U72 Preview 1: Monk Class Changes

[Edrein]

I am not a fan that the Devs are making the trance dependent on ki. If they give it 5 charges like every other trance and it cost 50 ki to renew charges, well that is ok then. But I fear there are no charges initially and monks who are low level will fight to have that much ki prior to fights and high level monks have many other things to spend ki on. No other class or tree has to "provide" something for their first five charges.

I see your logic, but charges will hurt the overall play experience. I don't think there's a singular ability in the game where charges improve the 'fun' factor of gameplay. Cooldown timers while boring, never outright prevent you from using something. Charges on the other hand are one and done assuming there is no recharge mechanic outside of using a shrine.

For the sake of 'fun' it would be better to leave the trance reliant on monks building ki (something they will likely have in abundance with this revamp given the lack of uses for ki) and having to 'go without' for a small portion of a quest time, particularly at lower levels, than to tie another gameplay system into charges and forcing folks to play the use-it-or-lose it shrine game.

 

[Xeang]

KtA not have any charges, Divine Will/Might too, it's direct analog and it's why it must be same way - best way, not so silly as HW trance work.

I stand corrected! thanks.

edit: Perhaps though after looking at those which take less sp than ki to activate they should lower the ki cost to like 30. Spell points are generally a much larger pool to draw from as well.

 

[SpardaX]

yes or autogrant it in the tree.

Ok. I just want you to know, that it is. It's been in the martial arts feat list for a while. You still need to meet the prerequisites though, which means you need a +4 BaB. So if you're a pure monk, it's only going to show up with the level 6 feat. But if you, for example, take 4 levels of fighter (Bab 4), and then take your 5th level, as level 1 monk, you should be able to select Swords to Plowshares with your feat Monk there.

 

[Sholekar]

I stand corrected! thanks.

edit: Perhaps though after looking at those which take less sp than ki to activate they should lower the ki cost to like 30. Spell points are generally a much larger pool to draw from as well.

Ki is abundant very early on. Just hit things and have concentration.

 

[pame12]

• Negotiator is removed, and replaced with Exemplar (formerly in Shintao). Exemplar's +10% Threat Generation is removed, and replaced with +5/10/15% Attack Speed with Quarterstaves. Antirequisite: Rogue Acrobatics

I think there should be some application to all other weapons also. Maybe once you hit rank 3, it gives +5% increased attack speed to centered weapons as well.

Also, I see no + tumble charges or whatever for ninja spy, what? Why? They're very acrobatic no? Needs at least a +1 tumble charge in there somewhere.

 

[Haphazard]

I think this monk pass and new archetype is pretty exciting. There are some interesting attempts to bring something a little different to DD and make monk in general more accessible.

Combos/Finishers
Obviously there will be people that don't like this going. It's natural, when you've invested time in something to master it, especially when other people aren't, that you'll be put out if it's taken away. But let's face it, they weren't very friendly. They were clunky and sometimes janky and totally opaque to new players.

As the game evolves it's good to review old systems and update them where possible. New players are necessarily the target audience for this pass but it's an opportunity to make monk a viable option for new players and those that have been out off playing them much, which I suspect is quite a large chunk of the player-base.

Enhancement Tree Overhaul
I'm a big fan of the fun coming earlier. Monk was always pretty back-ended, partly I think down to issues around dipping/multiclassing but the Devs have done a fairly comprehensive job of tidying up the 'power dips' and pure class builds are much more appealing these days.

It's a Process
I know some people don't feel like they're being listened to but this whole thing is a process and the Devs ARE getting feedback here and acting on it. Not everything of course but how would you ever do that with lots of different opinions and views, often at odds with one another.

It won't even all be sorted for u72 but we know that - it always gets fine tuned (I can see this will be a trigger for some people!) over time.

Hap

 

[J1NG]

Combos/Finishers
Obviously there will be people that don't like this going. It's natural, when you've invested time in something to master it, especially when other people aren't, that you'll be put out if it's taken away. But let's face it, they weren't very friendly. They were clunky and sometimes janky and totally opaque to new players.

As the game evolves it's good to review old systems and update them where possible. New players are necessarily the target audience for this pass but it's an opportunity to make monk a viable option for new players and those that have been out off playing them much, which I suspect is quite a large chunk of the player-base.

This is wrong. Because the issue is not the Combo system being removed (although the loss of the extra damage that actually scales for your available Ki is definitely a loss). It's the Finishers being gated behind Tree's, not only that, but there is a forced upgrade path as well instead of it being selectable.

We players all know why Mass Blur will NEVER be picked if it was an option if it was made possible. Yet we are being given the same thing back.

