U72 Preview 2: Monk Class Changes

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droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
don't know how you get so little from it to ask for that huge nerf, when I use it im critting so often with it and with such a huge crit range it feels like im almost permanently at 12-20 crit range.
It's awesome as it is.
Maybe because I solo a lot, so always have many mobs on me with a high dodge so they're missing often?

Well I solo a lot too, but a couple reasons...

- Even as a soloist, you want to reduce the number of mobs simultaneously trying to hit you, even if you have high avoidance. If you get into push soloing, it'll be less valuable because taking on 8 mobs at once will be suicidal.
- It loses value when you gain power in other areas, which is bad design: higher base crit range reduces the value, because you reset more often. Using CC decreases the value, because CC mobs dont miss you. It also loses value in group play, if you're not actively tanking
- Monsters dont attack us nearly as fast as we attack them. We may hit them 8 times, with TWF, for every 1 time they attack us. With a fairly standard 25% crit rate, that means on average you're critting twice for every one attack they make. That means it takes 2 mobs attacking you to just keep you at +1 range on average, and thats assuming they miss you 100%.
- Doesnt give any benefit against caster mobs

My model would give about +1 on average, and +2 in protracted fights. Its hardly a nerf.
 

Eme

Well-known member
Well I solo a lot too, but a couple reasons...

- Even as a soloist, you want to reduce the number of mobs simultaneously trying to hit you, even if you have high avoidance. If you get into push soloing, it'll be less valuable because taking on 8 mobs at once will be suicidal.
- It loses value when you gain power in other areas, which is bad design: higher base crit range reduces the value, because you reset more often. Using CC decreases the value, because CC mobs dont miss you. It also loses value in group play, if you're not actively tanking
- Monsters dont attack us nearly as fast as we attack them. We may hit them 8 times, with TWF, for every 1 time they attack us. With a fairly standard 25% crit rate, that means on average you're critting twice for every one attack they make. That means it takes 2 mobs attacking you to just keep you at +1 range on average, and thats assuming they miss you 100%.
- Doesnt give any benefit against caster mobs

My model would give about +1 on average, and +2 in protracted fights. Its hardly a nerf.
your suggestion is a HUGE nerf.
I ran so many recorded tests with every single crit range feat & enhancement that monk has to test how much each one affected things by itself and in combination with others and in combinations with different destiny attacks, to know that in the long run your suggestion comes out far, far worse.
 
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Urklore

Well-known member
Can anyone confirm if the Ki Strike class abilities still only work for unarmed or handwraps?
 

J1NG

I can do things others can't...
Can anyone confirm if the Ki Strike class abilities still only work for unarmed or handwraps?

Can confirm they don't work for ranged, and the Ki +2 from Henshin Core 2 (Ki Bolt) also does not work for ranged.

No issues encountered with melee weapons (unarmed and standard Ki weaponry).

J1NG
 

unknown32

Well-known member
Sorry if this was asked previously; but is porous soul in Henshin mystic suppose to be acid only? We cannot select from the other element types (electric, fire, cold)? I think this would make more sense given that we have 4 different imbues for each element now; why is this attack only acid specifically, and not a multiselector?
 

unknown32

Well-known member
Sorry if this was asked previously; but is porous soul in Henshin mystic suppose to be acid only? We cannot select from the other element types (electric, fire, cold)? I think this would make more sense given that we have 4 different imbues for each element now; why is this attack only acid specifically, and not a multiselector?
NVM on this; I see the other element words in the feat list; just weird that the one for acid is named differently from the others. Thanks!
 

Phaedra

Well-known member
Extra action boosts 1 ap / rank
Sneak dice 1 ap / rank
I'd like to see costs in these trees come down too, but these enhancements are 2AP in every tree that offers them, with the exception of the sneak dice from half-elf dilettante: rogue. But then you have to be a half-elf.

So extra Action Boosts and sneak dice would reasonably have to be lowered to 1AP in all trees.
 

droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
your suggestion is a HUGE nerf.
I ran so many recorded tests with every single crit range feat & enhancement that monk has to test how much each one affected things by itself and in combination with others and in combinations with different destiny attacks, to know that in the long run your suggestion comes out far, far worse.

Well that's great and all, but the math maths. If it feels fun to you, then keep using it. But its mathematically one of the worst T5 crit enhancements, and changing it isnt a nerf.
 

SpardaX

Well-known member
I'm really looking forward to +2 Ki on-hit from this rework. Means I won't be locked into Water Stance + T2 Henshin (or Fisto won't be locked into GMoF for that split). Means I can afford to spend Ki regularly instead of running out in extended fights. Means I can use the Shintao Hands of Mercy (which costs 35 ki less than LLL finisher does, BTW). The new Shadow Double. Heck, even the Wis trance if I were to run some weird split (or for people without Horizon Walker). Means I can use Abundant Step more than occasionally while still running 10k on CD.

