AT A MINIMUM +10 to hit total in the tree. EK already struggles with this and this tree has it worse off
• the cooldown on the SLAs should be lower in my opinion, even with 33% reduction (or make the reduction 50%, that also works)
• the class doesnt have enough spell slots. either the SLAs need to be auto inscribed like cleric or the class needs 3 spell slots at every level
• the class does not get enough spell points to caster the various damage spells in the spellbook. this needs at least double the amount of spellpoints
• levels 1-3 are free of damage spells outside of the DD ones. please add more, such as fireball, ball lightning, acid blast, blighted breath, lightning motes, scorch, lightning bolt, and acid spray/burning hands
• the +10 mcl on spells that dont get extra CL is confusing. add extra CL somewhere in the tree
• the capstone is powerful but very long CD for the uptime. id like to see the cooldown come down and the uptime go up, probably 1.5 minute cooldown for 30 seconds uptime being appropriate imo
• as a hybrid, the DCs are going to be a problem. i like the idea of the DD slas being breath weapons, but i think every DD spell should be made to benefit from breath weapon DCs because otherwise you will not be able to land DCs
• minor nitpick, id like to see more spell crit multi somewhere
• i feel DD doesnt get enough good melee attacks that boost its power. maybe buff the slam attack to be useful?
• i would like to see howl of terror get its DC changed to highest of trans, conujur, and evo as building 2 spell DCs on a hybrid is basically impossible
• the meditation trance thing has to go. period
• the SLAs shouldnt share a cooldown imo because that emphasizes using multiple elements. if they all share a cooldown, how do you deal with enemies immune or resistant to your element? you said that DD would swap spell elements to deal with this problem but you cant if all the spells share a CD

thats all i have to say for now. to me, i actually am excited to play DD because its a zoom zoom caster and it will probably be very fun for leveling. sadly, thats probably all it will be good for (at least right now) so i will have to shelve it sadly. hopefully some of my points can be adressed to make this archetype less bad

So in the initial view I harped Heavily on the lack of DC's. By heroic sharn the lack of dc's are going to render the class fairly useless. I feel like this is another attempt at trying to force Pen and Paper Subclasses into DDO. Which like a lot of the archetypes is just wasted time on the devs part. Trying to force "Fun" but mechanically unsound archetypes into the game (many of them have serious problems as pure), which in turn renders them seriously unfun. In this particular case: they are hoping the player can cover an amazing wide array of stats on gear, while throwing the idea against the wall and hoping it sticks. One does not actually have to play this archetype to look at what is written and tell you how poorly it is going to perform as it stands.


While I am not offering a break down, I am just frustrated by the low level of performance of this particular archetype. The archetypes in general seem to fall into the category of: If its not broken? Why are we trying to fix it?? Seems in most instances your better off just playing the main class and skipping the archetype.

 

[Phaedra]

Hello, everyone!

20th

350

2

2

2

2

This seems bad when Paladins and Rangers get 4/level. Is this because there are offensive spells?

• Why only two spell slots per level / four spell levels?
  • While there's likely enough tools in the Dragon Disciple's toolbox to rely heavily on casting, given all the other Monk abilities and access we didn't want to put them on par with core Spellcasters that don't have those tools. Additionally, they gain quite a bit of power out of the SLA grants in the trees. Yes, they're going to have trouble dealing with Liches using their spells - Thankfully, they have access to their fists. And other ki weapons.
• Can we add (insert existing spell here) to the spell list?
  • Potentially. In looking for spells for this list, we're primarily considering:
    • Spells that have Draconic themes (fear, claws, wind, breath)
    • Spells that can support the hybrid nature of Dragon Disciple

Since they lost Henshin, can they also get the Ki spells from Sacred Fist? (Also MP scaling for draconic spells like SF gets for Ki spells?)

• What happened to Dragon's Divinity from the First Look?
  • It just didn't work on a tech level, and we decided the balance implications would have taken Dragon Disciple in a different direction than we'd ultimately intended it for.

Aww, I guess we won't have centered DD/Inquis. (this was probably the right choice)

• Lesser Draconic Burst: Fire: Centered Ki Breath Attack: You channel ki to bring forth your Dragon's element in a small burst, hitting all enemies very close to you. Deals 1d6+1 Fire damage per caster level (max 10d6+5 at caster level 10). A successful reflex save reduces damage by half. 2 SP, 5 second cooldown.

How did this typo make it through 3 rounds of revision? 1d6+1 MCL10 is 10d6+10 at CL10

 

[azrael4h]

This seems bad when Paladins and Rangers get 4/level. Is this because there are offensive spells?