We also know the Devs have gone on and said they are super busy. Gee, I wonder why? Is that why everything was just a reshuffle and not really a revamp and upgrade? (Where it is needed? As in, the Finishers themselves?)

Enhancement Tree Overhaul
I'm a big fan of the fun coming earlier. Monk was always pretty back-ended, partly I think down to issues around dipping/multiclassing but the Devs have done a fairly comprehensive job of tidying up the 'power dips' and pure class builds are much more appealing these days.

Slightly agree. Pure Monks are getting more out of the Trees again now, but there's a lot of questionable design choices also; primarily the Finishers and the Attack/Damage lines taking up space in the Trees when the Attack/Damage could be in the Cores (and wouldn't really change much; you need to invest into each Tree and they are exlusive from each other anyway, so it's not like they stack) and of course the removal of stuff as well (primarily only one source of Ki Monk Strikes now found only in Shintao so you only ever have one of these).

If we remove these extras, the trees are clearly barren. (Again, because it's less a revamp and more of a reshuffle and padding so they have less work to do in the time remaining and trying to sell it to us there was no better option).

It's a Process
I know some people don't feel like they're being listened to but this whole thing is a process and the Devs ARE getting feedback here and acting on it. Not everything of course but how would you ever do that with lots of different opinions and views, often at odds with one another.

It won't even all be sorted for u72 but we know that - it always gets fine tuned (I can see this will be a trigger for some people!) over time.

Hap

And we all know how the "process" works don't we?

See you in 10 years when they try to "revamp" this again...

J1NG

 

[Defunct]

You know it's bad when J1NG has been so vocal about it

 

[pame12]

I'm surprised they have barely listened to a vet like J1NG.
Aren't they suppposed to listen to vets more than the casuals?

 

[Haphazard]

This is wrong. Because the issue is not the Combo system being removed (although the loss of the extra damage that actually scales for your available Ki is definitely a loss). It's the Finishers being gated behind Tree's, not only that, but there is a forced upgrade path as well instead of it being selectable.

We players all know why Mass Blur will NEVER be picked if it was an option if it was made possible. Yet we are being given the same thing back.

We also know the Devs have gone on and said they are super busy. Gee, I wonder why? Is that why everything was just a reshuffle and not really a revamp and upgrade? (Where it is needed? As in, the Finishers themselves?)



Slightly agree. Pure Monks are getting more out of the Trees again now, but there's a lot of questionable design choices also; primarily the Finishers and the Attack/Damage lines taking up space in the Trees when the Attack/Damage could be in the Cores (and wouldn't really change much; you need to invest into each Tree and they are exlusive from each other anyway, so it's not like they stack) and of course the removal of stuff as well (primarily only one source of Ki Monk Strikes now found only in Shintao so you only ever have one of these).

If we remove these extras, the trees are clearly barren. (Again, because it's less a revamp and more of a reshuffle and padding so they have less work to do in the time remaining and trying to sell it to us there was no better option).



And we all know how the "process" works don't we?

See you in 10 years when they try to "revamp" this again...

J1NG

I think the power issue will get resolved. I hope it will.

I can see the point about the finishers being in trees taking up space/EPs but it still holds that the old system was clunky and opaque. If the scaling/value issue can be resolved that provides similar flexibility then I think it will be better overall.

On process well it's a small team working on a big game and I think they try to balance the various factors affecting design choices relatively well most of the time - accessibility, balance, group play, multiclassing, community, business case etc.

Be nice to think the game will still be around in 10 years. Nearly two decades already is quite an achievement.

Hap

 

[Mindos]

See you in 10 years when they try to "revamp" this again...

Oh! An optimist!

 

[Dandonk]

I'm surprised they have barely listened to a vet like J1NG.
Aren't they suppposed to listen to vets more than the casuals?

Is it a coincidence that the listen skill is nearly useless in DDO?

More seriously, for a long time now when they post these things, they've already made their minds up and done most of the preliminary work. So it's not going to get fundamentally changed at this point, but some numbers might get altered and so on.

But WYSIWYG... if it's on lama preview, that's what we get, to a very large degree.

 

[Xeang]

Ki is abundant very early on. Just hit things and have concentration.

Perhaps ki can be grown early on at a fair rate with the Henshin Core 2 upgrade to ki they are installing, but my point was that it usually starts way less than 50 as a pool so your first fights you cannot click on the trance. Spell points generally start with a much greater pool for casters and they can immediately start their trance in Warpriest for example. Also It only costs around 20 spell points to use it in that tree if I remember.