I'm playing a Shurimonk now because I wanted to be on ranged DPS (guild is running push raids this month) and wanted to try it before the Monk rework. And I'm pretty excited for this rework personally.
I dont want to be the bearer of bad news here, but
You are aware that they couldn't get the +2 Ki on Ranged/Shuriken attack to work, yea?
 

Phaedra

Well-known member
Given that we can't get the +2 ki on shuri hit would it be possible to get a smaller version of the GMoF KI clicky as like a multi selector? Then if you ever get it working remove the clicky.
Also acceptable: +1 Passive Ki gen
 

Eme

Well-known member
Well that's great and all, but the math maths. If it feels fun to you, then keep using it. But its mathematically one of the worst T5 crit enhancements, and changing it isnt a nerf.
it really doesn't. THe video timelines of damage done ( vs varying types of mobs and hundreds of different feat/enhancement combos/strikes) , when lined up against each other in a timeline edited to the frame, show a huge difference, and that it actually comes out as one of the best enhancements there is, and in so many situations. Your maths falls apart when you take into account the huge hits where bigger crit ranges shine. ALthough, admittedly this was done with a very well geared monk with all relevant pasts etc, so maxing out on near everything possible.
 
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Macrochaos

New member
After spending some time on Lammania, as a long time Monk enjoyer here are my thoughts and suggestions to preserve the monk tool kit within the new framework.

First off.
To adress the most common complaint of losing all the finishers that were baked into the base class noe offered at the cost of AP:
If the goal is to make monk less obtuse to non dedicated monk players then it succeded at the cost of a non-insignificant portion of monk's feel that sets it apart from the other classes, but it needs not remain like that. Much of the rework seems aimed at lowering the barrier of entry to playing monk so in keeping with that it makes sense to shift SOME of those tools into the class trees.

I belive that the base class should have the 4 elemental finishers present as ki attacks/spell granted at lvl1.
And the basic functinality of Fists of Light/Darkness producing the healing shield / shaken effect should remain as they are on live.
that said, to remain within this new framework while recovering the old tools not currently present here are my suggestions and tweaks.

Firstly
GrandMaster of Flowers Core 4:
To retain the flexibility of alternate path builder and provide a choice of doubleing down

Multi selector -
Path of Perfect Balance - Dark. For light monks.
Path of Perfect Balance - Light. For dark monks.
Path of Unbending Coviction: Using any of the feats Stunning Fist, Stunning Blow or Whirlwind Attack causes a burst from your target striking nearby enemies for 1d10 Good/Evil damage per character level. Scales with 200% Melee Power or Ranged Power.
Regardless of your choice you get: +3% Dodge bypass, +10 MMR cap.

The Paths of Perfect Balance options would allow one to choose the other enhancements in the monk trees and provide a third choice for non monk GMoFs, the choices in the heroic enhancements would need to look for the lvl 3 feats or the perfect balance ED enhancement.

Shintao:

Core 2 - Protection from Tainted Creatures

Add an active portion: Nearby allies become immune to daze, stun, and sleep effects for 30 - 60 seconds originating from tainted creatures.
Cooldown 30 - 60 seconds.

Core 3 - Iron Hand
Add an active portion: Nearby allies gain a +2 untyped bonus to attack, saves, and skills for 30 - 60 seconds.

Core 4 - Argent Fist
Add an active portion: Nearby allies gain a +5 bonus to attack and skills for a short time (15 seconds).

As a personal preference thing I would like 1W of the 2W from To Seek Perfection be moved into Argent fist so that the damage increase is a bit more gradual and not so back loaded.

Henshin:

Core 1 - Riddle of Fire
Add an active portion that is at least the fire finisher and have it auto grant ki attacks that apply the slow and to hit debuff from water & air finishers.

or
add those effects into the corresponding elemental word attacks. For the earth one give it +1 crit multi.

Ninja Spy:

Core 2 - Advanced Ninja Training
Multi selector -
Add an active portion: Grants 15 Ki when used. Cooldown: 15 seconds. To help out shuri monks while the +2 ki on hit gets fixed.
And/Or
Replicate the Shadowstrike (AoE Ranged Attack): Fire a single shot, hitting every enemy in an area around where the shot hits. On hit, opponent must make a Fortitude save or be shaken, like the Fists of Darkness but a ranged AoE and just deals +20% damage.