Honestly, I imagine that Shield, Haste, and Displacement are pretty much always taking slots at those respective levels. DW and FoM probably at 4, though you can get both from clickies, perma pots, or items more easily. Given the low DCs, lower spell power, and lack of spell crits, I honestly don't see the offensive spell side being used much, outside the lesser burst for vulnerability on bosses. DDO is long since past flavorful builds in favor of powergaming. So this is pretty much going to be a Monk that has a couple elemental-damage 'cleaves' sort of similar to Warlock ES, and some self-buffing with some serious halitosis. At the expense of some of the standard Monk stuff like Quivering Palm and Henshin.

Past life will be nice for Sorcs or other nukers, I guess, but nothing here makes me want to run one next life, any more than the Monk changes in general make me want to suffer another Monk life.

 

[Pretty Good Old One]

One crazy thought for DD, if it weak at Cap. Go all in on hybrid. Give a level 18 or 20 core ability that does something like:
All spell criticals scale with SP and 20% MP/RP. This includes DD imbue and SLAs.
All weapon criticals scale with MP/RP and 5% SP or DD imbue in use.

Percentages could be lowered if needed. Could be an action boost. Probably OP, but having a benefit from having to build for both MP and SP would be fun.

 

[Phaedra]

One crazy thought for DD, if it weak at Cap. Go all in on hybrid. Give a level 18 or 20 core ability that does something like:
All spell criticals scale with SP and 20% MP/RP. This includes DD imbue and SLAs.
All weapon criticals scale with MP/RP and 5% SP or DD imbue in use.

Percentages could be lowered if needed. Could be an action boost. Probably OP, but having a benefit from having to build for both MP and SP would be fun.

I don't think they could do partial scaling, but just having them scale off of MP (or even higher of MP/RP) would be better than scaling off of spellpower, especially when they're otherwise expected to gear for 2 or more spellpowers (lacking immunity stripping)

 

[SpardaX]

Make it:

You were a Dragon Disciple in a past life. Others find you strangely compelling when you speak or take to the battlefield. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 Damage and -1 to the Spell Point cost of the Maximize Metamagic. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

Melee got some love. Dragonlord's PL is +1 to Melee damage and +1 Breath DCs.

The Monk past life is +1 overall damage. And. Nothing.

So clearly "+1 damage" is considered strong enough on it's own to be a PL. Other past lives that involve damage, have a qualifier. Ranger's +2 to only Bow and Crossbow damage and DL's +1 to only Melee damage. The only thing we don't have now yet is Thrown damage.

 

[SpardaX]

Since "Stunning Fist" isn't going to become "Stunning Strike", could you add all the metamagic feats to the DD bonus feat list instead? I have a feat hole at level 6.

It's in the original post for this why those feats were taken out of the list. (Max, Emp, and Quicken were in the original preview.) So they probably aren't getting added back in again

 

[Rull]

Make it:

You were a Dragon Disciple in a past life. Others find you strangely compelling when you speak or take to the battlefield. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 Damage and -1 to the Spell Point cost of the Maximize Metamagic. This feat can be stacked up to three times.


you added so many spell power pl and universal power so give melee some love

Regular monk PL already gives "+1 damage.". Making this variant give "+1 damage AND -1 maximize cost" would be silly.

You could do "+1 melee power and -1 maximize cost". but I think "+1 attack and -1 maximize cost" is just fine.

edit: SpardaX just pointed out the exact same thing

 

[KylerrTheMajty]

Melee got some love. Dragonlord's PL is +1 to Melee damage and +1 Breath DCs.

The Monk past life is +1 overall damage. And. Nothing.

So clearly "+1 damage" is considered strong enough on it's own to be a PL. Other past lives that involve damage, have a qualifier. Ranger's +2 to only Bow and Crossbow damage and DL's +1 to only Melee damage. The only thing we don't have now yet is Thrown damage.

Chasomancer 9 universal
Wild mage 9 universal
Alcolite of skin 9 fire
Stormsinger 9 lightning 9 sonic

That's just what I remember probably are more and that's only few new
Except dragon lord what was last melee past life?
Dark hunter? That is less then meh

You said monk pl give 1 DMG per life check when monk was added

 

[Genesis1912]

I know it says that the spells will all use spell points. But it also says that "some" of the SLA's will use ki. If i'm not mistaken i think all the SLA's use ki, not just some. Hopefully that will be remedied. Unless i'm just reading too far into that "some".

 

[Lotoc]

so this is just a bit of a niche suggestion
DD is clearly intended to have very low max spell points which likely won't mesh well with heavy casting.
A version of meditation for DD which regenerates spellpoints by burning Ki might actually be worth using if implemented.

 

[saekee]

there seems to be so many synergies with Henshin; why not eliminate ninja spy with this tree?