I would suggest a 10/20/30 ki increase along with the duration of the trance.

 

[pame12]

More seriously, for a long time now when they post these things, they've already made their minds up and done most of the preliminary work. So it's not going to get fundamentally changed at this point, but some numbers might get altered and so on.

But WYSIWYG... if it's on lama preview, that's what we get, to a very large degree.

Yeah but why not contact someone like J1NG way before and then just tell him "we don't have a lot of resource, we want to do minimum work, what is your recomendation?"
Then he can just give them a basic list, put this there, add a bit more here, fix this thing that's been broken for 10 years etc...
Then the community at least wouldn't be so upset, they'd just be upset at the fact that no major rework was being done.

Instead we have to be upset at no major work being done, and the devs having to go back and forth between 40+ pages of people complaining to figure out *** we even want.

 

[Jonbir]

Seems like these changes, like most previous updates, streamline the class more and more into being the same as other classes and lose its uniqueness, all through its power-creeping journey.
Over time all classes became merely different skins of the same thing, and at this point there's barely any unique feature left for any of the classes.

I know it's quite late to complain at this point of the game, but I believe there was so much more room for creativity. Everything mostly feels... rushed. More grind, less wonder and adventure.
I'm not angry, really, just kind of.... despaired.

 

[Dandonk]

Yeah but why not contact someone like J1NG way before and then just tell him "we don't have a lot of resource, we want to do minimum work, what is your recomendation?"
Then he can just give them a basic list, put this there, add a bit more here, fix this thing that's been broken for 10 years etc...
Then the community at least wouldn't be so upset, they'd just be upset at the fact that no major rework was being done.

Instead we have to be upset at no major work being done, and the devs having to go back and forth between 40+ pages of people complaining to figure out *** we even want.

I don't disagree. I would actually think it would be a great idea to try and get someone like him at least on the Players' Council, so he could get in a little earlier in the design process.

 

[Sol]

Removing the combo system feels like a waste of a very cool concept that made Monk stick out as a class. Sure, it was horribly outdated and didn't fit well into today's quick gameplay, but surely we can do better then scrap it entirely? Now it's just another melee class with generic buttons. Honestly, line one was immediately disappointing to see. I get that it's be super high effort to bring it to the modern DDO but... yeah.

EDIT: Some people are saying that it's a difficult system to master and not new player friendly, but if there is one thing that I've learned playing games for the past 20 years it's that the systems that are hard but engaging and powerful to master is what keeps people playing games long term. Combos weren't hard outside of being annoying to look up in game imo, and with a proper reworking of the finisher payoffs it could have been more than rewarding to engage with the system.

Quivering Palm DC is a little lame, too. Maybe this is just the nostalgic part of me speaking but Quivering Palm being a payoff for going wisdom based was cool and build defining, but now it's just... another generic stun. Same with Stunning fist. It's probably a fine change but bleh.

A minor nitpick, but maybe avoid "ninja magic" with Flash Bang's description. Just say Ninja Ki.

It feels weird seeing monk lose some of it's bonuses to handwraps in favor of generic improvements to any weapon you are centered with. It feels like Monk should get bonuses to handwraps specifically for the Shintao Studies line of enhancements. Something like "+1 to attack and damage while centered. +2 additional damage with Handwraps". Ninjutsu could read "+1 to attack and damage while centered, +2 additional damage with kamas, short swords, and shuriken". Henshin Staff Training could read "+1 to attack and damage while centered, +2 additional damage with quarterstaves". The fact that there is an Antireq to attack lines of all things feels really strange.

Something just feels off with these trees. Monk feels like it's losing it's identity a bit in favor of generalization. I'd rather have a more flavorful and difficult to use class with combos and finishers with an identity beyond a name. Dare I say it, I'd rather have a worse class with a distinct identity that people need to engage in to minmax than a better one that's stronger but more generic.

 

[Eme]

Something just feels off with these trees.

it feels like the whole class has become just a generic universal tree

 

[Svirfneblin]

Also, I see no + tumble charges or whatever for ninja spy, what? Why? They're very acrobatic no? Needs at least a +1 tumble charge in there somewhere.

Agreed, those Ninjas are always Tumbling.

Also, no imbue dice in the Ninja tree. How are you a master poisoner with One Imbue Die in your tree (from the Imbue itself ). And no Immunity Strip, so sad !!!

Can you add more Poison Vulnerability % to the Cores at least ?

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Can you add more Poison Vulnerability % to the Cores at least ?

Useless without immunity strip, and other Poison imbue have better scaling. Sting of the Ninja is DoA, as already say before. Elemental Soul just better.