Touch of Death (Tier5)
Touch of Death should kill living targets on a failed save, on a succesful save it prompts another save for its normal effect, like how phantasmal killer promst 2 consecutive saves.

Shadow Double (Tier5)
Add Tempest's Dance of Death 100% strikethrough instead of 200% and +100% doubleshot. Make it grant a ranged version if the tech nedds it so.
 

pame12

Well-known member
I dont want to be the bearer of bad news here, but
You are aware that they couldn't get the +2 Ki on Ranged/Shuriken attack to work, yea?
How can they not get that to work?
Couldn't they do some compromise maybe of get +1 ki everytime you do an attack animation at least?
 

SpartanKiller13

Why do I have 614 ddo build files
Can confirm they don't work for ranged, and the Ki +2 from Henshin Core 2 (Ki Bolt) also does not work for ranged.
Nuuuuuuu

Well thanks for checking. Hopefully that gets fixed before live :(
I dont want to be the bearer of bad news here, but
You are aware that they couldn't get the +2 Ki on Ranged/Shuriken attack to work, yea?
I wasn't aware until today lol. I assumed they fixed it since P1 where it didn't work, but haven't been on Lamma since.
Given that we can't get the +2 ki on shuri hit would it be possible to get a smaller version of the GMoF KI clicky as like a multi selector? Then if you ever get it working remove the clicky.
This sounds great!
Also acceptable: +1 Passive Ki gen
This does not cut it lol. Maybe +3 Ki gen or something, but on-hit is how you get Ki normally and being left entirely out of that feels bad. Ki THF builds can't even spend their bar fast enough, Ki ranged can't fill it fast enough.

86 attacks/minute x 2 ki/hit is 172 ki/minute in raids lol; in questing IPS gets you more/throw even though you attack less. If AoE attacks work like cleaves than hitting 4 enemies would also be +8 Ki. Probably this is the broken part, were I to guess.

Being stuck in Water stance, Henshin, and/or GMoF is pretty limiting, and for technical reasons only it sounds like. Adding more ki drains without adding some way to get ki feels very unfair lol. Burst window for Shuri now costs 100 ki (10k, Diversion, Shadow Double) and that's without Abundant Step or any of the new-and-improved AoE buffs.
 

zen

Member

Overall Class Adjustments

  1. Remove the combo system and its core components.
    1. This retires the feat-based Elemental combo builders, and the resulting combo finishers. The effects of these abilities have been redistributed into abilities in the Monk trees.
    2. That said, Monks still gain their Stances and your choice of Light vs. Dark Path.
      1. The Light vs. Dark Path choice no longer gives something specific on being taken, but opens up enhancement choices at Tier 3 in each Monk Enhancement Tree.
    3. We are thankful for the feedback about Monk combo moves and finishers in the previous feedback threads; especially as we look into the future, this is valuable feedback. At this time, though, we have made the decision to move forward with retiring the current combo system in U72.

I don't know why you persist in destroying the most unique and engaging aspect of this class that has been around since its inception. I've played DDO on and off for 15 years, and the monk gameplay is what kept me coming back, spending money on new content, etc. I've spent thousands of hours playing the game as a dedicated casual, and hundreds and hundreds of dollars supporting it. I enjoyed building the combos, I enjoyed finding a rhythm for hitting my elemental builders, I enjoyed mentally tracking where I was in a combo to ready for the next finisher. I had fun with prepping a Fire-Light-Fire to buff my leveling partner when she went to handle a trap or lock, a Lightning-Light-Lightning to get us Blur (even if there are a million other sources), a triple-Earth to add some spice to my damage loop, a Water-Light-Water to discount some buffs at the start of the adventure, a triple-Light to pump some cheap healing out. The process was the fun as much as the effects were. Monk was SOLD as being more complex to play. You're taking away all the components so this can be yet another "hit button, get effect" class. Another "just wait for the cooldown" gameplay loop. You're making Monk a class for non-Monks. No. Thank. You. I can save my time, save my money, and save my hard drive space.


Or in short: We are thankful you've heard the feedback and even more thankful you aren't listening. We can now uninstall and forget this game.
 

droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
Your maths falls apart when you take into account the huge hits where bigger crit ranges shine.

Thats not how math works either. Numbers are numbers. Math doesnt "fall apart".

If you have numbers of your own, then of course feel free to share them and show me how the math works. If you have videos, then you can link those too. But I remain unconvinced by you simply telling me the math is wrong, and that everyone else who's always said its a lackluster T5 ability in practice is also wildly wrong too.

Again, if you just qualitatively like it, that's fine, enjoy it. Odds are they wont change it in this Monk update anyway.

But dont come at me hard like you did saying I'm wrong, unless you have something to actually prove it.
 
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